How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Absolutely]

Actually David you are--I sent you the 4 posts that I made which clearly show we cannot go to heaven before the judgment--and you are ignoring all of them--and if anyone is fighting the truth it is you.

Rev 14 DIRECTLY refutes that assumption.

 

[Absolutely]

As another P.S. to my post (I forgot to add, to that overall point)...


2 Thessalonians 2:13 [to the Church which is His body] ... as some versions have it -


English Standard Version
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord,
because God chose [*G138 - heilato / haireo] you
as the firstfruits to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit
and belief in the truth.


International Standard Version
At all times we are obligated to thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord,
because God chose [*G138 - heilato / haireo] you
to be the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit
and through faith in the truth.




[note what *G138 ^ "chose / hath chosen" says... (under "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance") - "Probably akin to airo [G142]" (see that word - G138 - https://biblehub.com/greek/138.htm ; G142 - https://biblehub.com/greek/142.htm ]

Good find
I may borrow that.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes but God Shows the Rapture before the 666 inquisition begins

yes

Pretrib rapture as Jesus declared

 

[Absolutely]

^ "3 that day [from v.2's Subject] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and the man of sin be revealed..."


When Paul REPEATS this SEQUENCE THREE TIMES in this passage, he is not changing Subjects (amongst those THREE TIMES)

Not only that,
But " revealed" 3 times

Not ;
*seated
*or in power
*or ruling
*or making war with saints

ONLY SAYS "REVEALED"

SOMETHING TAKEN/REMOVED...THEN REVEALED....
3 TIMES

No postrib will ever introduce our verses.

Conversely we HONESTLY embrace their verses.

 

[DavidTree]

^ "3 that day [from v.2's Subject] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and the man of sin be revealed..."


When Paul REPEATS this SEQUENCE THREE TIMES in this passage, he is not changing Subjects (amongst those THREE TIMES)

AMEN - The Sequence IS and ALWAYS WAS from the BEGINNING from GENESIS
A.) GOD = Genesis ch1
B.) Man made in His Image
C.) Satan/Sin = Tribulation = Genesis 3:6-19
Da.) The antichrists come to earth Gen ch6
Db.) Enoch the 7th from Adam = Facing the greatest tribulation the world had ever seen as Enoch face to face with the fallen angels.
No other Prophet and no other man went face to face with the fallen angels but ONE = the Lord Jesus Christ = Matt ch477
Enoch 7th walked with God and was not for God took him = Who do we know that is a Perfect 7 and walked with God?
Enoch prophesied = "The LORD Comes, His Coming with thousands x thousands of Saints" = Jude
F.) Great Tribulation upon earth = Genesis ch6
Now when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took as wives whomever they chose.
So the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days shall be 120 years.”
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and afterward as well—when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men. And they bore them children who became the mighty men of old, men of renown.
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time. And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, “I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”
G.) GRACE = Noah, however, found favor(Grace) in the eyes of the LORD.
H.) Noah battles thru Tribulation and builds the Ark
I.) His Coming = Noah enters the Ark and the LORD shuts the Door = Matt 25:1-13
J.) JESUS who delivers us from Wrath

AMEN

 

[DavidTree]

You just pointed out " with"

AMEN = the Saints who died are in Heaven WITH JESUS NOW = Right Now

Are you coming over for a FRESH Ground Organic Bean Coffee = i am makng it right now = we can be together and pray and fellowship

 

[Absolutely]

Ac arrives on white horse....
Postribs declare they have been looking for him


Jesus comes at night for his bride... Pretribbers declare thank God we prayed to be counted worthy to escape the gt.as instructed by Jesus.

Where do you put your pearls?

 

[Absolutely]

There's no issue being presented here.

He is correctly saying postrib rapture is impossible.

 

[Absolutely]

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.



"will not precede" nullifies "at the same time"

"the dead in Christ rise FIRST" nullifies "at the same time"

"After that, we who are alive and remain are caught up" nullifies "at the same"

Now if you want to say that immediately after the resurrection the rapture will occur = AMEN

The only point i can see you trying to erroneously make, is that the meeting in the air does not proceed to heaven.?
Because they meet in the air they are together. So the Dead Rise first and those that are alive and remain are taking up together....to heaven

Together

 

[DavidTree]

Not only that,
But " revealed" 3 times

Not ;
*seated
*or in power
*or ruling
*or making war with saints

ONLY SAYS "REVEALED"

SOMETHING TAKEN/REMOVED...THEN REVEALED....
3 TIMES

No postrib will ever introduce our verses.

Conversely we HONESTLY embrace their verses.

YES AMEN = His Coming will NOT come UNTIL the falling away/departure and the man of sin is revealed

Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will DEPART from the faith............1 Timothy 4:1

This is the Apostle Paul who, once again, states that the Holy Spirit is warning everyone to be on guard of the coming Departure from the faith which will usher in false teachings.

Second Witness is the Apostle John = John 2:18-19

The only point i can see you trying to erroneously make, is that the meeting in the air does not proceed to heaven.?
Because they meet in the air they are together. So the Dead Rise first and those that are alive and remain are taking up together....to heaven

Together

Does it specifically say they are taken to Heaven or that they will forever be with the LORD?

 

[Absolutely]

Thanks, I think our superior wisdom comes from studying His Word with eyes and ears wide open.

the difference is i have test fitted your verses.

If you were wise you would not be scattering verses off the table.

More verses= better.

 

[DavidTree]

OK HERE IS THE RAPTURE AGAIN!!

VOICE LIKE THE SOUND OF A TRUMPET SAYS "COME UP HERE"
​

Rev 4:1 (((After these things))) I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first (((voice))) which I had heard, (((like the sound of a trumpet))) speaking with me, (((said, “Come up here))), and I will show you (((what must take place (((after these things.”))) 2 Immediately JOHN was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.

There are (17) "SEVEN"/S THAT LEAD ALL THE WAY TO THE THRONE

! ! !Follow the "seven"s to the throne! ! !

Rev 1:20 “As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and ((((the seven lampstands are the seven churches.))))​

Seven Golden Lampstands = Seven Churches = Seven Lamps of Fire in front of the Throne = Seven Spirits of God = Seven Eyes and Seven Horn = Seven Spirits of God that were sent out into all the earth.

There are nine ((("AFTER THESE THINGS"))) IN THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS.​

There have been four men (not counting Jesus) that were taken up = Enoch, Elijah, Paul(?) and John but they were never Transformed into His Glorious Body as that will not occur until His Second Coming.

 

[DavidTree]

Not only that,
But " revealed" 3 times

Not ;
*seated
*or in power
*or ruling
*or making war with saints

ONLY SAYS "REVEALED"

SOMETHING TAKEN/REMOVED...THEN REVEALED....
3 TIMES

No postrib will ever introduce our verses.

Conversely we HONESTLY embrace their verses.

YES AMEN = His Coming will NOT come UNTIL the falling away/departure and the man of sin is revealed

Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will DEPART from the faith............1 Timothy 4:1

This is the Apostle Paul who, once again, states that the Holy Spirit is warning everyone to be on guard of the coming Departure from the faith which will usher in false teachings.

Second Witness is the Apostle John = John 2:18-19

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.
But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

 

[DavidTree]

!!!!THE SECRET RAPTURE!!!!​

It's was only a secret when the body of Christ was lacking some of the Hidden Manna.

Rev 2:17b To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna.

Two of the Seven Promises​

Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, just as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Rev 3:22 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"

("After These Things")

Rev 4:1-2 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” Rev 4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.

If one is concerned about Chronological order then we see/hear !!!!"After these things"!!!! six more times (for a total of eight times) and the words "After This" Once, before the Church is ever mentioned again (nineteen chapters later)

John is the observer of everything that happen (firstly in the throne room) where shortly after his arrival there, and Immediately after a reception of Lighting and Thunder Seven Lamps of fire appear in front of the throne.

Rev 4:5 Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were (((seven lamps of fire))) burning before the throne, ((((which are the seven Spirits of God.))))

And what follows is where the seven lamps of fire came from, and Jesus states what they are.

Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.

Rev 2:1a-b “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this

Rev 1:19 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place "after these things". 20 (((("As for the mystery)))) of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and (((((the seven lampstands are the seven churches.)))))

Rev 5:6 And I saw in the middle of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the middle of the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, ((((which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth)))).

(((And now remembering again the great promise)))​

Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, just as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"

The Seven Spirits of God are first acknowledged after John came (back from the future) to deliver what he had written to seven letters to the churches in Asia. John Gives the blessing from those in heaven.

Rev 1:4-5 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, (from) Him who is and who was and who is to come, and (from) the seven Spirits who are in front of His throne. 5 and (from) Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

i have to go now but will read this(secretly) later today.

But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

 

[peldom10]

Maybe you can help Laura out who believes in the doctrine of 'soul sleep' - unless you do also???

i think you said you believe Paul's words = 2 Cor 5:8 = YES/NO?

To refer to soul sleep suggest you believe that there is time...as we know it...in the spiritual world....it is not.
From the time a person died....oh.... 9 14 1959 until the rapture is a mili. second of earthly time.
Remember scripture refers to spiritual time ....thusly........a day is as of one year.......and an hour is as of one day. (my words).
There is no time in the spiritual world as we know it here on earth.

 

[peldom10]

Yep...sure are.

...bodies still in graves. Spirits went home.

What point ate you making?

If that were the case then...... how do they get back to the grave to rise up at the rapture?

 

[DavidTree]

If that were the case then...... how do they get back to the grave to rise up at the rapture?

Only the Bodies/Bones/Dust are in the Grave = Not the Soul/spirit of the Individual Saint

When the LORD gives the Command/SHOUT the Graves will Open and the Bodies will Rise and in the Air the Saints who are coming with the LORD receive their Glorified New Bodies in the Ascension above the Earth.

There is a REASON for this that i will not share at this moment but if you pray and meditate on the Whole of Scripture, God will reveal it to you = PEACE

i am off line now till later

 

[Laura798]

Rev 14 DIRECTLY refutes that assumption.

It is you who who you think I am refuting, not scripture--you are doing exactly what I keep saying--isolating verses and not testing scripture against other scriptures.

This where all false teaching comes from -- in the isolation and misunderstanding of verses--the scriptures are one large tapestry. You can easily understand the end times by simply reading Jesus' and the apostles words outside of Revelation--a highly symbolic book--you're doing it backwards trying to understand the rest of scripture from Revelations

 

[peldom10]

Only the Bodies/Bones/Dust are in the Grave = Not the Soul/spirit of the Individual Saint

When the LORD gives the Command/SHOUT the Graves will Open and the Bodies will Rise and in the Air the Saints who are coming with the LORD receive their Glorified New Bodies in the Ascension above the Earth.

There is a REASON for this that i will not share at this moment but if you pray and meditate on the Whole of Scripture, God will reveal it to you = PEACE

i am off line now till later

You are not answering the question. In order for your point to have any legitimacy you must?
There is no time involved in the frame of death until rapture. You are failing to apply that fact.

The saints come with Christ at the 2nd advent...not at the rapture.

 

[Laura798]

So - are you suggesting that the "souls under the altar" are post-resurrection?

How are they able to cry out to the Lord if they are 'asleep'?

In the context of Revelation 6, where is the altar?

GaryA I think you need to understand SYMBOLISM and that Revelation is SYMBOLIC -- again you can't take the whole book literally. i can understand when a child's mind is developing, they may have difficulty understanding the difference, but I am perplexed at how many adults are unable to see the difference as well.