What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

cv5 · Oct 29, 2021

That is an illustration of what I have been saying....DENYING the plain words of Scripture. Replacing them with fantasy, philosophy and opinion.

Mat 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (eternal Gehenna fire)

cv5 · Oct 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I have had him on ignore for a long long time. Took him off so that I could nail down some Scriptures and posts to straighten out this annihilation heresy. He is going back to iggy shortly I'm afraid.

As you can see....spiritual blindness and deafness abounds. The harsh truth is evidently far too unpalatable. Defining God in human terms and constraints while denying Scripture is sheer folly and dangerous IMO.

Isa 30:10
Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

arpon · Oct 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Remember... I had pointed out that the word "destroyed [G2673]" in Heb2:14 means "to render inoperative, annul, render idle (useless), to make of no effect" etc...

It does not mean "annihilate" just because you imagine it means that.

"death" (and "hell/hades") will have just "DELIVERED UP the DEAD" (v.13) and then "death and hell/hades" were "cast into the lake of fire" (this is "death" being "rendered inoperative, annulled, rendered idle (useless), and made of no effect" (G2673 [as shown above ^ ]; according to 1Cor15:24,26)... again, not meaning "annihilated" but "rendered inoperative, rendered idle (useless)..."

The verses under discussion are NOT "apparent contradictions"... they do NOT "contradict" each other AT ALL.

Only in your own mind, where you've changed the definition of "G2673"!!

(used in Heb2:14 [re: "the devil / satan"] and in 1Cor15:24,26 [re: "death"] and in 2Th2:8 [re: "the man of sin" / antichrist / "beast (individual person aspect)" at the point in time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, per Rev19:20 and 2Th2:8b's "MANIFESTATION of His presence/parousia" [i.e. Second Coming to the earth], 1000 yrs prior to the "GWTj" point in the chronology)

"the second death" is not defined as "being put to death," for "death" itself at that point will have been "rendered inoperative, annulled, rendered idle (useless) [G2673]"... I believe this is exactly why v.14 is worded exactly how it is worded: "And death and Hades [/hell] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." This is NOT saying "put to death" ("death" will have been "rendered inoperative [G2673]" at the point when it has been "cast into the lake of fire," being the fulfillment of 1Cor15:24,26).

This means that it (v.14) is IN PERFECT AGREEMENT with v.10, which had stated, "and THEY SHALL BE TORMENTED day and night UNTO THE AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]" (which phrase in ALL 21 occurrences [see Post #230!] ALWAYS *means* forever / endlessness!)

Connect this with Gods Heart and nature I will totally agree with your narration. Cause without connecting nature of God our narration is incomplete, It is partial. These verse + Gods nature= complete picture. Thank you.

Runningman · Oct 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I do not ever place anyone on ignore. I am actually sorting through your post now. I'll give you a response.

Magenta · Oct 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

The last enemy that shall be destroyed G2673 is death.

Some G2673 usages:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin
might be destroyed, G2673 that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom. 6:6

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen,
yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought G2673 things that are: I Cor. 1:28

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom
of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: G2673 I Cor. 2:6

Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy G2673 both it and them.
Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. I Cor. 6:13

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; G2673 whether there be
tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. G2673 I Cor. 13:8

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. G2673 I Cor. 13:10

The last enemy that shall be destroyed G2673 is death. I Cor. 15:26

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could
not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: G2673 II Cor. 3:13

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away
in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away G2673 in Christ. II Cor. 3:14

And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution?
then is G2673 ➔ the offence of the cross ceased. G2673 Gal. 5:11

Having abolished G2673 in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained
in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Eph. 2:15

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit
of his mouth, and shall destroy G2673 with the brightness of his coming: II Thes 2:8

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished G2673
death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: II Ti 1:10

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death he might destroy G2673 him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

καταργέω katargéō, kat-arg-eh'-o; from G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless),
literally or figuratively:—abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no
(none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

Biblical usages clearly show that G2596 also means to cease, to pass away, be
done away, to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish.

Runningman · Oct 29, 2021

arpon said:

TheDivineWatermark is arguing in favor of eternal torment so I fail to see how that is either scriptural or in line with God's heart and nature. Just thought I would point that out.

