Whoa, you're too fast for me. I was still adding to the post!Please go back and see what I added. It's an attempt at clarification, albeit not my best work.
This made me laugh out loud - and I needed that, believe me.
A racist God?
- Thread starter randyk
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This made me laugh out loud - and I needed that, believe me.
I like what you've written. It is well thought-out and obviously, you're educated. I appreciate these things. Pardon me for the long(ish) post below. However, I think that you'll appreciate how I put Scripture together in a easy to understand way.
You wrote: - "When Paul speaks of "true Israel" he is speaking of a standard that guides the nation by the covenant of God. When people do not live according to that covenant, they do not stop being a member of the nation, but God may throw that nation into exile and even kill some of them."
I think that it is wise to consider how Paul identifies who, or what, a True Jew is, and it so happens that this idea of his (below) will apply to anyone, whether they be Jew, Greek, Gentile, male, female, slave, or free. This is from the NLT translation, which I appreciate very, very much:
Romans 2:28-29 NLT - "For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."
So, being a Blessed Jewish man, woman, or Child is based upon one thing: A Right and Holy relationship with God. Now, to show that I'm not completely ignorant, I also recognize other passages of the Bible that indicate the "whole." And what [this] is based upon . . . well, I suppose this is where your position comes into account.
Romans 11:25-26 NLT - "I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, "The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness."
And this seems to all point back to the most important Covenant that the Lord established with, and through, Abraham (in Genesis 17). This Covenant that includes "all Israel" is referring to Abraham's physical descendants. If a person does not fall within the physical requirements of being a "descendent" of Abraham, that Covenant does not apply. However, the other half of that Covenant will apply to Gentiles who can be grafted in at any point in time. Thus, we have Exodus 33:19:
Exodus 33:19 KJV - "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
The above passages show us, EXACTLY, what Grace is all about . . . which is True Circumcision of the Heart, as clearly outlined in Romans 2:29 above. A Right Relationship with God is established through Circumcision of the Heart. It is after Circumcision of the Heart that a person is granted the ability to Turn and Repent, is then given the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and to those who must wait, the final Work of Christ was His Work on the cross . . . the sacrifice that made our Patriarchs and Matriarchs Right with God.
Romans 3:25-26 NLT - "For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."
The KJV translates Strong's G4448 in the following manner: burn (3x), fiery (1x), be on fire (1x), try (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- to burn with fire, to set on fire, kindle
- to be on fire, to burn
- to be incensed, indignant
- make to glow
- full of fire, fiery, ignited
- of darts filled with inflammable substances and set on fire
- melted by fire and purged of dross
- full of fire, fiery, ignited
- to be on fire, to burn
πυρόω pyróō, poo-ro'-o; from G4442; to kindle, i.e. (passively) to be ignited, glow (literally), be refined (by implication), or (figuratively) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust):—burn, fiery, be on fire, try.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 4448: πυρόω
πυρόω: passive, present πυροῦμαι; perfect participle πεπυρωμένος; (πῦρ); from Aeschylus and Pindar down; to burn with fire, to set on fire, to kindle; in the N. T. it is used only in the passive:
a. to be on fire, to burn: properly, 2 Peter 3:12; tropically, of the heat of the passions: of grief, 2 Corinthians 11:29 (English Versions burn (often understood of indignation, but cf. Meyer); Winer's Grammar, 153 (145)); of anger, with τοῖς θυμοῖς added, equivalent to to be incensed, indignant, 2 Macc. 4:38 2Macc. 10:35 2Macc. 14:45; to be inflamed with sexual desire, 1 Corinthians 7:9.
b. perfect participle πεπυρωμένος, made to glow (R. V. refined): Revelation 1:15 ((cf. Buttmann, 80 (69) n.)); full of fire; fiery, ignited: τά βέλη... τά πεπυρωμένα darts filled with inflammable substances and set on fire, Ephesians 6:16 (Apollod. Bib. 2, 5, 2 § 3); melted by fire and purged of dross: χρυσίον πεπυρωμένον ἐκ πυρός, (refined by fire), Revelation 3:18 (so πυρόω in the Sept. for צָרַף; as τό ἀγρυριον, Job 22:25; Zechariah 13:9; Psalm 11:7 (Ps. 12:7); Ps. 65:10 (Ps. 66:10)).
