Let's talk about the elephant in the room
- Thread starter ResidentAlien
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
1Co 7:1, Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
1Co 7:2, Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1Co 7:3, Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Co 7:4, The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Co 7:5, Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
1Co 7:6, But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
I would consider, based on this scripture, that it is impossible that a husband should rape his wife; since rape by definition is to force sex on someone to whom you do not have the right.
1Co 7:2, Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1Co 7:3, Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Co 7:4, The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Co 7:5, Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
1Co 7:6, But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
I would consider, based on this scripture, that it is impossible that a husband should rape his wife; since rape by definition is to force sex on someone to whom you do not have the right.
Do you not understand what rape is? It is forcing yourself on someone who does not want to engage in sexual intercourse--forcing yourself on someone mean you have to do so against their wishes and you must use FORCE. No TRUE Christian husband would do such a thing!
ps did you miss part where it says 'by mutual consent?
Do you not understand what rape is? It is forcing yourself on someone who does not want to engage in sexual intercourse--forcing yourself on someone mean you have to do so against their wishes and you must use FORCE. No TRUE Christian husband would do such a thing!
ps did you miss part where it says 'by mutual consent?
But I suggest you take my statements in the context of everything that I have said on the issue.
In your own words: I would consider, based on this scripture, that it is impossible that a husband should rape his wife; since rape by definition is to force sex on someone to whom you do not have the right.
No husband has the right to force himself on his wife--that is antithetical to the love he should have for her--as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it.
No husband has the right to force himself on his wife--that is antithetical to the love he should have for her--as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it.
-
1
- Show all
The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband (1 Corinthians 7:4).
I take this as being entirely subject to what Paul said elsewhere,
Eph 5:25, Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26, That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28, So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29, For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30, For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32, This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33, Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
One thing speaks of the wife's responsibility to the husband that she not refuse him what rightfully belongs to him.
The other speaks of the husband's responsibility to the wife to love her and be considerate of her feelings on the matter.
Of course a husband should not pull rank using 1 Corinthians 7:4 in a situation where the wife is recovering from an issue (such as, she may have just discovered that she was molested as a child and needs space because of that...the husband in such a situation should give her that space. Or, she may be having vaginal problems so that intercourse is painful. The husband's love for his wife should lead him not to want to hurt her).
However, I am saying that the wife is required to submit to her husband (Ephesians 5:21-24); and her love for her husband should lead her to not refuse him his needs in the bedroom.
In a situation where a woman is refusing her husband's needs (withholding sex) as some kind of power play to get what she wants in the marriage, while I would say that the husband would be wrong to force the issue, I would also say that she is in the wrong to be withholding sex from him.
I take this as being entirely subject to what Paul said elsewhere,
Eph 5:25, Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26, That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28, So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29, For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30, For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32, This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33, Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
One thing speaks of the wife's responsibility to the husband that she not refuse him what rightfully belongs to him.
The other speaks of the husband's responsibility to the wife to love her and be considerate of her feelings on the matter.
Of course a husband should not pull rank using 1 Corinthians 7:4 in a situation where the wife is recovering from an issue (such as, she may have just discovered that she was molested as a child and needs space because of that...the husband in such a situation should give her that space. Or, she may be having vaginal problems so that intercourse is painful. The husband's love for his wife should lead him not to want to hurt her).
However, I am saying that the wife is required to submit to her husband (Ephesians 5:21-24); and her love for her husband should lead her to not refuse him his needs in the bedroom.
In a situation where a woman is refusing her husband's needs (withholding sex) as some kind of power play to get what she wants in the marriage, while I would say that the husband would be wrong to force the issue, I would also say that she is in the wrong to be withholding sex from him.
This response is so convoluted that it is not even worthy of a response. You said what you said and now you are trying to make yourself right--well you are not. If a man or wife withheld sex other than for illness then they would not be behaving in the way Paul said--which is NOT a command by the way--it is only his way of thinking about it. " 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. "--1st Corinthians 7:6
There would be nothing to be done about it, if one or the other was withholding intimacy except talk and pray--the husband cannnot and must not force his wife-- that would be RAPE.
Sex between a husband and wife is an act of love not lust. Forced sex is lust and that is both SELFISH and SINFUL. End of Story!
There would be nothing to be done about it, if one or the other was withholding intimacy except talk and pray--the husband cannnot and must not force his wife-- that would be RAPE.
Sex between a husband and wife is an act of love not lust. Forced sex is lust and that is both SELFISH and SINFUL. End of Story!
Rape is far far worse than withholding. Again if either of them did this then they need to talk and pray about the matter to discover what the problem is and if it's ongoing they may require marital counseling, but the husband must never force intimacy on his wife--this is an act of aggression and is NOT loving.
