Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[FreeGrace2]

They are firstfruit jews as it explicitly states.

The ONLY use of "firstfruits" in relation to resurrection is Jesus' resurrection. He was the FIRST to receive a glorified body. Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

That's why Paul used the word "firstfruits" in 1 Cor 15:23 in RELATION to receiving a glorified body.

The other uses of "firstfruits" is NOT related to receiving a glorified body.

The real emphasis is on the resurrection where all saved people will receive their glorified body. Not on being second in line for receiving a glorified body, plus the fantasy of this assumed journey up to heaven, which the Bible says NOTHING about.

And the Bible specifically says there is ONE resurrection (reception of glorified bodies).

So those pretribbers who argue that there are "waves" or "stages" or "series" of resurrections where believers will receive their resurrection bodies are flatly wrong.

 

[Absolutely]

Of course they are completely different to anyone else in history. They NEVER physically died. That's what makes them different. God called them to Paradise apart from physical death.


1 Cor 15:23 refutes your belief. There is just ONE resurrection of the saved and that will include the 2 W. So their being raised to life doesn't mean they get a glorified body.

1 Cor 15:23 tells us in plain language that Jesus is the first to receive a glorified body, and "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him", which is every believer since Adam forward.

No matter what

They did indeed resurrect and were raptured outside your model.

Amazing how the bible does that to conjecture.

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
No omission. But how come you can't address the Bible's teaching about only ONE resurrection for the saved?

The Greek word can be translated as "rise from the dead". And, yes, many dead saints did rise from the dead. As well as those that Jesus raised from the dead and His disciples.

This is the issue: we know from 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4 that at THAT resurrection, the dead and living will receive glorified bodies.

It is THAT single resurrection that I'm talking about and the one that the Bible teaches that there is just ONE for the saved.

I hope this clarifies for you.

It clarifies the two witnesses need to be removed from the bible since your conjecture is ruling over clear bible facts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course they are completely different to anyone else in history. They NEVER physically died. That's what makes them different. God called them to Paradise apart from physical death.

1 Cor 15:23 refutes your belief. There is just ONE resurrection of the saved and that will include the 2 W. So their being raised to life doesn't mean they get a glorified body.

1 Cor 15:23 tells us in plain language that Jesus is the first to receive a glorified body, and "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him", which is every believer since Adam forward.

No matter what

What do you mean? ALL truth matters. But pretribbers must sweep some truth under the rug since is refutes their opinions.

They did indeed resurrect and were raptured outside your model.

Who were? And where do you get this from?

You are quick to make claims, but you always fail to include Scripture that supports those claims.

Amazing how the bible does that to conjecture.

All conjecture is on the pretribbers side.

Such as believing that the living believers who are caught up to the clouds and are changed (receive a glorified body) are THEN taken up to heaven. There is NO MENTION in the entire Bible about such an event.

So, talk about conjecture. You do that in spades!!

There is ONE resurrection and it includes EVERY believer from Adam on. That is biblical truth. You've been given the verses.

Now, it's on you to actually read them and believe them. Only you can do that. No one else can help you any farther.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It clarifies the two witnesses need to be removed from the bible since your conjecture is ruling over clear bible facts.

I can't figure out this babbling.

What is clear from the text is that the 2 witnesses actually die physically, something they NEVER did before. And, just like the people that Jesus raised from the dead, like Lazarus and the widow's son, plus the many saints who came out of their graves when Jesus died on the cross, NONE of them received resurrection bodies, or the Bible would have included that.

But, how could any of them receive a glorified body BEFORE Jesus would? The reason Paul described Jesus' resurrection as "firstfruits" is because Jesus was the FIRST ONE to receive a glorified body.

Acts 26:23 and 1 Cor 15:23. Read them, study them, and believe them.

The 2W did NOT receive glorified bodies when God called them back to heaven. They WILL receive their glorified bodies "WHEN He comes" again at the Second Advent, along with "those who belong to Him".

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

And that's the truth.

 

[oyster67]

Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.


Ummm... People should be afraid of missing the Rapture. That's a good thing.

Just like people who reject Jesus SHOULD fear the consequences.

Someone needs to do a word study on the word "salvation". It means being saved from something. We need to address the consequences of undealt-with sin.

 

[Jackson123]

FreeGrace2 said:
No omission. But how come you can't address the Bible's teaching about only ONE resurrection for the saved?

The Greek word can be translated as "rise from the dead". And, yes, many dead saints did rise from the dead. As well as those that Jesus raised from the dead and His disciples.

This is the issue: we know from 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4 that at THAT resurrection, the dead and living will receive glorified bodies.