G4448 obviously is referring to burning in hell whereas the word for "burn" in Romans refers to burning with lust for one another; even as it is written,
Rom 1:27, And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned (G1572) in their lust (G3715) one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
The KJV translates Strong's G1572 in the following manner: burn (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- to burn out
- to set on fire
- to be kindled, to burn
ἐκκαίω ekkaíō, ek-kah'-yo; from G1537 and G2545; to inflame deeply:—burn.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 1572: ἐκκαίω
ἐκκαίω: 1 aorist passive ἐξεκαύθην;
1. to burn out.
2. to set on fire. passive to be kindled, to burn (Herodotus and following; often in the Sept.): properly, of fire; metaphorically, of the fire and glow of the passions (of anger, Job 3:17; Sir. 16:6, and often in Plutarch); of lust, Romans 1:27 (Alciphron 3, 67 οὕτως ἐξεκαύθην εἰς ἔρωτα).
The KJV translates Strong's G3715 in the following manner: lust (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- desire, longing, craving for
- eager desire, lust, appetite
- used both in a good and a bad sense, as well of natural and lawful and even of proper cravings (of appetite for food), also of corrupt and unlawful desires
ὄρεξις órexis, or'-ex-is; from G3713; excitement of the mind, i.e. longing after:—lust.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 3715: ὄρεξις
ὄρεξις, ὀρέξεως, ἡ (ὀρέγομαι, which see), desire, longing, craving, for; eager desire, lust, appetite: of lust, Romans 1:27. It is used both in a good and a bad sense, as well of natural and lawful and even of proper cravings (of the appetite for food, Wis. 16:2f; Plutarch, mor., p. 635 c.; others; ἐπιστήμης, Plato, de fin., p. 414 b.), as also of corrupt and unlawful desires, Sir. 18:30 Sir. 23:6; ἄλογοι and λογιστικαι ὀρεξεις are contrasted in Aristotle, rhet. 1, 10, 7. (Cf. Trench, § lxxxvii.)
Watch out for the leftists' lies about "white privilege" in America
The Privilege of being God's messengers:
"That is why the tribe of Levi received no land as the other tribes did; what they received was the privilege of being the LORD's priests, as the LORD your God promised." (Deut 10:9, GNB92)
"Through him God gave me the privilege of being an apostle for the sake of Christ, in order to lead people of all nations to believe and obey." (Rom 1:5, GNB92)
"But in this letter I have been quite bold about certain subjects of which I have reminded you. I have been bold because of the privilege God has given me of being a servant of Christ Jesus to work for the Gentiles. I serve like a priest in preaching the Good News from God, in order that the Gentiles may be an offering acceptable to God, dedicated to him by the Holy Spirit." (Rom 15:15-16, GNB92)
[About our friends in Macedonia] I can assure you that they gave as much as they could, and even more than they could. Of their own free will they begged us and pleaded for the privilege of having a part in helping God's people in Judea. (2Cor 8:3-4, GNB92)
The Privilege of hearing from God and being of the elect:
"How fortunate are your wives! And how fortunate your servants, who are always in your presence and are privileged to hear your wise sayings! Praise the LORD your God! He has shown how pleased he is with you by making you king of Israel. Because his love for Israel is eternal, he has made you their king so that you can maintain law and justice.” (1Kgs 10:8-9, GNB92)
"for you have been granted the privilege not only of believing in Christ but also of suffering for him." (Phil 1:29, REB)
"From Simeon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who share equally with us in the privileges of faith through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2Pet 1:1, REB)
Sin of the professing church, Christians, ignoring the poor and underprivileged:
"She and her daughters were proud because they had plenty to eat and lived in peace and quiet, but they did not take care of the poor and the underprivileged." (Ezek 16:49, GNB92)
God chose to spread his gospel from Israel up through the Roman Empire, and up into Europe. This privilege of the gospel came from largely white people in England (yet not chosen because they are white), and the Christians in Holland into America. America was founded upon Christian principles from the Bible, and the early American documents prove it. I want to keep the Bible based culture of our past rather than letting Marxists lie about it and destroy it. SO IF I HAVE 'WHITE PRIVILEGE' IT WAS GIVEN BY GOD AND I'LL NOT APOLOGIZE FOR IT!!