Magenta · Oct 29, 2021

arpon said:

Consider that in the traditional view, the wicked are not being punished to learn something. There’s nothing remedial about their torment. Rather, God keeps them in existence for the sole purpose of having them experience pain. And this pain is without hope of ever being terminated or relieved. After twenty trillion trillion years of torment, the damned are no closer to completing their dire sentence than they were their first moment of horror. Is this view really compatible with a God whose heart was expressed in Jesus’ dying prayer, “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do” (Lk 23:34)? If agents get to the point where they are indeed hopelessly locked in their resistance to God, it seems more reasonable, just, and Biblical, to believe God would put them out of their misery.

From the annihilationist perspective, God’s justice and mercy unite in condemning the wicked to extinction. He justly punishes their sin and forbids them a place within the Kingdom, mercifully annihilating them precisely so they will not endlessly endure what the traditional view says they endure. source The lie of Satan is alive and repeatedly iterated to this day: "Thou shalt not surely die."

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 29, 2021

Runningman said:

Well, what I am saying is that Revelation 20:10 clearly states (re: the devil and the beast [individual person aspect] and the false prophet): "and THEY SHALL BE TORMENTED day and night UNTO THE AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]" [which phrase 21x ALWAYS *means* the SAME THING! (Post #230 - its 21x LISTED out)]...

...so that we should align our thoughts to this, rather than attempt to explain it away as "not being literally true" (but instead [supposedly] meaning "annihilated" or "made extinct"... the text does NOT state this; and I'm pointing out how all passages are IN AGREEMENT with this statement in v.10). = )

Magenta · Oct 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

The false prophet of the end times is described in Revelation 13:11-15. He is also referred to as the “second beast” (Revelation 13:11; 16:13, 19:20, 20:10). Together with the Antichrist and Satan, who empowers both of them, the false prophet is the third party in the unholy trinity. Who is the false prophet of the end times? | GotQuestions.org

Runningman · Oct 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

You left out one of the uses of "destroy" [G2673] which means "bring to naught." The KJV translators chose the most Biblically consistent translation which effectually means to destroy or bring to nothingness.

This is not imaginary as the word destroy in English means "put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it" and that is what the context of Hebrews 2:14 shows.

Notice that "through death" Jesus of Nazareth damaged/attacked the devil through spiritual warfare to put an end to the devil's existence. This is entirely consistent with the context, the usage of "destroy" in the English language, and the definition of [G2673] which means to bring to nothingness.

Jesus attacked the devil to bring him to nothing, to destroy him. The devil will be destroyed in the lake of fire which is the second death.
Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil

Death in Revelation 20:14 is G2288 thanatos means "death, physical or spiritual" in the Greek. This is a consistent English translation. The reading of death in Rev. 20:14 would be "the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism" to the average person, with no possibility of eternal torment.

I didn't say they are apparent contradictions to me, but, in keeping consistent with the doctrine of ECT, destroy/perish/death can't mean destroy/perish/death while there is such a thing as those in hell having eternal life, forever tormented.

I demonstrated above how your interpretation is not plausible.

Lucy-Pevensie · Oct 29, 2021

I've never imagined God presiding over hell, actively torturing people.
Poking them with hot irons & lashing them with whips or anything similar to that.
Eternal torment is a state of being or a realm.

God's justice & righteous judgement doesn't nullify his love.
It's not for us to determine that God is cruel for creating a realm of eternal fire.
Nor is it our place to say devils are not deserving of eternal fire.
God is the just judge of what is righteous and fair eternally. Not us in our limited understanding and fallen state.

One can only argue for so long. Eventually it comes to a point were we are only repeating the same points we've already made.
If we disagree, we disagree.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 29, 2021

Magenta said:

I don't see where your GotQuestions article is making the point that these two (who, by the way, will be "cast alive" into the lake of fire) are not HUMANS (if that's the point you are attempting to get across).

Sure, empowered by Satan (just like 2Th2:9 speaks to), but this is not all that different from when "Satan entered into Judas" in Luke 22:3 - "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve" even as Judas was a human also.

And "Nebuchadnezzar" was considered the "head" (representative 'head' ['thou art this head of gold']) of the statue, in Dan2:31-33,[34-36],37-38,39-43,[44-45], describing "kingdoms" (aka "the TIMES of the Gentiles" which refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" and pertains to "Jerusalem... TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles..." [UNTIL]). IOW, in this same way, I see "the beast" (Rev13:5-7,1) as both a "king [individual person]" AND a "kingdom" (as I explained more in another post... I think in this thread). And "the second beast" (the "false prophet") also being a "human".

cv5 · Oct 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I don't see where your GotQuestions article is making the point that these two (who, by the way, will be "cast alive" into the lake of fire) are not HUMANS (if that's the point you are attempting to get across).

