TONGUES false teaching.

[TheLearner]

Complete and utter nonsense!

stop at post 21

Yes, I believe all the gifts are for today including tongues. But, when no one is taking turns and there are more than 3, it is all of the flesh, not of God. What is going on must be tested. Thank God for spellcheck

 

[CS1]

I WANT TO BELIEVE

I went to several Pentecostal and Charismatic churches for the first 25 years of my Christian walk (and 15 years prior), including: UPC, Independent Pentecostal, Apostolic Faith, Assemblies of God, Independent Charismatic, and Vineyard Movement. I spoke in tongues as it is taught by all those denominations. But after 45 years of studying the Bible, growing spiritually, and experiencing God, I found that I was deceived, and that what I was practicing was not of divine origin.

That knowledge did not come suddenly. But looking back on that experience, not once did I hear an authentic Biblical tongues in which a real and intelligible message was conveyed. Every time I heard tongues and interpretation, they did not have a semblance of comparison. I listened to this video:

which sounds like a language with a translation. Can someone with linguistic knowledge prove to me that it is? Otherwise, I have to assume that it's a Big Fish story.

I also listened to this video:

It is unconvincing. The point of it is that the speech center of the man's brain was inactive while he was speaking in tongues. DUH!! It means he wasn't speaking anything that had meaning. One could say he was just moving his mouth and making noise, so of course the speech center of his brain was inactive. So it doesn't prove anything at all.

The problem with "sounding like..." doesn't make it true or authentic. In order for me (and millions of other Christians like me) to know that modern tongues (secular term) is authentic and of God is to show its miraculous nature. Just claiming it is miraculous doesn't make it so. Neither does debating scripture and opinions cut the mustard, as 47 pages of this thread shows.

What needs to happen is for someone with authentic Biblical tongues to make a video of them speaking in tongues, and let it be examined by linguists who have the ability to decode the message. Like the video above, tongues and interpretation would really be great, in which a linguist can figure out the message in tongues and verify that the interpretation is correct.

What I would like is for people to stop being lazy about this issue. If people started recording their tongues and transliterating what they said, and presented it to linguists for translation, think about how the churches could be edified. Pentecostals and Charismatics (P/Cs) everywhere would be greatly encouraged that this activity is proven miraculous. There would be no more excuses for cessationists to reject it, so it would bring unity to Christians everywhere. False tongues would be exposed and that would shut the mouths of pretenders and those deceived.

But according to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Tongues-men-...eywords=samarin&qid=1561690737&s=books&sr=1-1
modern tongues is a pseudo-language. It sounds like a language, but lacks structure and vocabulary to convey any meaning. It also states that non-Christians can do it, and in fact, anyone can do it, if they try hard enough.

And according to P/C doctrine, every Christian could/should/may speak in tongues. The doctrinal statements go something like this: Every Christian can receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues, and speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. So if we examine these statements carefully, there is a clear assumption that anyone can speak in tongues (if baptized in the Spirit). This implies that anyone can do it, in fact, it is the expectation of P/Cs that every Christian ought to have this experience.

Yet, it is clearly not a Biblical expectation. The apostle Paul taught that the Holy Spirit is the one who decides who gets what gift, even if he said "desire earnestly the best gifts." Desiring a gift doesn't guarantee getting it, because it is given by God, not taken by people. Yet, it remains a P/C expectation, to the extent that it is a dogma in those denominations.

What Kavik said in his post here: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/tongues-false-teaching.196454/page-12#post-4451321
about the origin of the P/C movement is correct, and I have read the same historical account. IMO if P/Cs would honestly examine the roots of their movement, they would question the authenticity of what they have.

I claim that modern tongues is a human ability, and is not of divine origin. Let someone prove me wrong. Post a video of yourself speaking in tongues, and also post a transliteration of what you spoke in that video. Let's get some linguistic evaluation of it, to find out if there is a real message in it, or if it's merely random syllables that convey no meaning.

As long as people are kept in the dark, the controversy will never be resolved. Christians will continue to be divided on the issue. Counterfeit tongues will continue to cover up any authentic gift by virtue of sheer noise. So then, why continue to keep people in the dark about it? Is it too much work? Is there a fear of exposure, that it might show that "The Emperor Has No Clothes"? Is this why P/Cs want tongues to remain in the realm of the mysterious?

