Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[FreeGrace2]

Pretty sure Revelation is a symbolic book, according to the very first verse of it

Quite a presumption, I think. Yes, there is symbolism, but there is a lot that is quite literal.

Rev 1:1 - The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Nothing symbolic here. Jesus revealed ACTUAL FUTURE EVENTS (what must SOON take place) to John, who wrote most of it down.

To dismiss Revelation as all symbolic allows the resuppositioner to make up whatever he/she wants it to say.

What is clear from v.1 is that Revelation is book about the future. The LITERAL future.

The "souls under the altar" are a symbol for the injustice of what was done to the martyrs crying out before God for His vengeance, not disembodied "souls" because they have ceased to exist, and not red and white corpuscles because they got no vocal cords.

They are called souls because they ARE souls. But you can make up any fantasy you want, in order to avoid the painful reality that the verse refutes any notion of sleeping souls.

Plus, I already noted 3 or 4 examples in the Bible of where people went after death. And they weren't sleeping. Or maybe you really do want Jesus to be inviting the thief to a slumber party or something.

If I ignored what Paul said about "naked" and "unclothed" and pretended it didn't exist and offered no explanation for it and pretended it wasn't a third option to your "either/or" scenario...sure, I'd believe as you do. But, I got this little "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" problem.

No, your problem is your dismissal of reality.

Luke 16's a parable, Rev 6 and the fifth seal is as symbolic as Cain's blood crying out. You can't substantiate a doctrine on uninterpreted passages.

Nice examples of what one can make up when the text doesn't suit them.

Really? Was Jesus' soul "at home with the Lord" when He died? No, it was in "hell" aka "the grave" and was "not left in hell" because God resurrected Him.

This is just daft. When Jesus was resurrected, He went to the right hand of His Father in heaven. Paul's comment was directed to human beings, not Jesus. Get a grip or something.

btw, since you brought up Jesus and Hades. The Bible says Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison". Was He sleeping at the podium?

The Gospel of Inconsistency is strong with you, I think.

Such snarky comments reveals the real you.

Jesus didn't say it to him on Thursday, or Saturday, or Sunday, He said it on THAT DAY: "Thief, I say unto you on this Preparation Day while I hang here looking like I'll never keep another promise again........ , ........you will be with me in Paradise." (See how the verse harmonizes with the rest of Scripture when you put that uninspired comma in the right spot?)

How does this support your soul sleep idea? If dead people lie sleeping in the grave until the resurrection, how could the thief be with
Jesus in Paradise on THAT DAY? But you can't answer that, unless you symbolize everything and make up something that suits you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why couldn't David simply be describing the obvious fact that dead people no longer speak? We sure don't hear mumblings in graves, right?
These things are not difficult to understand. Just need a bit more light in. Stop squinting.

Yes, David refered to PEOPLE aka SOULS that no longer speak when dead.

A Soul is the whole Person, the whole Creature, the whole Being.

Error alert. No, the "soul" is the inner being, and NOT the body. The body is material, the soul is immaterial. That's the difference.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why is it so important to the "immortal soul" crowd that the wicked burn for all eternity?

Only because the Bible teaches that in very clear words.

Rev 19:20 - 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

This is the a/c (beast #1) and false prophet (beast #2). They are captured and cast into the lake of fire. Hold that thought.

Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I want to direct your attention to the BIG word above. That word (they) refers to the a/c, the false prophet AND Satan. And what is the result of being cast into the lake of fire? Torment DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.

Nothing about being annihilated into oblivion.

If soul annihilation were true, then it wouldn't matter what anyone believed or did. If a soul ceases to exist, there is no consequence for their behaviors.

Is it the appeal of "exclusivity religion" that is jealously retained by Luciferians and Predestinationalists?

No, it's the appeal of TRUTH that comes straight from the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of course: they've ceased to exist because a Soul comes into existence at the moment the Body and the Breath of Life unite...

Except Rev 10:20 and Rev 20:10 totally destroy your "cease to exist" theory.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Heaven_Bound said:
You don't believe the Lake of Fire is Eternal and Forever?

Short answer: No.

Good to know she doesn't believe the Bible. Both Rev 19:20 and 20:10 say otherwise.

I'll take what the Bible says ALWAYS over what people say.

Your 'longer answer' simply fails to discern Scripture. What WILL BE destroyed is the human body, which is "perishable" according to

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Hint: humans are all born of "perishable seed". That's the body. It WILL perish; be destroyed; be annihilated. At the Second Death.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Phoneman-777 said:
Yes, let's all believe dead saints in heaven have to obey the commands of Satan's witches and appear at their beck and call...SMH

A "familiar spirit" is a DEMON impersonating a dead loved one and is why God told us not to talk with them, the same reason we tell our kids not to talk to strangers. That was not Samuel, for Solomon said of dead Samuel, "the dead know not anything."

I guess it was an evil spirit named Samuel.

Some people will make up stories like the account of a dead Samuel appearing to King Saul is just symbolic for something.

They can't face the reality of the account because it reveals their false doctrine.

And they would rather make up stuff than reject their false doctrine.

 

[kleronomos]

2Corinthians 4:14 Knowing that He which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

2Corinthians 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

2Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

2Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;



2Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2Corinthians 5:5 Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

 

[FreeGrace2]

Believers get ETERNAL LIFE
Unbelievers get DEATH and DESTRUCTION

So then, how one lives and believes doesn't matter since they will simply cease to exist? That's what atheists believe as well.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Maybe you're new to the Christian faith--Revelation is a HIGHLY SYMBOLIC book--and we know that because of the fantastical images which some of them the angel explains--and it tells us that in the very first chapter. You can't take everything so literally, otherwise you miss the truth in its pages.

Get real, for heaven's sake.

Rev 1:1 speaks of literal future events. Just because John was trying to describe things that he had no context for is no reason to make up these stories (fantasies) about ALL of Revelation is "highly symbolic".

That's just a cover to be able to make up whatever the fantaziser wants to believe.

 

[Laura798]

Heaven_Bound said:
You don't believe the Lake of Fire is Eternal and Forever?

Good to know she doesn't believe the Bible. Both Rev 19:20 and 20:10 say otherwise.

I'll take what the Bible says ALWAYS over what people say.

Your 'longer answer' simply fails to discern Scripture. What WILL BE destroyed is the human body, which is "perishable" according to

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Hint: humans are all born of "perishable seed". That's the body. It WILL perish; be destroyed; be annihilated. At the Second Death.

I can easily gauge your spiritual maturity in the way that you truncate phoneman and my postings--you completely and intentionally left out all the verses I quoted and then say the verses I QUOTED are what 'people' say--whatever that means. You remind me of Luther's Roman Catholic Inquistors. He quotes verses and they simply say he is wrong. Why? Because it does not line up with THEIR false doctrine.

There are so few believers who take the Word at its word--the vast majority of church goers ONLY believe what they've been taught and are CHOOSING just as the Pharisees did to stay in willful ignorance and blindness.

Your responses are not carefully constructed or theologically sound--I can't engage with either you or posthuman further as you completely ignore SCRIPTURE itself and would rather cling to the false doctrine you've been taught.

 

[Laura798]

So then, how one lives and believes doesn't matter since they will simply cease to exist? That's what atheists believe as well.

Here you go again--willfully truncating my post and intentionally leaving out the verses I quoted to support my position.

PS--the atheists seem to know more than you do. But they're missing a very important part--that Believers receive the gift of ETERNAL LIFE. (and ONLY the believers)

 

[Laura798]

Get real, for heaven's sake.

Rev 1:1 speaks of literal future events. Just because John was trying to describe things that he had no context for is no reason to make up these stories (fantasies) about ALL of Revelation is "highly symbolic".

That's just a cover to be able to make up whatever the fantaziser wants to believe.

You prove my point here--very poor argument. Ps Ad Hominem attacks do not work to anyone's advantage.

 

[Laura798]

Get real, for heaven's sake.

Rev 1:1 speaks of literal future events. Just because John was trying to describe things that he had no context for is no reason to make up these stories (fantasies) about ALL of Revelation is "highly symbolic".

That's just a cover to be able to make up whatever the fantaziser wants to believe.

(editing timed out--reposting)

[/QUOTE]


You prove my point here-- poor argument. Any mature believer knows Revelation speaks of future events in HIGHLY Symbolic terms--you can't take the representations themselves literally, capisce?

PS And 'fantaziser' and cover up'???

 

[kleronomos]

this world is only the first step in his plan we’re being renewed for this eternal place apart from evil and death with Jesus

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof 7 WHEN THE MORNING STARS SANG TOGETHER AND ALL THE SONS OF GOD SHOUTED FOR JOY? 8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? 9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

The first time my eyes were ever opened to the fact the 'sons of God' were watching THE EARTH being created, it felt like time stood still for a couple moments.

 

[kleronomos]

Maybe not as 'common sense' as it would seem, so a new angle ??

WHAT is the point of receiving our 'eternal' life if WE DON'T indeed receive it? Can the promise of eternal life be TRUTH, if it includes a DEATH for many generations yet to come state of being? Wouldn't that promise need to read a promise of a FUTURE eternal life comes after a period of death/sleep?

Why would the death and resurrection of someone SAVED be the same as for SOMEONE NOT?

Why would dying without sin be treated the same as dying in sin?

Why would the graves have opened when Christ's work was finished?

Who was the 'captivity' that was led away captive and where did they go?

Isn't the 'not waiting' for a future resurrection AND the passing from death to life, being raised up THROUGH Christ, having Him come to meet us, to bring us to the Father, to the mansion He went to prepare , so we could be where He is

ONE OF THE PERKS of BELIEVING and FORGIVENESS and THE GIFT OF SALVATION? (something those who don't believe don't get to receive)

Our Lord and Savior, the Messiah, Lamb of God PAID FOR THE SINS, WASHED US CLEAN, allowed us to DIE without SIN attached to us. (What couldn't the law do? Why was it important FOR THE LAW TO BE CHANGED? Why was it so important to die without sin?)

WHEN WE DIE THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

WE DIE 'WITHOUT SIN'.

WHEN WE DIE WITHOUT SIN,

IT POSSIBLE FOR 'DEATH' TO TAKE HOLD OF US AND BIND US

WE ARE 'UNTOUCHABLE' TO DEATH. CHRIST HAS PAID THE PRICE FOR US.

WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN POWER OVER HIM.

WE HAVE BEEN SET FREE.

WE BECOME LIKE 'THE FIRST ADAM', WITHOUT SIN.

WITHOUT SIN THERE IS NO DEATH. No death means no sleep.

THIS is the beauty of Christianity. This is the beauty of the WORK of Christ done for us. This is why IT WAS KEPT SECRET until it was done or else SATAN would have made sure Christ wasn't rejected and crucified. Instead of ONE Christ in the flesh, ALL were able to come to Faith and the HOLY SPIRIT was able to walk amongst MANY.


The graves were opened and some of those who SLEPT in the dust WENT with CHRIST to where He was and will be returning with HIM IN HIS ARMY as we are soldiers. WE are to put on ARMOR. That is to FIGHT.


THOSE who didn't FOLLOW CHRIST up out of the grave will 'raise up' when JUDGMENT DAY COMES. They have had their chance.


Ever since that day, upon death ALL FLESH GOES TO THE GRAVE but some souls are RAISED UP, and some are bound by death.

THOSE BOUND BY DEATH because they died in sin or unbelief or were deceived or whatever the reasons, the dead will
resurrect when Christ returns.

Those who have died will return with Him, those ALIVE and remaining are CHANGED and MEET UP with the armies of Christ and the Lords Day begins.

Maybe.

 

[kleronomos]

living soul + sin = sentance of death

living soul - sin = eternal life

Jesus blood does what the law could not. FORGIVE. Sin forgiven is NO SIN SO NO DEATH.

 

[John146]

I am gobsmacked that nearly all of you without exception respond without having read the other side's position. It is a pagan belief that ALL souls are immortal--not to mention it is blasphemy as it makes Christ's second coming pointless if everyone goes to their destination without going thru the Judgment--and that believers can enter heaven without their immortal bodies-- and it is to completely ignore the majority of what the bible actually states.

Thanks for your opinions...my bible says otherwise.

You stated that everyone goes to their destination. What are those destinations you speak of?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof 7 WHEN THE MORNING STARS SANG TOGETHER AND ALL THE SONS OF GOD SHOUTED FOR JOY? 8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? 9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

The first time my eyes were ever opened to the fact the 'sons of God' were watching THE EARTH being created, it felt like time stood still for a couple moments.

Those looking through the gospel are still watching creation

Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
Isaiah 48:6‭-‬7 KJ

Maybe not as 'common sense' as it would seem, so a new angle ??

WHAT is the point of receiving our 'eternal' life if WE DON'T indeed receive it? Can the promise of eternal life be TRUTH, if it includes a DEATH for many generations yet to come state of being? Wouldn't that promise need to read a promise of a FUTURE eternal life comes after a period of death/sleep?

Why would the death and resurrection of someone SAVED be the same as for SOMEONE NOT?

Why would dying without sin be treated the same as dying in sin?

Why would the graves have opened when Christ's work was finished?

Who was the 'captivity' that was led away captive and where did they go?

Isn't the 'not waiting' for a future resurrection AND the passing from death to life, being raised up THROUGH Christ, having Him come to meet us, to bring us to the Father, to the mansion He went to prepare , so we could be where He is

ONE OF THE PERKS of BELIEVING and FORGIVENESS and THE GIFT OF SALVATION? (something those who don't believe don't get to receive)

Our Lord and Savior, the Messiah, Lamb of God PAID FOR THE SINS, WASHED US CLEAN, allowed us to DIE without SIN attached to us. (What couldn't the law do? Why was it important FOR THE LAW TO BE CHANGED? Why was it so important to die without sin?)

WHEN WE DIE THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

WE DIE 'WITHOUT SIN'.

WHEN WE DIE WITHOUT SIN,

IT POSSIBLE FOR 'DEATH' TO TAKE HOLD OF US AND BIND US

WE ARE 'UNTOUCHABLE' TO DEATH. CHRIST HAS PAID THE PRICE FOR US.

WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN POWER OVER HIM.

WE HAVE BEEN SET FREE.

WE BECOME LIKE 'THE FIRST ADAM', WITHOUT SIN.

WITHOUT SIN THERE IS NO DEATH. No death means no sleep.

THIS is the beauty of Christianity. This is the beauty of the WORK of Christ done for us. This is why IT WAS KEPT SECRET until it was done or else SATAN would have made sure Christ wasn't rejected and crucified. Instead of ONE Christ in the flesh, ALL were able to come to Faith and the HOLY SPIRIT was able to walk amongst MANY.


The graves were opened and some of those who SLEPT in the dust WENT with CHRIST to where He was and will be returning with HIM IN HIS ARMY as we are soldiers. WE are to put on ARMOR. That is to FIGHT.


THOSE who didn't FOLLOW CHRIST up out of the grave will 'raise up' when JUDGMENT DAY COMES. They have had their chance.


Ever since that day, upon death ALL FLESH GOES TO THE GRAVE but some souls are RAISED UP, and some are bound by death.

THOSE BOUND BY DEATH because they died in sin or unbelief or were deceived or whatever the reasons, the dead will
resurrect when Christ returns.

Those who have died will return with Him, those ALIVE and remaining are CHANGED and MEET UP with the armies of Christ and the Lords Day begins.

Maybe.

“Why would dying without sin be treated the same as dying in sin?”

amen we can die in sin or we can have remission of sins on Christ and die in the lord without sin that’s what makes all the difference in what happens when we pass away in this world

rejectors

“Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Believers

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-4, 6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[John146]

Phoneman-777 said:
Yes, let's all believe dead saints in heaven have to obey the commands of Satan's witches and appear at their beck and call...SMH

A "familiar spirit" is a DEMON impersonating a dead loved one and is why God told us not to talk with them, the same reason we tell our kids not to talk to strangers. That was not Samuel, for Solomon said of dead Samuel, "the dead know not anything."

Some people will make up stories like the account of a dead Samuel appearing to King Saul is just symbolic for something.

They can't face the reality of the account because it reveals their false doctrine.

And they would rather make up stuff than reject their false doctrine.

When you don't take the bible literally, you can make it say anything you want.

 

[kleronomos]

When He returns eternal life will be given to the saved.

Why do we be baptized (for this subject matter)?


Go down into the water WE DIE and we are raised from the water.

WE are made a new creature. We suffer affliction NOW, THEY DON'T. We suffer persecution now, they don't. WHEN WE DIE, they suffer being bound to death WE DON'T.