TONGUES false teaching.

[presidente]

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible to suggest that angels have a different language (perhaps they communicate telepathically amongst each other).

Every recorded instance in the Bible shows them using human language (Hebrew or Aramaic).

You left out Greek.

The problem with your line of reasoning is that in every incidence in scripture of angels communicating to humans, they were communicating to humans. Humans understand human languages, so they spoke human languages. As for angelic languages.... we know little about that.

Scripture says nothing about angels communicating with each other telepathically. You do not have a problem with that idea. But scripture suggests the idea of tongues of angels, and you have a problem with that.

Those who make this point all seem to be reactionary...trying to take a firm stance against the existence of tongues of angels to form some theological position on speaking in tongues. This is not proper exegesis.

So Paul was simply speaking in a hyperbole -- just to make the point that even something that bizarre would be meaningless without charity (agape).

The rest of the arguments, most of them at least, are undeniably possible extremes. It is possible to give all away and to give one's body to be burned. As for having all faith to remove mountains, Greek can be looser about the word 'all', and it is possible to have faith to remove mountains. If Christ meant His words about that literally, then it is literally possible to move mountains and if it were figurative then it is possible to figuratively move mountains.

Paul suggests the possibility of tongues of angels, so we should be open to that. The idea that speaking in tongues IS tongues of angels is a weird idea held to be a few Charismatics I encountered, but not a standard Pentecostal position or historical Pentecostal position. Pentecostals would make some room for the idea that an individual tongue might be tongues of angels because Paul suggested it. Or that seems fairly typical on the occasions I have discussed it with Pentecostals.

 

[JaumeJ]

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Yes, it does.

But the rest of your post leads me to believe that you were attempting to say the opposite.

It is the reality, however, that 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 is not something that I have interpreted according to a pre-conceived notion. I have actually pulled out from the text what is inherent in the text (exegesis). I am not reading my own ideas into the text (eisegesis).

Angels have their own language, but 1 Corinthians 13:1 isn't saying Paul or anyone else could speak an angelic language. You can use words like exegesis all day long; but if your exegesis is faulty it mans nothing.

 

[ResidentAlien]

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become as sounding brass or a clashing cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I give away all my possessions to feed the poor, and though I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing."—1 Corinthians 13:1-3

Look at all the parts in bold. Did Paul know all mysteries and all knowledge? No, he didn't. Did he have all faith so as to remove mountains? I don't know of even one mountain he moved. Did he give away all his possessions to feed the poor? No again; he didn't even teach that. He taught equality, not that everyone should give away all they owned. Did he give his body up to be burned? Of course not.

So if all the others are hyperbole (exaggerations for effect) why would the first one be the one and only example of something Paul actually did?

 

[justbyfaith]

Angels have their own language, but 1 Corinthians 13:1 isn't saying Paul or anyone else could speak an angelic language. You can use words like exegesis all day long; but if your exegesis is faulty it mans nothing.

I would disagree with you there; I believe that Paul, in referring to himself as one who might speak in the tongues of men and of angels, is saying that people with the gift of tongues might even speak in the tongues of angels.

I don't find any scripture that prohibits human beings from speaking in the tongues of angels as the result of having the spiritual gift of tongues, at the very least.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men
a very gentle and caring way of saying DON'T BE STUPID.
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not
Them who believe not? Believe not what? In god? Jesus? in aliens? In people that speak unintelligible speech? Where is this written? Isaiah. A Prophet.
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
In the context of Isaiah, God's "stammering lips and unknown tongues" are from Assyrians going around conquering.
"this is the rest" refers to Isaiah's PROPHECIES which the rulers DID NOT BELIEVE the WORD of the LORD spoken to them.
Foreign Tongues (INVADERS) are a sign for people who do not believe THE PROPHETS OR PROPHECY. That's why Paul goes on to say....
but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

TONGUES are NOT "the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest" OR "the refreshing".
those things refer to the WORD OF GOD spoken by PROPHECY.

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? This nutty behavior drives people away, because the "church" is talking like FOREIGN INVADERS. A sign of JUDGEMENT ... A BAD SIGN. It is the OPPOSITE of EDIFICATION.

The only people that "speaking in tongues" is miraculous to, are the people speaking... unless there is an interpretation. Otherwise you look nuts.
THAT IS WHY YOU DON"T PUBLICLY SPEAK IN TONGUES WITHOUT AN INTERPRETATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?
Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.
Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.
But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.
For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

 

[Pureness]

To me that tongue speaking is a bit too much for me because I want to know what is being said. And again I'm speaking for myself

 

[justbyfaith]

TONGUES are NOT "the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest" OR "the refreshing".
those things refer to the WORD OF GOD spoken by PROPHECY.

I beg to differ.

Isa 28:11, For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12, To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Granted, in the immediate context it speaks of learning the Bible line upon line, precept upon precept;

But you would have to show how that connects to Isaiah 28:12.

I believe that a very strong case can be made that v.12 is referring back to v.11.

 

[justbyfaith]

In the context of Isaiah, God's "stammering lips and unknown tongues" are from Assyrians going around conquering.

In the context of the whole of scripture, "stammering lips and unknown tongues" is referring to the gift of tongues (for 1 Corinthians 14:21 refers back to this passage).

 

[SomeDisciple]

In the context of the whole of scripture, "stammering lips and unknown tongues" is referring to the gift of tongues (for 1 Corinthians 14:21 refers back to this passage).

Yeah, it refers back, but speaking in tongues is not the fulfillment of this prophecy. Paul is referring back to it to explain why people shouldn't speak in tongues 100 people at a time, and without interpretation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yeah, it refers back, but speaking in tongues is not the fulfillment of this prophecy. Paul is referring back to it to explain why people shouldn't speak in tongues 100 people at a time, and without interpretation.

I disagree with you there; but of course I have the gift of praying in tongues; so I know that it is indeed the refreshing.

If you don't, then I can see why you might want to look at these verses differently than I do.

And of course it does say in scripture that

Isa 28:12, To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

So I can see how, as a fulfillment of that prophecy, you would not be inclined to hear this truth that tongues is the refreshing.

I know that most unbelievers, when they hear others speak in tongues, get convicted to the core.

At least, that is how it was with me before I got saved.

So, not being the one who is actually speaking in tongues, unbelievers who are privy to hear will not experience the refreshing as does the person who is actually speaking in tongues. For we are talking about different people here.

Just because you feel convicted does not mean that we don't feel the uttermost joy when we pray in our prayer language.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Isa 28:12, To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

I don't live in Ephraim, and I was never conquered by Assyrians, so "they" doesn't refer to me. Nice try.

If you don't, then I can see why you might want to look at these verses differently than I do

I look at them in their historical context- no where in the scripture can I find it where it says that the gift of tongues is even a second fullfillment of this prophecy, let alone the primary fullfillment.

I know that most unbelievers, when they hear others speak in tongues, get convicted to the core

No, it's not even close to conviction- it's confusion, which God is not the author of.

Just because you feel convicted does not mean that we don't feel the uttermost joy when we pray in our prayer language.

Oh, no... I'm sure you do. I have nothing against speaking in tongues if it's actually done according to the scripture.


Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

 

[SomeDisciple]

And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

There's our times of refreshing. Not much talk about tongues, and a whole lot of talk about hearing Jesus- who, praise the lord, can speak the language where I live.

So if all the others are hyperbole (exaggerations for effect) why would the first one be the one and only example of something Paul actually did?

You know, I never even thought of it this way before. I don't really have a problem with the existence of tongues of angels, or a gift therof... but when you put it this way, it does make me wonder why we would even speak a tongue of angels. (I mean... how would you even know that it's an angelic tongue, unless you know every human language?? (Google says there are roughly 6500) Some people would say it's intercessory prayer.
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
But Idk if "groanings which cannot be uttered" even describes a tongue at all, let alone suggests a tongue of angels.

 

[justbyfaith]

The passage begins in Isaiah 28:9...

Isa 28:9, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10, For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11, For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12, To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13, But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

It is at the beginning of this verse that a new thought begins to be established.

 

[CS1]

Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men
a very gentle and caring way of saying DON'T BE STUPID.
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not
Them who believe not? Believe not what? In god? Jesus? in aliens? In people that speak unintelligible speech? Where is this written? Isaiah. A Prophet.
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
In the context of Isaiah, God's "stammering lips and unknown tongues" are from Assyrians going around conquering.
"this is the rest" refers to Isaiah's PROPHECIES which the rulers DID NOT BELIEVE the WORD of the LORD spoken to them.
Foreign Tongues (INVADERS) are a sign for people who do not believe THE PROPHETS OR PROPHECY. That's why Paul goes on to say....
but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

TONGUES are NOT "the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest" OR "the refreshing".
those things refer to the WORD OF GOD spoken by PROPHECY.

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? This nutty behavior drives people away, because the "church" is talking like FOREIGN INVADERS. A sign of JUDGEMENT ... A BAD SIGN. It is the OPPOSITE of EDIFICATION.

The only people that "speaking in tongues" is miraculous to, are the people speaking... unless there is an interpretation. Otherwise you look nuts.
THAT IS WHY YOU DON"T PUBLICLY SPEAK IN TONGUES WITHOUT AN INTERPRETATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?
Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.
Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.
But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.
For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

most of what you used for scripture was out of context. You don't understand all the gifts of the Holy Spirit Edify, exhort, and comfort.

in addition, if you read 1cor 14 tongues and interpretation are equal to prophesying. Paul said prophesying is greater than one who speaks in tongues UNLESS there is an interpretation. And Paul also said those who speak in tongues without an interpretation are to continue to do so, but quietly to themselves why? Very simply those who speak in tongues do not speak to men but to God.

Those who nitpick a few verses here and there when you should know the full context of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are in all three chapters of 1cor 12 through 14. You have bias.
You don't stay in the context of the unit chapters and go off into some kind of secular explanation of the text. And remove the supernature context of the gifts of the Holy Spirit because your intellect is unlearned.

You amplify the words " DON'T BE STUPID. "

and you should not be.

 

[presidente]

And Paul also said those who speak in tongues without an interpretation are to continue to do so, but quietly to themselves why? Very simply those who speak in tongues do not speak to men but to God.

Where does say to speak 'quietly to themselves' in tongues. Do you mean totally quietly, in their mind, or kind of mumbling? I've seen both practices in the Pentecostal movement.

Let him keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God could be interpreted to mean to speak some times when he is not in the church/assembly, since he must keep silent in the church if there is no interpreter.

I've been in some A/Gs where you don't see people praying in tongues in the meeting. You hear a tongue, followed by an interpretation, maybe two or three of them. There are also churches where people all pray in tongues a the same time. Some of these are churches where everyone prays in English at the same time, too, out loud.

People speaking in tongues all at the same time if it isn't supposed to be a 'message' still has the same affect on unbelievers. They can still think you are crazy. I've seen the look on visitor's faces.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I don't find any scripture that prohibits human beings from speaking in the tongues of angels as the result of having the spiritual gift of tongues, at the very least.

I don't find any scriptures prohibiting humans from jumping off a skyscraper and flying either. You want to be the one to try it out?

 

[CS1]

Where does say to speak 'quietly to themselves' in tongues. Do you mean totally quietly, in their mind, or kind of mumbling? I've seen both practices in the Pentecostal movement.

Let him keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God could be interpreted to mean to speak some times when he is not in the church/assembly, since he must keep silent in the church if there is no interpreter.

I've been in some A/Gs where you don't see people praying in tongues in the meeting. You hear a tongue, followed by an interpretation, maybe two or three of them. There are also churches where people all pray in tongues a the same time. Some of these are churches where everyone prays in English at the same time, too, out loud.

People speaking in tongues all at the same time if it isn't supposed to be a 'message' still has the same affect on unbelievers. They can still think you are crazy. I've seen the look on visitor's faces.

Where? I will show you in 1cor 14:28,

28 "But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. "


I don't what you have seen, You asked where it is I have provided from the Very word of God.

 

[ResidentAlien]

(I mean... how would you even know that it's an angelic tongue, unless you know every human language??

That's a good point I've never thought of. Has anyone studied "angelic" and know if it's angelic or not? I'm sure there are those out there who will say they've spoken with angels and know their language.

But Idk if "groanings which cannot be uttered" even describes a tongue at all, let alone suggests a tongue of angels.

True. Something obvious that's usually overlooked in this passage is it says "cannot be uttered."

 

[CS1]

Where does say to speak 'quietly to themselves' in tongues. Do you mean totally quietly, in their mind, or kind of mumbling? I've seen both practices in the Pentecostal movement.

Let him keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God could be interpreted to mean to speak some times when he is not in the church/assembly, since he must keep silent in the church if there is no interpreter.

I've been in some A/Gs where you don't see people praying in tongues in the meeting. You hear a tongue, followed by an interpretation, maybe two or three of them. There are also churches where people all pray in tongues a the same time. Some of these are churches where everyone prays in English at the same time, too, out loud.

People speaking in tongues all at the same time if it isn't supposed to be a 'message' still has the same affect on unbelievers. They can still think you are crazy. I've seen the look on visitor's faces.

I don't care about an experience I'm sure you have seen much, however, 1cor 14:28 is in the church setting at the text says.