I get that P/Cs have a vested interest in keeping people in the dark about it. The Bible says "he who comes to the light does so, that it might be shown that what he has done has been done through God." So, if anyone wants to show that his gift of tongues is done through God, then the way to do that is the way I suggested above. But if people don't want to do that, it begs the question 'why'.

Because if modern tongues is not miraculous and not of God, then anyone who does it and claims it is a gift of the Spirit is taking the Lord's name in vain. It's just like someone claiming to be a prophet and saying "thus saith the Lord" when the Lord did not speak to them - that person takes the Lord's name in vain. So it is with someone who speaks random syllables with no inherent meaning, and says "it's a miraculous gift of the Spirit". Such a person is taking the name of the Lord in vain, because it is neither miraculous, nor a gift of the Spirit. Just because a person sincerely believes that what they are speaking is the authentic gift of tongues, doesn't make it so, and it doesn't get them off the hook about taking the Lord's name in vain.

Come on, people. Stop the laziness. Do the work. Prove the miraculous nature of speaking in tongues. Real healings have been documented. I don't mean Big Fish Stories. I mean pictures, X-rays, before/after comparisons, doctors examining and diagnosing, and documenting the healings. Why can't this be done with tongues? The only documented evidence I've seen is such as in the book I referenced "Tongues of Men and Angels," that shows the marked non-miraculous nature of it. Let's get busy on the other side, doing the same evaluation of the authentic gift!

Anecdotal evidence is not enough. It's not enough that people have testimonies about it. P/Cs have been historically notorious for Big Fish stories. Hearsay is not valid evidence. Just because you believe a story doesn't make it true. What is valid evidence in this case is videos, transliterations, and linguistic evaluations. I dare say that every video posted on youtube of people speaking in tongues is not authentic Biblical tongues. Prove me wrong. Do the work.

The idea of your experience and 25 years as you say in Pentacostel denominations and was deceived I find to be untruthful.

My experience has been longer and nothing of what you have said, however, foolishness is in all churches, you should have been taught that. There are no perfect churches because there are no perfect people.

The word of God is the authority on the topic, not yours or my experiences. You also are trying to validate the supernatural with human reasoning and secular humanism.


as you said :

"What needs to happen is for someone with authentic Biblical tongues to make a video of them speaking in tongues, and let it be examined by linguists who have the ability to decode the message. "


Laughing hard right now! I love how you state you were deceived yet you are going to try and have aman who knows languages to decode the Holy Spirit's Gifts? You can't disprove the gift with the word of God? As many of you have said using 1cor 13:8-10 which was debunked.

NOW you are using witch doctors to decode The Holy Spirit? Then claim Penacostels are devil's and deceived.

The Book of Acts and Mark 16, and 1cor 12 through 14 chapters and John chapter 14-16

from The Lord Jesus, Peter, Paul and even Old Testament Prophets. IN addition to the recorded working of the Spirit of God Known as the Holy Spirit when he came upon prophets, judges, kings, and priests, and rulers.
All were used by the Holy Spirit when HE came upon them and as He does today because Jesus said HE would be with US and IN us. John 14 and 15 chapters.

You are still deceived, and secular humanism and linguist and your voodoo doctors with not change that.

 

[CS1]

I said: my experience with this movements is against what is written in 1. COR. 12,11.
You should give back what I have written correct!

your understanding of one verse which is part of unit chapters of 1cor 12 through 14 you have been told them many times, you are just wrong and arrogant. You know nothing of the movement. And your experience does not make the word of God to no effect. You are more secular in your biblical approach.

 

[CS1]

14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Whenever I've read 1 Corinthians I was always under the impression that by "an unknown tongue" this meant simply saying words without understanding the meaning behind them
I'm not all that familiar with the idea of the Pentecostal church, but I remember my mom telling me about it before, how people will speak what seems like "gibberish" and not a known language, and claim that this is of the holy spirit in them speaking
I do not believe this is at all what is meant in these verses
And I do not want to offend anyone though I think those that do the "gibberish" speaking are saying at the least that they are spiritually confused and desire to speak with their spirit
If I were to speak with my spirit alone, it is simply like spiritual rumination for example, it is messy and to others would seem loony, there are loose ends and no conclusions
That is why the understanding is important

the word gibberish is not in the word of God. the tower of Babel account if you read the Hebrew never said to suggest what they were speaking was not a real language. God Confounded them meaning changed them. Those who spoke them did not know what was being said.

many who read 1cor 12 , 13, and 14 chapters of 1corthinains fail you realize the context is not in just one verse here or there. they are known as unit chapters. all three chapters must be kept in their context both Cessationists and Pentecostals make this mistake.