-
2
- Show all
Suppose that the woman does not want to have children but the husband does...
Forced sex would in that situation not be a matter of lust but of the husband lording it over the wife and forcing the issue of having a baby.
Certainly not ideal...and I would say that in such a situation the wife would have every right to leave her husband according to 1 Corinthians 7:10-11.
For he would have violated her.
Nevertheless, it is a sin for a wife to withhold sex from her husband just as it would be a sin (not "rape") for a husband to force his wife to have sex with him; (not "rape" because of what it says in 1 Corinthians 7:4).
I would contend that the wife does not have the right to withhold sex from her husband because of 1 Corinthians 7:4; and therefore if he does have sex with her, she does not have the right to cry "rape" for he is her husband.
If she does not want to have sex with him, she does not have to remain married to him...and I would say that in such a situation there are deeper problems so that the marriage is in trouble...so leaving him may be the best option if she does not want to have intimacy with her husband when he desires it.
I do not put this on only one end. If the woman desires to have sex with her husband at any time in their marriage, he is not to refuse her. He does not have power of his own body, but she has power of his body. The husband does not have the right to refuse sex from his wife but she has power of his body.
I will say again that I would consider it to be a sin for the husband to force his wife to have sex with him for any reason if she were unwilling to have sex.
But that in the biblical ideal of marriage, the woman is not to withhold sex from her husband except if they both agree to abstain for the purposes of fasting and prayer.
She must deny herself her right to herself and give herself to her husband at any time that her husband desires it from her that they should come together in intimacy.
That is on her end.
On the husband's end, he is to be considerate of her and any legitimate reasons (other than she is trying to get her way in something) she may have for withholding sex (such as, she may have vaginal problems so that there is pain in that general area; and therefore it would be loving of her husband to hold back from having sex with her so as not to cause her pain).
There are two ends of the story...the husband's responsibility and the responsibility of the wife.
If the wife upholds her responsibility to her husband, there will be no instance in which she is withholding sex from her husband and therefore there is no possibility of "rape"...
Because rape, by definition, is a situation where the man forces the woman when she is saying "no".
1 Corinthians 7:4 tells us that the man has the right to the body of his wife...and therefore she does not have the rights within the marriage to say "no".
If she doesn't like it, she can always leave her husband according to 1 Corinthians 7:10-11...
Or else she can try to talk it out with her husband and let him know the legitimate reasons why she is withholding sex.
But gaining leverage in an argument is no legitimate reason for doing so.
Forced sex would in that situation not be a matter of lust but of the husband lording it over the wife and forcing the issue of having a baby.
Certainly not ideal...and I would say that in such a situation the wife would have every right to leave her husband according to 1 Corinthians 7:10-11.
For he would have violated her.
Nevertheless, it is a sin for a wife to withhold sex from her husband just as it would be a sin (not "rape") for a husband to force his wife to have sex with him; (not "rape" because of what it says in 1 Corinthians 7:4).
I would contend that the wife does not have the right to withhold sex from her husband because of 1 Corinthians 7:4; and therefore if he does have sex with her, she does not have the right to cry "rape" for he is her husband.
If she does not want to have sex with him, she does not have to remain married to him...and I would say that in such a situation there are deeper problems so that the marriage is in trouble...so leaving him may be the best option if she does not want to have intimacy with her husband when he desires it.
I do not put this on only one end. If the woman desires to have sex with her husband at any time in their marriage, he is not to refuse her. He does not have power of his own body, but she has power of his body. The husband does not have the right to refuse sex from his wife but she has power of his body.
I will say again that I would consider it to be a sin for the husband to force his wife to have sex with him for any reason if she were unwilling to have sex.
But that in the biblical ideal of marriage, the woman is not to withhold sex from her husband except if they both agree to abstain for the purposes of fasting and prayer.
She must deny herself her right to herself and give herself to her husband at any time that her husband desires it from her that they should come together in intimacy.
That is on her end.
On the husband's end, he is to be considerate of her and any legitimate reasons (other than she is trying to get her way in something) she may have for withholding sex (such as, she may have vaginal problems so that there is pain in that general area; and therefore it would be loving of her husband to hold back from having sex with her so as not to cause her pain).
There are two ends of the story...the husband's responsibility and the responsibility of the wife.
If the wife upholds her responsibility to her husband, there will be no instance in which she is withholding sex from her husband and therefore there is no possibility of "rape"...
Because rape, by definition, is a situation where the man forces the woman when she is saying "no".
1 Corinthians 7:4 tells us that the man has the right to the body of his wife...and therefore she does not have the rights within the marriage to say "no".
If she doesn't like it, she can always leave her husband according to 1 Corinthians 7:10-11...