Sure, empowered by Satan (just like 2Th2:9 speaks to), but this is not all that different from when "Satan entered into Judas" in Luke 22:3 - "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve" even as Judas was a human also.

And "Nebuchadnezzar" was considered the "head" (representative 'head' ['thou art this head of gold']) of the statue, in Dan2:31-33,[34-36],37-38,39-43,[44-45], describing "kingdoms" (aka "the TIMES of the Gentiles" which refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" and pertains to "Jerusalem... TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles..." [UNTIL]). IOW, in this same way, I see "the beast" (Rev13:5-7,1) as both a "king [individual person]" AND a "kingdom" (as I explained more in another post... I think in this thread). And "the second beast" (the "false prophet") also being a "human".

Absolutely correct. The beast is both a kingdom and a king.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 29, 2021

Runningman said:

Consider the passage where it is actually translated as "to bring to nought" (kjv): 1 Corinthians 1:28, and ponder deeply as to whether the passage is speaking of "to annihilate / obliterate [/ put an end to the existence of]" (it doesn't).

Then, as a supplement to that exercise,

CONSIDER also how "Barnes' Notes on the Bible" explains that 1 Corinthians 1:28 passage (with its "to bring to nought [G2673]" word--which I enlarged and underlined in the following quote):

[quoting]

And things which are not - τὰ μὴ ὄντα ta mē onta. That which is nothing; which is worthless; which has no existence; those flyings which were below contempt itself; and which, in the estimation of the world, were passed by as having no existence; as not having sufficient importance to be esteemed worthy even of the slight notice which is implied in contempt. For a man who despises a thing must at least notice it, and esteem it worth some attention. But the apostle here speaks of things beneath even that slight notice; as completely and totally disregarded, as having no existence. The language here is evidently that of hyperbole (compare the note at John 21:25). It was a figure of speech common in the East, and not unusual in the sacred writings; compare Isaiah 40:17.

All nations before him are as nothing.

And they are counted to him less than nothing and vanity.

See also Romans 4:17, "God, who - calleth those things which be not, as though they were." This language was strongly expressive of the estimate which the Jews fixed on the Gentiles, as being a despised people, as being in fact no people; a people without laws, and organization, and religion, and privileges; see Hosea 1:10; Hosea 2:23; Romans 9:25; 1 Peter 2:10. "When a man of rank among the Hindus speaks of low-caste persons, of notorious profligates, or of those whom he despises, he calls them "alla-tha-varkal," that is, "those who are not." The term does not refer to life or existence, but to a quality or disposition, and is applied to those who are vile and abominable in all things. "My son, my son, go not among them 'who are not.'" "Alas! alas! those people are all alla-tha-varkal." When wicked men prosper, it is said, "this is the time for those 'who are not.'" "Have you heard that those 'who are not' are now acting righteously?" Vulgar and indecent expressions are also called, "words that are not." "To address men in the phrase 'are not,' is provoking beyond measure" - Roberts, as quoted in Bush's Illustrations of Scripture.

To bring to naught - To humble and subdue. To show them how vain and impotent they were.

Things that are - Those who on account of their noble birth, high attainments, wealth, and rank placed a high estimate on themselves and despised others.

[end quoting; underline and bold mine for emphasis]

-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/barnes/1_corinthians/1.htm

-- [where translated as "to bring to nought" (kjv)] https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/1-28.htm - 1Cor1:28

____________

No, the passage here does not have this "G2673" word meaning what you are suggesting of it.

Yahshua · Oct 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

The king of Tyre was said to be once in the garden of God before being cast out (Ezekiel 28:12)...The Prince of Persia withstood the "Man in Linen" (I believe the pre-incarnate Messiah) 21 days to where He needed Michael's help - the Prince of Daniel's people - in order to reach Daniel (Dan 10:4).

So the angels are also considered kings and princes over human kingdoms, in fact, they are typically considered the prime movers of the affairs of men within them. So the idea that the beasts of revelation are also kings over their kingdoms doesn't necessarily mean they are human.