The Privilege of being God's messengers:
"That is why the tribe of Levi received no land as the other tribes did; what they received was the privilege of being the LORD's priests, as the LORD your God promised." (Deut 10:9, GNB92)
"Through him God gave me the privilege of being an apostle for the sake of Christ, in order to lead people of all nations to believe and obey." (Rom 1:5, GNB92)
"But in this letter I have been quite bold about certain subjects of which I have reminded you. I have been bold because of the privilege God has given me of being a servant of Christ Jesus to work for the Gentiles. I serve like a priest in preaching the Good News from God, in order that the Gentiles may be an offering acceptable to God, dedicated to him by the Holy Spirit." (Rom 15:15-16, GNB92)
[About our friends in Macedonia] I can assure you that they gave as much as they could, and even more than they could. Of their own free will they begged us and pleaded for the privilege of having a part in helping God's people in Judea. (2Cor 8:3-4, GNB92)
The Privilege of hearing from God and being of the elect:
"How fortunate are your wives! And how fortunate your servants, who are always in your presence and are privileged to hear your wise sayings! Praise the LORD your God! He has shown how pleased he is with you by making you king of Israel. Because his love for Israel is eternal, he has made you their king so that you can maintain law and justice.” (1Kgs 10:8-9, GNB92)
"for you have been granted the privilege not only of believing in Christ but also of suffering for him." (Phil 1:29, REB)
"From Simeon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who share equally with us in the privileges of faith through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2Pet 1:1, REB)
Sin of the professing church, Christians, ignoring the poor and underprivileged:
"She and her daughters were proud because they had plenty to eat and lived in peace and quiet, but they did not take care of the poor and the underprivileged." (Ezek 16:49, GNB92)
God chose to spread his gospel from Israel up through the Roman Empire, and up into Europe. This privilege of the gospel came from largely white people in England (yet not chosen because they are white), and the Christians in Holland into America. America was founded upon Christian principles from the Bible, and the early American documents prove it. I want to keep the Bible based culture of our past rather than letting Marxists lie about it and destroy it. SO IF I HAVE 'WHITE PRIVILEGE' IT WAS GIVEN BY GOD AND I'LL NOT APOLOGIZE FOR IT!!
JustbyFaith, you have quoted many dictionaries and lexicons, but you have not put it into a comprehensible or coherent presentation or argument. I've found that once having a dictionary definition or lexicon application in various verses, I need to examine how a word is used by an author or under the applicable covenant and put it into the flow of context. I know that in talking with other Christians who hold to the church traditional view as you seem to have, we end up talking past each other so much. There are some interesting statements by early fathers in the faith that shows early church understanding of the sin does not match the situation of two male friends sharing companionship and love, mutual emotional support and even sexual intimacy:
Justin Martyr:
“[W]e have been taught that to expose newly-born children is the part of wicked men; and this we have been taught lest we should do anyone harm and lest we should sin against God, first, because we see that almost all so exposed (not only the girls, but also the males) are brought up to prostitution. And for this pollution a multitude of females and hermaphrodites, and those who commit unmentionable iniquities, are found in every nation. And you receive the hire of these, and duty and taxes from them, whom you ought to exterminate from your realm. And anyone who uses such persons, besides the godless and infamous and impure intercourse, may possibly be having intercourse with his own child, or relative, or brother. And there are some who prostitute even their own children and wives, and some are openly mutilated for the purpose of sodomy; and they refer these mysteries to the mother of the gods” (First Apology 27 [A.D. 151]).
Chrysostom(347-407 AD:
“[The pagans] were addicted to the love of boys, and one of their wise men made a law that pederasty . . . should not be allowed to slaves, as if it was an honorable thing; and they had houses for this purpose, in which it was openly practiced."