Or else she can try to talk it out with her husband and let him know the legitimate reasons why she is withholding sex.
But gaining leverage in an argument is no legitimate reason for doing so.
1Co 7:4, The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Co 7:10, And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11, But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
1Co 7:10, And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11, But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
Why is it an act of aggression for a man but not for a woman?
I think that if my wife jumped my bones it would be an absolute blessing.
If the wife does not love her husband, I can see why she might consider it to be an act of aggression for him to jump her bones...
But if she loves him, I don't really see any problem in it...there would very likely be enjoyment on the end of both parties.
But if she does not love him, she ought to consider leaving him. For that is not even a marriage.
I think that if my wife jumped my bones it would be an absolute blessing.
If the wife does not love her husband, I can see why she might consider it to be an act of aggression for him to jump her bones...
But if she loves him, I don't really see any problem in it...there would very likely be enjoyment on the end of both parties.
But if she does not love him, she ought to consider leaving him. For that is not even a marriage.
You're thinking defies understanding. The expression 'jumping my bones' -- is a playful one, it can't be compared to forced copulation.The verse says "do not deprive one another"--I don't believe it's talking about an occasional "Not tonight honey, i have a headache" or one or the other has had an bad day--it's not talking about 'one offs'--it's talking about deprivation--which would be an ongoing issue.
Also the verse about wife and husband not having authority over their bodies--"The two shall become one." It is not saying "You must give me my marital rights, it is talking about the act itself is of one's giving of oneself to the other and not withholding that as it is part of the marriage covenant. Again, since it use the word 'deprive' this would've been an ongoing issue.
Also in an earlier post you said the wife belongs to the husband--this isn't the middle east--a wife is not the property of her husband--they are co-equals and co-heirs with Christ. Again it's more like President and Vice-President than servant and master.
A woman needs to focus on submitting. The man needs to focus on loving her as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it. They need to be focusing on their role in the relationship, not each others.
And your solution was for the wife to leave her husband? Yes, if he's not a Christian, but if he is, then He should stop sinning! God's will is for marriages to be healed and stay intact. If a man is violent and unwilling to seek help, then she has no choice but to leave. All believers need to repent and stop sinning. However, as I said before, it would be hard to believe that a true Christian would rape his wife.
You still seem to try to justify rape in a marriage. You may quote a lot of bible verses JBF, but I seriously wonder where your heart is in regards to your faith.
Also the verse about wife and husband not having authority over their bodies--"The two shall become one." It is not saying "You must give me my marital rights, it is talking about the act itself is of one's giving of oneself to the other and not withholding that as it is part of the marriage covenant. Again, since it use the word 'deprive' this would've been an ongoing issue.
Also in an earlier post you said the wife belongs to the husband--this isn't the middle east--a wife is not the property of her husband--they are co-equals and co-heirs with Christ. Again it's more like President and Vice-President than servant and master.
A woman needs to focus on submitting. The man needs to focus on loving her as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it. They need to be focusing on their role in the relationship, not each others.
And your solution was for the wife to leave her husband? Yes, if he's not a Christian, but if he is, then He should stop sinning! God's will is for marriages to be healed and stay intact. If a man is violent and unwilling to seek help, then she has no choice but to leave. All believers need to repent and stop sinning. However, as I said before, it would be hard to believe that a true Christian would rape his wife.
You still seem to try to justify rape in a marriage. You may quote a lot of bible verses JBF, but I seriously wonder where your heart is in regards to your faith.
An interpretation of 1 Corinthians 7:4
So, pulling these bits of information together, how are we to understand 1 Corinthians 7:4?
My understanding of Paul’s teaching here is that a wife or husband cannot make a vow of celibacy and permanently withhold sex without their spouse’s permission. They do not have that right or authority. Conversely, a wife or husband cannot have sex with whoever they want, because their spouse has an exclusive right of having sexual relations with them.
Here is my very-much-expanded paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 7:4.
A wife does not “have the right or license” (exousiazō) to choose to become celibate (or have sex with someone other than her spouse) because her husband has an exclusive right to have sex with her.
Likewise, a husband also does not “have the right or license” (exousiazō) to choose to become celibate (or have sex with someone other than his spouse) because his wife has an exclusive right to have sex with him.
A husband and wife should give themselves, their bodies, to each other, and only to each other, in an exclusive relationship (cf. 1 Cor. 7:2, 3). However, some Christian wives and husbands in Corinth were making vows of celibacy as a demonstration of ascetic piety; some were making this vow without the mutual consent of their spouse (cf. 1 Cor. 7:5-7).[4]
Other Corinthian Christians were promiscuous. Like many port cities of the ancient world, the city of Corinth was known for its sexual immorality. Immorality was also a problem within the Corinthian congregation (e.g., 1 Cor. 5:1-2, 9-10; 6:12-20; 7:2).
Conclusion
Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 7:1-6 to address the situation of some Corinthians who were choosing to become celibate. His concern was that this choice could not be sustained and would lead to sexual immorality.[5] We must understand this context before we try to apply Paul’s words today.
Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 7:4 is not a command, and should not be used as such. Paul states that his instructions in 1 Corinthians 7:1-7 are a concession (1 Cor. 7:6).[6] Paul’s intention, and the original context, must be kept in mind when interpreting and applying 1 Corinthians 7:4.
https://margmowczko.com/1-corinthians-74-in-a-nutshell/
So, pulling these bits of information together, how are we to understand 1 Corinthians 7:4?
My understanding of Paul’s teaching here is that a wife or husband cannot make a vow of celibacy and permanently withhold sex without their spouse’s permission. They do not have that right or authority. Conversely, a wife or husband cannot have sex with whoever they want, because their spouse has an exclusive right of having sexual relations with them.
Here is my very-much-expanded paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 7:4.
A wife does not “have the right or license” (exousiazō) to choose to become celibate (or have sex with someone other than her spouse) because her husband has an exclusive right to have sex with her.
Likewise, a husband also does not “have the right or license” (exousiazō) to choose to become celibate (or have sex with someone other than his spouse) because his wife has an exclusive right to have sex with him.
A husband and wife should give themselves, their bodies, to each other, and only to each other, in an exclusive relationship (cf. 1 Cor. 7:2, 3). However, some Christian wives and husbands in Corinth were making vows of celibacy as a demonstration of ascetic piety; some were making this vow without the mutual consent of their spouse (cf. 1 Cor. 7:5-7).[4]
Other Corinthian Christians were promiscuous. Like many port cities of the ancient world, the city of Corinth was known for its sexual immorality. Immorality was also a problem within the Corinthian congregation (e.g., 1 Cor. 5:1-2, 9-10; 6:12-20; 7:2).
Conclusion
Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 7:1-6 to address the situation of some Corinthians who were choosing to become celibate. His concern was that this choice could not be sustained and would lead to sexual immorality.[5] We must understand this context before we try to apply Paul’s words today.
Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 7:4 is not a command, and should not be used as such. Paul states that his instructions in 1 Corinthians 7:1-7 are a concession (1 Cor. 7:6).[6] Paul’s intention, and the original context, must be kept in mind when interpreting and applying 1 Corinthians 7:4.
https://margmowczko.com/1-corinthians-74-in-a-nutshell/
I would say that even in Western society the husband is the property of the wife when it comes to sexual relations and vice versa.
Right...so if the husband is saying, "I want to have an intimate moment with you" she ought to submit to that.
Crying "rape" means that she is not submitting to her husband when it comes to sexual relations.
Amen, I am in total agreement.
If he is a born again Christian, then he has already stopped sinning.
No; all genuine believers have repented and stopped sinning.
I agree.
The responsibility of the husband would be to deny himself if the wife is not fulfilling her responsibility to him and refusing sex.
Here is what I think that the Bible says about this.
Pro 27:15, A continual dropping in a very rainy day and a contentious woman are alike.
Pro 27:16, Whosoever hideth her hideth the wind, and the ointment of his right hand, which bewrayeth itself.
A woman who refuses her husband his right to sex is causing him to take things into his own hands...
And he may not be thinking of his wife in the process.
I'm just sayin'....
That this cannot be good for a marriage.
Right...so if the husband is saying, "I want to have an intimate moment with you" she ought to submit to that.
Crying "rape" means that she is not submitting to her husband when it comes to sexual relations.
Amen, I am in total agreement.
If he is a born again Christian, then he has already stopped sinning.
No; all genuine believers have repented and stopped sinning.
I agree.
The responsibility of the husband would be to deny himself if the wife is not fulfilling her responsibility to him and refusing sex.
Here is what I think that the Bible says about this.
Pro 27:15, A continual dropping in a very rainy day and a contentious woman are alike.
Pro 27:16, Whosoever hideth her hideth the wind, and the ointment of his right hand, which bewrayeth itself.
A woman who refuses her husband his right to sex is causing him to take things into his own hands...
And he may not be thinking of his wife in the process.
I'm just sayin'....
That this cannot be good for a marriage.
I'm sorry but I take 1 Corinthians 7:4 at face value.
1Co 7:4, The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
I consider that the wife's biblical responsibility is to not withhold sex in order to gain leverage in an argument.
1Co 7:4, The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
I consider that the wife's biblical responsibility is to not withhold sex in order to gain leverage in an argument.