It is THAT single resurrection that I'm talking about and the one that the Bible teaches that there is just ONE for the saved.

I hope this clarifies for you.

Is that mean resurrection on Matt 27 not in glorified body? Was they resurrect into regular body a mortal body like Lazarus?

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course they are completely different to anyone else in history. They NEVER physically died. That's what makes them different. God called them to Paradise apart from physical death.

1 Cor 15:23 refutes your belief. There is just ONE resurrection of the saved and that will include the 2 W. So their being raised to life doesn't mean they get a glorified body.

1 Cor 15:23 tells us in plain language that Jesus is the first to receive a glorified body, and "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him", which is every believer since Adam forward.

What do you mean? ALL truth matters. But pretribbers must sweep some truth under the rug since is refutes their opinions.


Who were? And where do you get this from?

You are quick to make claims, but you always fail to include Scripture that supports those claims.


All conjecture is on the pretribbers side.

Such as believing that the living believers who are caught up to the clouds and are changed (receive a glorified body) are THEN taken up to heaven. There is NO MENTION in the entire Bible about such an event.

So, talk about conjecture. You do that in spades!!

There is ONE resurrection and it includes EVERY believer from Adam on. That is biblical truth. You've been given the verses.

Now, it's on you to actually read them and believe them. Only you can do that. No one else can help you any farther.

Really?

Lol

You never read the account of the 2 witnesses, and what it says about their resurrection?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Is that mean resurrection on Matt 27 not in glorified body? Was they resurrect into regular body a mortal body like Lazarus?

Why keep arguing about what the Bible states clearly?

There is just ONE resurrection for the saved and ONE for the lost. The saved all get their glorified bodies and the unsaved get cast into the lake of fire.

Since you think there are multiple resurrections for saved people, it should be obvious that your calculations are off. Quite off.

Meditate on Luke 14:14, Acts 24:25, 1 Cor 15:23 and Acts 26:23.

Then, read and believe 2 Thess 2:1.

It's all there; in black and white.

Read and believe. Don't argue with Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Really?

Lol

You never read the account of the 2 witnesses, and what it says about their resurrection?

Why do you argue with Scripture? I've shown (PROVED) that there is only ONE resurrection for the saved from Scripture.

If you think there are multiple resurrections, you simply fail to discern the Bible.

btw, I have read the account of the 2W. Can you show me where the text indicates that they received glorified bodies?

Rather, they left earth with a mortal human body, just as they both did 1000's of years ago.

But, please; prove me wrong if you can.

By that, I mean with Scripture that SAYS differently than I believe it says.

 

[Jackson123]

Why keep arguing about what the Bible states clearly?

There is just ONE resurrection for the saved and ONE for the lost. The saved all get their glorified bodies and the unsaved get cast into the lake of fire.

Since you think there are multiple resurrections for saved people, it should be obvious that your calculations are off. Quite off.

Meditate on Luke 14:14, Acts 24:25, 1 Cor 15:23 and Acts 26:23.

Then, read and believe 2 Thess 2:1.

It's all there; in black and white.

Read and believe. Don't argue with Scripture.

I agree only one model resurrection for the save/saint but it seem not in one ovation.
Matt 27 happen before Jesus resurectioon, than Jesus than on the end time

 

[Jackson123]

I agree only one model resurrection for the save/saint but it seem not in one ovation.
Matt 27 happen before Jesus resurectioon, than Jesus than on the end time

I forget another model of resurrection it is Lazarus resurrection

John 11
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

I believe this resurrection not into glorified body

 

[HatedForNoReason]

Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.


Ummm... People should be afraid of missing the Rapture. That's a good thing.

Just like people who reject Jesus SHOULD fear the consequences.

Someone needs to do a word study on the word "salvation". It means being saved from something. We need to address the consequences of undealt-with sin.

There is nothing secret about it...

Revelation 1:7
New King James Version

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.


Before the Real Jesus Christ comes back: Great earthquake that shakes Earth and Heaven, sun shall be turned into darkness, moon into blood, stars shall withdraw their shining, heaven rolled like a scroll, every mountain and island moved out of their places, great hail out of heaven pelting on some of Satan's children on earth.

Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 38:19-23, Joel 2:10-11, Joel 2:30-32, Haggai 2:6, 21, Matthew 24:29-34, Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:24-29, Mark 13:31, Acts 2:19-20, Luke 21:25-33 and Hebrews 12:26-28, Revelation 6:12-17, Compare Daniel 7:13-14, 27, Ezekiel 13:13, Revelation 11:15-19, Revelation 16:17-21

Heaven will be we rolled together like a scroll:
Isaiah 34:4, Hebrews 1:10-12, Hebrews 12:22-29 and Revelation 6:14-17.