I believe there is an old saying about throwing the baby out with the bath water. I believe the church has erred in how they have tried to combat the sodomites/LGBTQ, same-sex marriage, with such vigor that they are putting a stumbling block in the way of young Christian men from good families in the church; young men who have zero attraction to females and total attraction to males. The conservative churches have not given any workable solutions to these guys, only condemnation and give no more hope than that promised by the fraudulent, con-artist faith healers.
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Hatred, prejudice, mistrust, and divisions caused by race, religion, morals,
caste, color, wealth, poverty, privilege, and/or social status are very
effective at preventing a country's people from uniting against Big Brother.
_
Hatred, prejudice, mistrust, and divisions caused by race, religion, morals,
caste, color, wealth, poverty, privilege, and/or social status are very
effective at preventing a country's people from uniting against Big Brother.
_
where is your evidence
lol
you just saying stuff.
Is it in th Bible? no. This is a Bible discussion forum, What do you mean 'known to be black'. Had black hair? Had black skin? Had black eyes? or something else?
Its never mentioned, What is mentioned is that Esau was RED. And the edomites were somehow red.
Ahhhh . . . the great Esau Debate. What an amazing topic/concept to uncover and unfold.
Are you kidding me?
or there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being [d]abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
"A prophet of their own" is not a Cretan. He is one of these of the circumcision (judaisers) who's mouths must be stopped. Paul is not agreeing with this "prophet". "This testimony is true" is not the testimony of the prophet- it is Paul's testimony about him which he is saying is true.
the servant of servants thing that Noah cursed Hams son Canaan with, doesnt really show up in the Bible but when you get to the part about Joseph and his dreams, it does turn out that he was sold as a slave, but then he became the 2IC in Egypt and his brothers DID bow down to him, who had come out of the land of Canaan because they were literally starving.
The Bible doesnt follow the line of Ham for too long (Jacob descended from Shem if I understand it) but his wives Rachel and Lean were relations, however THEIR maids also had sons...and its not said where their maids Bilah and Zilpa came from...were they Egyptians like Hagar was or were they from Ham's line?
The Bible doesnt follow the line of Ham for too long (Jacob descended from Shem if I understand it) but his wives Rachel and Lean were relations, however THEIR maids also had sons...and its not said where their maids Bilah and Zilpa came from...were they Egyptians like Hagar was or were they from Ham's line?
What's interesting is that Genesis doesn't identify Adam as any particular race or ethnicity, but instead referring to him simply as man, mankind. The definition of Adam is mankind.
The OT told of people, warts and all. We are not to use their life to decide what is or isn't sin for even David who was dearly loved by the Lord sinned over and over.
Even Paul in the NT told of sinning, for he said he did what he did not want to do.
Under the nature of his "old man." When Paul wrote Romans 7, he was under the influence of the "New Man." Hence, he wrote of the Sinful Nature being cut away in Colossians 2:11. Context is key, here.
Great post, there is just a part or two that is offtrack. I think four pieces add context to the topic: "Not all of Israel are Israel" (Rom 9:6) and "The seed of Abraham's promise is singularly counted in Christ" (Gal 3:16), and "children of flesh are not the children of God, the children of the promise are counted as the seed" (Rom 9:8) and:
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Gal 3:29 KJV
Also, the "fullness of Gentiles" could be interpreted generation by generation or some other division of time as opposed to the strange idea that "none of Israel rejoins until the end of time" We see in Acts that 3000 of the house of Israel turn to Christ. Therefore the end of time scenario can't be the case.
I wish people one day will realise that black or white is nothing before God because we are spirits clothed in the body and spirits apparently have no color or race,Black or white we shall all die and stand before God and account for all that we are doing today,if you are christian and racist,you have to revise your understanding of God’s plan for mankind because it goes beyond the colors!!
Bullseye! The True "us" is trapped within a human body, and they are all bodies that are not only beautiful in the sight of God, but within my own eyes as well. All races and ethnicities are beautiful [to me].
Our bodies are mere vessels until we obtain the full Presence of our Powerful, Almighty God!
2 Corinthians 12:2-3 KJV - "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth . . ."