Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It means, just as John the baptist (John 1:29) and the Samaritans (Jn 4:42) believed, that Jesus would die for all of humanity, not just some of them. Without the sacrificial death of Christ, NO ONE could be saved. He HAD to pay the sin debt.

If Jesus didn't die for EVERYONE, then Titus 2:11 is a LIE, straight up. Do you believe that?

Titus 2:11 is not a lie, instead your understanding of it is wrong.

If your understanding was right, then it WOULD be a LIE. That is my point. So it is you who don't understand it.

If Jesus died for all humanity, then all must be saved because their sin was eliminated and no judgment against them can be levied.

I already explained that to you. And I gave a verse that PROVES that it isn't His death that saves (justifies) but His resurrection.

Rom 4:25. Read it.

You can't have it both ways-- either sin has been paid, is gone, or not. What those forgiven do or don't do
has no relevance to salvation once their sin is removed.

I don't have it "both ways". You simply don't understand what "removed" refers to. It's the penalty of their sin that is removed. And 2 Cor 5:19 proves that fact.

John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Do you see the potential here, by the "if"? The people that Jesus was talking to "would die in their sins" IF IF IF they "do not believe that I am He".

Very clear. IF they DO believe that Jesus is the I AM, they WILL NOT "die in their sins". But, if they DO NOT believe that Jesus is the I AM, they WILL die in their sins.

That statement from Jesus renders your claims to be in error.

The potential proves that Jesus would die for everyone, not just a select group, as you claim.

If it does, then it must be that sin still remains. The salvation transaction (so to speak) was entirely between God the Father and Christ, which transaction, Christ successfully satisfied perfectly. Those covered by it, play no part in it, other than for it to be given freely to them with no caveats.

Another point you have totally missed is that God can only grant grace to those who have had their sin debt paid.

As I said before, if Christ didn't die for a person, that person CANNOT be saved, no matter that he would believe in Christ.

If Christ died for everyone and yet something else in addition to that
is still needed from them, then He died for no one and He cannot be the Savior-- it is a simple proposition

I agree it is simple; simply WRONG. He died for everyone, which is why both John the baptist and Samaritans understood that He was the Savior of the world.

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

What's interesting in this verse is that it DOESN'T say ONLY of those who believe, or JUST of those who believe. He is the Savior of ALL people, and then Paul emphasizes those who believe receive the saving.

Go back to john 8:24, which PROVES that IF people believe in Christ, they won't die in their sins, BUT, IF they DO believe in Christ, they WON'T die in their sins.

It is all about potential.

\No, I do not believe that He died for everyone but only for those He whom had chosen to salvation from before the foundation of the world.

Since Eph 1:4 doesn't say anything about salvation, what verse were you thinking of when you said that?

I've already asked you for a verse that says that election is to salvation. But you haven't done that. Why? Aren't you eager to prove your claim? Then find the verse and quote it, please.

It amazes me that you and others think differently.

What is amazing is that you have been shown clear verses and yet remain stubbornly opposed to what they say clearly.

Read the following verses from Ephesians which clearly informs us of that.

[Eph 1:4-6, 11, 18-19 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Stop. Go to Eph 5:28 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.'

1 Thess 2:10 - You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

These verses show that believers are SUPPOSED to be holy and blameless. It is NOT a reference to getting saved.

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: ...
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

As I previously said, you haven't yet shown ANY verse that says election is to salvation.

 

[rogerg]

Every sin has been paid by Christ on the cross. What is your point?

My point is that non -belief is a sin so that sin too must have been forgiven. As such, no sin remains regardless of whether they have faith or not. Forgiveness comes first, faith second. So, having faith is not a requirement for salvation.

Every sin has been paid. However, forgiveness comes from faith in Him, not His death on the cross.

If sin had been paid, then by that has forgiveness has been rendered: Payment = forgiveness

Second, you keep PRESUMING that His death saves those He died for. Where is such a verse? No where.

Where? From His title that's where. He, by Himself, provided salvation because He IS the Saviour- the one who saves, simple huh?

Romans 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.[/QUOTE

Justification: the brining to life of Christ was a declaration by God (for those covered by Christ's offering) that they are free of sin.

Life is the demonstration of the removal of sin. In the verse you provided, do you see any action required by us between His death and His resurrection for our justification? Christ did it all.

[Rom 8:28-30 KJV]
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You've got to give up your presumed doctrines, because they are not in the Bible.

Stick with what the Bible actually says.

Not only is it in the Bible, it is the Bible. All that I post is biblical - the foundation of which
is Christ alone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Every sin has been paid by Christ on the cross. What is your point?

My point is that non -belief is a sin so that sin too must have been forgiven.

Your "point" reveals that you do not have proper understanding of the difference between paying for the sin and being forgiven.

I already gave you Acts 10:43. Why don't you believe it? It says forgiveness is through believing in Christ.

Paying the debt allows God to bestow His grace on those who believe.

If sin had been paid, then by that has forgiveness has been rendered: Payment = forgiveness

This is wrong. apparently you either don't believe Acts 10:43 or you don't understand it.

FreeGrace2 said:
Second, you keep PRESUMING that His death saves those He died for. Where is such a verse? No where.

Where? From His title that's where.

Your assumptions continue to be in error.

He, by Himself, provided salvation because He IS the Saviour- the one who saves, simple huh?

What you miss is that He saves ONLY those who believe, not everyone for whom He died. That's the assumption that keeps messing you up.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Do you realize how different this verse would have been written if Calvinism were correct?

Instead of "God was pleased...to save those who believe", we would have "God was pleased...to save those He chose to save".

Or, "God was pleased...to save those for whom Christ died".

But the emphasis in that verse is on "those who believe". That is the key. Not who He died for.

He died for everyone SO THAT (purpose clause) "whosoever" believes WILL BE saved.

 

[rogerg]

If your understanding was right, then it WOULD be a LIE. That is my point. So it is you who don't understand it.

Maybe according to you. I disagree

I already explained that to you. And I gave a verse that PROVES that it isn't His death that saves (justifies) but His resurrection.

See post 1782

I don't have it "both ways". You simply don't understand what "removed" refers to. It's the penalty of their sin that is removed. And 2 Cor 5:19 proves that fact.

John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

They will die in sin but because they weren't saved - faith is a product of salvation, not the reverse. The point is: who will truly believe, and why? Faith is a gift of the fruit if the Spirit given upon becoming born-again. True faith is nothing a person can develop of themselves - the very idea of that is a contradiction of faith. If law remains, sin remains, and its penalty must be enforced. Christ's offering took those saved from under law: the law of sin and death. They cannot remain under that law and, at the same time, have the penalty removed.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

I agree it is simple; simply WRONG. He died for everyone, which is why both John the baptist and Samaritans understood that He was the Savior of the world.

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

What's interesting in this verse is that it DOESN'T say ONLY of those who believe, or JUST of those who believe. He is the Savior of ALL people, and then Paul emphasizes those who believe receive the saving.

He can't be the Savior of all men (and my translation says "men"), if all men are not going to be saved. You must be misunderstanding something. Those He is the Saviour of, must become saved, no way around that, otherwise, Christ has failed and He is not the Saviour. He can't have the title of Saviour and then not save those He is the Saviour of, can He?

Stop. Go to Eph 5:28 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.'

I don't understand your reference to that verse.

1 Thess 2:10 - You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

These verses show that believers are SUPPOSED to be holy and blameless. It is NOT a reference to getting saved.

This verse?

[1Th 3:13 KJV] 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

It says that "He may stablish your hearts". It doesn't say anything that they must do.

As I previously said, you haven't yet shown ANY verse that says election is to salvation.

Wait - You can read, can't you? Did you see the verses I supplied that proceeded your comment?

[1Pe 1:2,3, 5 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. ... 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ...
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Rom 11:5-8 KJV]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

[Mar 13:27 KJV]
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
[Luk 18:7 KJV]
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
[Rom 8:33 KJV]
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[1Pe 1:3 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[Eph 1:4 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
If your understanding was right, then it WOULD be a LIE. That is my point. So it is you who don't understand it.

Maybe according to you. I disagree

Of course you would disagree. Because you DON'T understand the verse.

If you did understand it, you would have changed your view.

They will die in sin but because they weren't saved

That's NOT what Jesus said. He said the POTENTIAL (IF) is -
1. IF they DO believe He is the I am, they WILL NOT die in their sin.
2. IF they DON'T believe He is the I am, they WILL die in their sin.

Neither of these would be true if Calvinism were true. Jesus showed the POTENTIAL of anyone being saved. All on the basis of faith.

- faith is a product of salvation, not the reverse.

There are no verses that teach this. This comes straight out of the Calvinist playbook. Not the Bible.

The point is: who will truly believe, and why?

That's not a point, but a question. And a silly one at that.

Everyone chooses what they will accept or believe. Belief comes from the heart. Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Man believes with his heart, not from "election" or anything else.

Faith is a gift of the fruit if the Spirit given upon becoming born-again.

You have it exactly BACKWARDS. Being born again comes from faith. Here's how the Bible explains it.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

In this verse, Paul clarifies what "made us alive" means at the end of the verse: by grace you have been saved.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Notice, please, that Paul repeats the end of v.5 at the beginning of v.8, which are the RED words.

Then, the blue words, "through faith" is HOW one gets saved: by grace through faith.
iow, we are saved by God's grace. And that salvation is through faith. That is the CONDITION for salvation; faith.

Now, since v.5 equates "being made alive" with "you have been saved", v.8 clarifies WHICH results in the other.

Since salvation is through faith, it is OBVIOUS that faith precedes salvation AND being born again.

True faith is nothing a person can develop of themselves

This is just another false Calvinist idea. Faith is NEVER "developed", or "created" or any other silly word that Calvinists like to use.

Faith is simply trust. Do you "work up" trust in anything? If you think so, please explain how you "worked it up".

- the very idea of that is a contradiction of faith.

As I've been showing, your ideas are all wrong. I've given Scripture that refutes your ideas. But are you paying attention?

He can't be the Savior of all men

Then tell that to John the baptist and all those Samaritans. And Jesus Himself. Go ahead.

(and my translation says "men"), if all men are not going to be saved. You must be misunderstanding something.

You are describing yourself.

Those He is the Saviour of, must become saved, no way around that, otherwise, Christ has failed and He is not the Saviour. He can't have the title of Saviour and then not save those He is the Saviour of, can He?

This is the kind of thinking that occurs when one is blinded by Calvinism (false doctrine).

1 Tim 4:10 SAYS He is the Savior of all, especially those who believe. Paul didn't write "specifically" or "just" or "only". He wrote "especially".

FreeGrace2 said:
Stop. Go to Eph 5:28 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.'

I don't understand your reference to that verse.

I didn't refer to it. I quoted it. Do you not understand the verse? Do you consider "the church" to be saved people? If not, you should. This verse shows that saved people are to be holy and blameless.

This shows that "holy and blameless" does NOT refer to getting saved, as you presume in Eph 1:4. Being holy and blameless are what believers (saved people) are supposed to BE. It's about lifestyle, not salvation.

FreeGrace2 said:
1 Thess 2:10 - You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

These verses show that believers are SUPPOSED to be holy and blameless. It is NOT a reference to getting saved.

This verse?

[1Th 3:13 KJV] 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

It says that "He may stablish your hearts". It doesn't say anything that they must do.

The point is that "so that you will be blameless and holy" isn't about salvation, but lifestyle.

Wait - You can read, can't you? Did you see the verses I supplied that proceeded your comment?

[1Pe 1:2,3, 5 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. ... 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Notice what election is according to: foreknowledge. Foreknowledge of what? Who will believe. And notice also the PURPOSE of God's election: it is "unto obedience". That's service.

In fact, in EVERY verse that mentions the purpose of election, it is always service, and NEVER salvation. As v.2 shows.

1 Cor 1-
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

What we see in these 2 verses are service and NO salvation.

[Rom 11:5-8 KJV]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

And your point? I don't see salvation here. I do see God's grace. btw, since Eph 1:4 says that God chose believers to be holy an blameless, that is also grace.

[Mar 13:27 KJV]
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
[Luk 18:7 KJV]
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
[Rom 8:33 KJV]
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

OK, I see that you are able to do a word search on "elect". So, what do all these verses say?

[1Pe 1:3 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

This isn't election but being born again. Didn't you read it?

[Eph 1:4 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The word "us" after "chosen" is defined in v.19 as "us who believe". There is no reason to presume "us" means anything else in ch 1.

So, 1:4 plainly says that God has chosen believers in Him...that we should be (purpose clause) holy and blameless.

Every believer is chosen or elected for service. That is the point.

 

[rogerg]

That's NOT what Jesus said. He said the POTENTIAL (IF) is -
1. IF they DO believe He is the I am, they WILL NOT die in their sin.
2. IF they DON'T believe He is the I am, they WILL die in their sin.

The only way to have belief is to first have been born again. If they are not born-again, they will not believe, and will die.


[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

You don't think God was serious about that verse?

 

[rogerg]

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Huh? God did that, we didn't nor did our faith

[Eph 2:4-6 KJV] 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

 

[FreeGrace2]

The only way to have belief is to first have been born again. If they are not born-again, they will not believe, and will die.

You make a lot of claims that you haven't proven from Scripture. Where are the verses that say what you claim?

I've already proven from Eph 2:5 and 8 that both regeneration and salvation are "through faith", which means the faith comes first.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

You don't think God was serious about that verse?

Dumb question. Of course God is serious about all His Word. What's wrong with you anyway?

Regarding Gal 5:22, that verse applies ONLY to born again believers, already saved. And it applies ONLY to believers who are filled with the Spirit. Not believers who grieve or quench the Spirit.

So once again, you have NOT given any evidence from Scripture that supports your claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Huh? God did that, we didn't nor did our faith
What's wrong with you? I never said otherwise. But your response is only a dodge so you don't have to address what v.5 is saying.

It is equating "being made alive" with "have been saved". iow, they go together. Can't have either one without the other.

Or PROVE me wrong. You haven't yet.

[Eph 2:4-6 KJV] 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Keep going, to v.8 where Paul says that by grace we are saved THROUGH FAITH.

So, it is very clear; our regeneration and salvation are THROUGH FAITH.

Faith first, then regeneration and salvation.

You have it totally backwards.

 

[rogerg]

You have it exactly BACKWARDS. Being born again comes from faith. Here's how the Bible explains it.

Nope - we have to be born again first and from that comes faith. Verse 5 informs that becoming born again is by the Spirit and therefore not of ourselves: born of the Spirit. If we cannot see/perceive the spiritual, how then can someone have faith?

[Jhn 3:3-5 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

It is through Christ's faith. His faith is the faith that saves - He was faithful to the Father -- He is the Saviour.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Phl 3:10 KJV]
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Question: How can someone not "know him" and yet have faith in Him? Answer: they can't. They have to first be given faith and from that, they come to know Him. The "That" tells us that v9 permitted his statement of v10.

 

[rogerg]

FreeGrace2 said:
Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

We are saved Christ's faith, not ours. He is the Saviour. You are the one to have it backwards. Faith is a work. We cannot be saved by our works. Obtaining true faith is a work, it is given as a gift, and given only by/from God.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nope - we have to be born again first and from that comes faith.

I proved from Eph 2:5 and 8 the opposite. Aren't you paying attention? All you do is make claims. You have NO verses that say what you claim.

Verse 5 informs that becoming born again is by the Spirit and therefore not of ourselves: born of the Spirit.

True, but the verse says much more, as I showed, and you keep dodging. It equates regeneration with salvation. They go together.

And then v.8 proves that salvation is through faith. iow, faith precedes salvation. So, likewise, faith precedes regeneration.

Where is your verse that supports your claim?

If we cannot see/perceive the spiritual, how then can someone have faith?

It doesn't take seeing "the spiritual". I don't know what you are even talking about.

To have faith means to have trust.

[Jhn 3:3-5 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus equated seeing the kingdom with entering the kingdom. iow, in order to see it, one must enter it.

It is through Christ's faith. His faith is the faith that saves - He was faithful to the Father -- He is the Saviour.

The first phrase is false. There is no verse that says this.

And it contradicts Paul's answer to the jailer, which you will not address.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Phl 3:10 KJV]
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Question: How can someone not "know him" and yet have faith in Him? Answer: they can't. They have to first be given faith and from that, they come to know Him. The "That" tells us that v9 permitted his statement of v10.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are saved Christ's faith, not ours. He is the Saviour. You are the one to have it backwards.

I'm going to PROVE how wrong you are in your own post.

Faith is a work.

Right here. Faith is NOT a work. Faith is non-meritorious.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

You have been refuted by Scripture.

Rom 9-
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

If you don't or can't see that faith is the OPPOSITE of works, you just aren't looking.

We cannot be saved by our works.

True.

Obtaining true faith is a work, it is given as a gift, and given only by/from God.

Prove this from Scripture. I don't believe you.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

You missed the key verse, which unlocks v.29.

27 - Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

So, the question in v.28 reveals the Jews orientation that salvation was by works. So their question had that bias imbedded.

They were asking Jesus what work does God require for eternal life.

Jesus' answer was a tongue-in-cheek answer. He used their word to make a point.

I've already shown you from both Rom 4:45 and Eph 2:8,9 that faith and works are opposites. They are not the same thing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You have it exactly BACKWARDS. Being born again comes from faith. Here's how the Bible explains it.

Nope - we have to be born again first and from that comes faith.

There you go again; ignoring my point/Scripture and just repeating your unbiblical mantra, all without any verse that supports your claim.

Question: How can someone not "know him" and yet have faith in Him? Answer: they can't.

Your erroneous assumptions are just astounding. There are several words in the Greek for 'know'. One means knowledge, such as understanding the gospel. Another means a deep knowledge or understanding, from spiritual growth.

But you seem to have no clue about any of this.

They have to first be given faith and from that, they come to know Him. The "That" tells us that v9 permitted his statement of v10.

You keep repeating yourself, but without ANY verse that says we must be given faith.

Did Paul answer with that? No. He told the jailer to believe and he would be saved. Simple as that.

But Calvinism complicates everything with unbiblical notions.

Unless you shake off your Calvinistic notions, you will NOT be able to understand the Bible.

 

[rogerg]

FreeGrace2 said:
You have it exactly BACKWARDS. Being born again comes from faith. Here's how the Bible explains it.

There you go again; ignoring my point/Scripture and just repeating your unbiblical mantra, all without any verse that supports your claim.


Your erroneous assumptions are just astounding. There are several words in the Greek for 'know'. One means knowledge, such as understanding the gospel. Another means a deep knowledge or understanding, from spiritual growth.

But you seem to have no clue about any of this.


You keep repeating yourself, but without ANY verse that says we must be given faith.

Did Paul answer with that? No. He told the jailer to believe and he would be saved. Simple as that.

But Calvinism complicates everything with unbiblical notions.

Unless you shake off your Calvinistic notions, you will NOT be able to understand the Bible.

So you are seriously telling me that that you have to have faith in order to be born again to get faith? Really?

Have to have faith to get faith - hmmmm - that make absolutely no sense whatsoever, is completely illogical,
and absurd, all at the same time.

 

[rogerg]

Right here. Faith is NOT a work. Faith is non-meritorious.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

[Rom 4:5 KJV] 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

"his faith": Christ's faith. There is no righteousness in any supposed faith produced by a person (besides Christ's)


Yeah, trust is given as a gift. that's the only way it will harmonize with john 6:29 - that being my point all along. Faith is most definitely a work as John 6:29 so informs.
Your problem is that whenever you see faith mentioned, you automatically associate it to the doing of a person's, which it is not. You miss entirely the Bible's explanation regarding the origin/source of faith.

[Jhn 6:29 NIV] 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

 

[Nehemiah6]

So you are seriously telling me that that you have to have faith in order to be born again to get faith? Really?

Did you never read John 1:11-13?
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So how are people "born of God" (born from above, born of the Spirit, born again)? By (1) believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and (2) receiving Him as Lord and Savior. "Believing" means to have faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

 

[rogerg]

Did you never read John 1:11-13?
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So how are people "born of God" (born from above, born of the Spirit, born again)? By (1) believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and (2) receiving Him as Lord and Savior. "Believing" means to have faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

God gives life to their spirit - they become born again through Him, but not by the will of the flesh nor the will of nan but of (through) God

 

[rogerg]

So how are people "born of God" (born from above, born of the Spirit, born again)? By (1) believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and (2) receiving Him as Lord and Savior. "Believing" means to have faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

Sorry, think I misunderstood your question in my prior reply. People become born again by God solely because they had been
chosen by Him for such before the foundation of the world. It is given solely as a gift with
no action needed or possible on their part. God does not share why or how He chose who He chose, except to say that it was His divine prerogative to do so based upon whatever criteria He wanted to employ. From that choice, all of the attributes and actions accompanying salvation result.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you are seriously telling me that that you have to have faith in order to be born again to get faith? Really?

No, I'm NOT saying that. It appears you are having difficulty with the English language.

You could leave off the "to get faith" part, and then you'd be right.

Faith isn't something that man "gets". Faith is something that man does. From his heart. Rom 10:10

Have to have faith to get faith - hmmmm - that make absolutely no sense whatsoever, is completely illogical,
and absurd, all at the same time.

OK, you can play with all the red herrings you want. I don't care. Since it appears that you don't understand plain English, what's the point in further discussion?