 

[Jackson123]

There is nothing secret about it...

Revelation 1:7
New King James Version

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.


Before the Real Jesus Christ comes back: Great earthquake that shakes Earth and Heaven, sun shall be turned into darkness, moon into blood, stars shall withdraw their shining, heaven rolled like a scroll, every mountain and island moved out of their places, great hail out of heaven pelting on some of Satan's children on earth.

Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 38:19-23, Joel 2:10-11, Joel 2:30-32, Haggai 2:6, 21, Matthew 24:29-34, Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:24-29, Mark 13:31, Acts 2:19-20, Luke 21:25-33 and Hebrews 12:26-28, Revelation 6:12-17, Compare Daniel 7:13-14, 27, Ezekiel 13:13, Revelation 11:15-19, Revelation 16:17-21

Heaven will be we rolled together like a scroll:
Isaiah 34:4, Hebrews 1:10-12, Hebrews 12:22-29 and Revelation 6:14-17.

And rapture happen after gt
2 tes2
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree only one model resurrection for the save/saint but it seem not in one ovation.

I don't understand this. An "ovation" is applause. So what are you talking about?

If you are trying to communicate that there are several occurrences involved in the "one resurrection", then prove it from Scripture that shows clearly that there are more than one episode of resurrection.

Matt 27 happen before Jesus resurectioon, than Jesus than on the end time

Please re-phrase so I can understand what your point is. The sentence doesn't make sense. And Matt 27 is about Jesus' crucifixion, and has NO mention of resurrection in the chapter.

So, what chapter are you really referring to?

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I forget another model of resurrection it is Lazarus resurrection

I addressed this one, and the widow's son and all the saints who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified.

But you are only ASSUMING that these people received glorified bodies. There is NO evidence of that. Jesus simply brought them back to life, in their mortal bodies.

There is absolutely NO indication that any of them receied glorified bodies.

John 11
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

I believe this resurrection not into glorified body

Therefore, it DOESN'T COUNT as a resurrection in the sense of 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4.

So, to be real clear, the SINGLE resurrection taught in the Bible is the one where ALL believers receive their glorified bodies.

And we know WHEN they receive their glorified bodies: "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says.

 

[oyster67]

I see that I have been misquoted and misrepresented. I hope this was not done intentionally.

For the record:

I believe that the next event is the Pre-Trib Rapture in which we meet the Lord and the dead in Christ in the air and then are with Him for evermore.

We are then dressed in fine white linen and participate in the Marriage Feast in Heaven whilst those left behind go through seven years of Tribulation on Earth.

Then follows the Second Coming and the Thousand Year Reign upon Earth.

Then cometh the New Jerusalem down out of Heaven and this is the Final State forevermore.

A simple and straightforward reading of 1Thess 4 and Rev 19+ reveals all these things.

 

[Jackson123]

I addressed this one, and the widow's son and all the saints who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified.

But you are only ASSUMING that these people received glorified bodies. There is NO evidence of that. Jesus simply brought them back to life, in their mortal bodies.


There is absolutely NO indication that any of them receied glorified bodies.


Therefore, it DOESN'T COUNT as a resurrection in the sense of 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4.

So, to be real clear, the SINGLE resurrection taught in the Bible is the one where ALL believers receive their glorified bodies.

And we know WHEN they receive their glorified bodies: "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says.

I don't see both evidence either mortal or glorified body on the saint resurrection when Jesus on the cross.

But bible not say where they live after resurection

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

It say they went to holy city, not say live in the holy city, so it may only visit to holy city for short time. Than we don't know went to paradise with glorified body or stay on earth with mortal body

 

[Jackson123]

I see that I have been misquoted and misrepresented. I hope this was not done intentionally.

For the record:

I believe that the next event is the Pre-Trib Rapture in which we meet the Lord and the dead in Christ in the air and then are with Him for evermore.

We are then dressed in fine white linen and participate in the Marriage Feast in Heaven whilst those left behind go through seven years of Tribulation on Earth.

Then follows the Second Coming and the Thousand Year Reign upon Earth.

Then cometh the New Jerusalem down out of Heaven and this is the Final State forevermore.

A simple and straightforward reading of 1Thess 4 and Rev 19+ reveals all these things.

How about these verse

2 tes 2
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

[oyster67]

How about these verse

2 tes 2
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Some, including many Jews, will be saved after they have been left behind.

Good verses, Thank you!