 

[CS1]

this is so sad as many do not really know what the word of God says about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Both sides are wrong and addressing from a bias, as I am sure those will say I do too.
Yet those who are supporters of
cessationism

do not use the word of God other than 1cor 13:8-10 to teach the gifts have stopped. That worked for them until those who they thought were ignorant really studied and found they were untruthful with the text. So to make up for the false teaching they used the foolish abuses of the gifts of the Holy Spirit by those on TV, Youtube, and social media, to distract from the truth they could not disprove the Tongues are for today. They did not stop there. They conjured up secular humanism and used today's voodoo doctors, and sought middle eastern pagan practices, and tried to attach that to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Doing so shouting False tongues, and gifts from the devil!


Cessationist uses everything but the word of God to teach the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today.

1. change the name to modern tongues ( secular humanist term)
2. linguists who are not theologians but most are agnostic or non-believers wow, all to disprove the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
3. They seek out pagan practices to associate with the gifts of the Holy Spirit
4. look outside the word of God to disprove the word of God
5. tout their personal experience as authoritative because they had a negative experience from those who abuse the gifts.

This is a shortlist. When asked the hard question from the word of God they can only say why don't we see it today? Why don't you?

I have many times. When Cessationist are told this very quickly they say " show me " send a video" etc....

LOl then have the audacity to use the verse where Jesus said
"Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah.” Then Jesus left them and went away."


many have tried to attach that verse to Pentacostels when actually it is speaking to those like the Pharisees. Not to those who believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today.

The verse we use from the Lord is Mark 16:17-18

"These signs shall follow them that Believe"

I will ask you Biblical Cessionist one question to see if you can find in the word of God why the gifts of the Holy Spirit all of them were used for.


Pentacostel / Charimatics


We share much of this error because we did not speak out with the foolishness we saw that caused much scoffing, mocking, and profaning. We stood by as those who barked like a dog, seeking gold dust, and using ear devices to make the gifts of the Holy Spirit seem real. We stood by as these abuses went on and said nothing to correct it. Allowing dishonor to come to the Holy Spirit which is as close to Blasphemy as one can GET! NO MORE!!! we must as men and women of God call out those who do such things and return to Order and discipline. Remove the damnable smoke machines, laser lights, and this false use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit to replace A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE OR PAST ADDICTION to have a feeling that is only superficial.

Chasing after and experience over Drawing Closer to Christ. FOOLISHNESS!!! God will hold each of us accountable. We MUST RETURN TO OUR FIRST LOVE!!! Then to our first works. The Gospel the full Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. That calls sin, sin, and hell real, and Jesus as the only answer. This is the church's Mandate from the LORD!!!! how is Business? The Lord's Business? Be a faithful servant. In Jesus' name amen.

 

[Aidan1]

your understanding of one verse which is part of unit chapters of 1cor 12 through 14 you have been told them many times, you are just wrong and arrogant. You know nothing of the movement. And your experience does not make the word of God to no effect. You are more secular in your biblical approach.

One verse sometimes can be important. I have learned that ignoring verses for to create an certain view is no correct bible teaching.
I know enough about the teachings from the pentecostal and charismatic movements.
Many of them told me what i have to believe and what not.
Before 1901 speaking in tongues was not given in the churches. It was found in cults.

If it would be taught according the scripture, then this gift would be equal treatet like all other spiritual gifts. But speaking in tongues became a measure if someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit or not.
This teaching i cant find in the bible. Special if we talk about the church of corinth which was blamed from Paul as childish and fleshly.
With terrible sins.

And in compare with prophecie, Paul clear, said that a Christian should prefer the gift of prophecie more then the gift of speaking in tongues.

 

[Pureness]

ignorant comment as unusual. 1cor chapter 12 through `14 do not teach all believers will not get this gift it teaches all gifts given to ALL are for the better meant of all. You have a bias and have a bad habit of attacking Pentacostels yet can't provide one Biblical verse to support your position. You get called on this every time.

Your view isn't better than the next persons view. Lets not name call. Lets agree to disagree. Saying somone view is ignorant because they don't agree with you is absolutely absurd

 

[CS1]

One verse sometimes can be important. I have learned that ignoring verses for to create an certain view is no correct bible teaching.
I know enough about the teachings from the pentecostal and charismatic movements.
Many of them told me what i have to believe and what not.
Before 1901 speaking in tongues was not given in the churches. It was found in cults.

If it would be taught according the scripture, then this gift would be equal treatet like all other spiritual gifts. But speaking in tongues became a measure if someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit or not.
This teaching i cant find in the bible. Special if we talk about the church of corinth which was blamed from Paul as childish and fleshly.
With terrible sins.

And in compare with prophecie, Paul clear, said that a Christian should prefer the gift of prophecie more then the gift of speaking in tongues.

you were shown that to be wrong in many other threads on this topic you like to troll. Yet even in this post, you made you did not use one biblical reference only your opinion. You are stuck in 1901, yet The book of Acts and 1cor chapter 12 through 14 and Gal 5 were all Connonized As was Mark 16 . You can't find it in the Bible because you don't want to see it because you have bias.

Again " many of them" ? I do not believe you, Those who are Pentecostals al have statements of faith, not opinion or what many have said but in black and white for you to read. They provide Biblical references. Take it or leave it.

I do not care if you agree or not nor am I even trying to make agree, I am only addressing your false opinion and lack of Biblical support for your comments. I have and many here have provided the text and verses of scripture to support our position on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, you do not accept them, fine. I leave you to it.

 

[CS1]

Your view isn't better than the next persons view. Lets not name call. Lets agree to disagree. Saying somone view is ignorant because they don't agree with you is absolutely absurd

Acts 1:8
John chapters 14, 15
1cor chapter 12-14

please tell me what you know of them

thank you

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Your view isn't better than the next persons view. Lets not name call. Lets agree to disagree. Saying somone view is ignorant because they don't agree with you is absolutely absurd

Can 2 Interpretations of One Teaching be correct?
Is the Holy Spirit confused to give 2 opposing Meanings?

 

[Pureness]

Can 2 Interpretations of One Teaching be correct?
Is the Holy Spirit confused to give 2 opposing Meanings?

You in a world of lost if you stuck on 2 opposing meanings., when in reality there's multiple opposing meanings. Expand your brain a little more dear

 

[Heaven_Bound]

You in a world of lost if you stuck on 2 opposing meanings., when in reality there's multiple opposing meanings. Expand your brain a little more dear

There is One Truth!
How can there be several interpretations of One Truth?

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Jesus is God!

Is Jesus God because that is my personal Truth, or because, it is the Word of God's Truth?

 

[CS1]

You in a world of lost if you stuck on 2 opposing meanings., when in reality there's multiple opposing meanings. Expand your brain a little more dear

can you answer my question of the verses I provided, please? I think you just did what you accused me of

Acts 1:8
John chapters 14, 15
1cor chapter 12-14

please tell me what you know of them

thank you

 

[Pureness]

can you answer my question of the verses I provided, please? I think you just did what you accused me of

Acts 1:8
John chapters 14, 15
1cor chapter 12-14

please tell me what you know of them

thank you

This isn't a test dear. I shouldn't have to answer anything. We share views hun, not give quizzes dear. God bless and happy new year

 

[Pureness]

There is One Truth!
How can there be several interpretations of One Truth?

The same way there's a new testament and a old testament

 

[CS1]

This isn't a test dear. I shouldn't have to answer anything. We share views hun, not give quizzes dear. God bless and happy new year

test ? you don't have a biblical position or thought on the context of the word of God and the verses below concerning this topic? Or is it you just don't know? Please what is your understanding of these verses?

Acts 1:8
John chapters 14, 15
1cor chapter 12-14

please tell me what you know of them

thank you

 

[Heaven_Bound]

The same way there's a new testament and a old testament

And the One Truth about both covenants, they connect through the Death of Christ for Eternal Salvation. Christ's Death goes back to Adam and goes forward until the Second Coming.

 

[Pureness]

test ? you don't have a biblical position or thought on the context of the word of God and the verses below concerning this topic? Or is it you just don't know? Please what is your understanding of these verses?

Acts 1:8
John chapters 14, 15
1cor chapter 12-14

please tell me what you know of them

thank you

Ill be lying if I sit here and say I know the entire bible. I'm here to learn not go back and forth with you about what I know and what I don't know. If you don't want actually teach and be genuine maybe you should leave and pet people who actually want to teach take your spot. God bless

 

[Pureness]

And the One Truth about both covenants, they connect through the Death of Christ for Eternal Salvation. Christ's Death goes back to Adam and goes forward until the Second Coming.

So why was a new version of a old version made? Never did understand that