But to prove the point, recall that Apollyon from Revelation 9:11 is called the angel AND king of the abyss. Then when we read Revelation 11:7 the two witnesses are said to die at the hand of "the beast" that came from the abyss, after 42 months; 1260 days (which many consider the time of great tribulation)...so this is the same "Beast" of Revelation 13:5 given the same timeframe to persecute the saints.

So they're definitely not human.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 29, 2021

@Yahshua , well, for one thing, you and I disagree somewhat on the "chronology" issues...

...as I see the "2W's 1260 days" to STRADDLE the two halves (with the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" being MID-trib... when Rev9:1-2's "opened the bottomless pit / abyss" takes place); whereas the "2W" are killed (and then are resurrected and ascend up into Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (that is, AFTER the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth").

I do not agree that the "abyss" is opened MORE THAN ONCE. [11:7, 17:8... 9:1-2]

So that, when one considers each of the passages speaking to these and to the beast ("seven heads, ten horns" [13:1]), there's the HUMAN aspect (like Jesus was a "man" [who walked this earth]) and the "great red dragon" (sign in heaven) aspect (12:3) and the abyss aspect (9:1-2; corresponding with the time-slot of the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth," when Satan will be "cast out unto the earth, and his angels cast out with him" 12:12,9, when thereafter he will be "having great wrath because..." [corresponding with the time-frame expressed in 13:5-7, which correlates with Dan7:20-25[27]...

...and v.20 esp. describes this individual person aspect [he's the "mouth" Rev13:5 / Dan7:20 "horn [/king] that had eyes, and a mouth that spake great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows" and where v.21 corresponds with Rev13:7... but all of these also "connects" what Paul said of this individual person in 2Th2:4a "exalteth himself above all that is called God or is worshipped" to that of Dan11:36 [which is the break in the chpt where it had been speaking of A4E to now in vv.36 onward to that FUTURE individual person of the 7 Trib yrs... but 2Th2:4 [MID-trib] is not his FIRST action in his role to play out upon the earth... 2Th2:9a IS! "whose COMING [/ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / parousia"... [well-BEFORE the MID-trib point, when you search out all the pertaining passages... Not gonna do all that HERE

])

Magenta · Oct 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

The beast is also explained in Scripture as being false religions and world empires/powers that stand against God.

Then I saw a beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of the sea. There were ten royal crowns on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. The beast I saw was like a leopard, with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. Sound like a human being to you?

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

...meant to add: "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall ['fall', not 'descend'] from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit." Rev9:1 ('stars' being 'angels,' and in this case, 'star FALL' would correspond being "[satan's] angels cast out with him' Rev12:9,12 - 5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth, aka MID-trib point in the chronology]

TMS · Oct 29, 2021

Lucy-Pevensie said:

True, it gets to a point were the same points get repeated and repeated. We do have a limited understanding, but hell as invented by the Pagan/Catholic church is not part of Gods plans. If my loving God is going to keep people alive to suffer for eternity just because He can, it changes my image of Gods character in a bad way.
God is fair and Just. eternal torment is an invention of Satan and the few verses that seem to prove this can be explained by looking at context and understanding the text used. The Bible does not contradict itself.

Yahshua · Oct 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Ok, but I don't think I've ever clearly listed my view of Revelation's chronology in the forum...just sprinkling here and there from one topic to another... I really miss the old format of the website because I could post tables, but this is a summary of my understanding of Revelation's layout.

1-3) introduction and letters to churches...

4-11) vision from heaven's pov of the order of events, detailing the Messiah taking the throne, initiating judgment, but ending with a summary of: the witnessing & persecution of 1260 days, the 1st resurrection, and 7th trumpet (which would contain the 7 last plagues); "kingdoms of the world are becoming the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ...It is finished."

12-16) vision from earth's pov of the order of events, summarizing the Messiah's birth, to ascension to the throne, to satan's fall & persecution & witness of the saints for 1260 days, but then detailing that persecution from the 1st beast (42 months), detailing the 2nd beast, detailing the saints (144000) and their need to persevere as the message goes out to Almighty's people to "come out of [Mystery babylon]" (the same message of Rev 10 given to John to eat and to prophesy again = the two witnesses testimony), and finally detailing the 7 last plagues that fall on the earth (7th trumpet) as the saints sing on the sea of glass (i.e. 1st resurrection to heaven)... "it is finished".

17-20) parenthetical break, detailing the woman who rides the beast of revelation 13 and her destruction, contrasting that with detailing the beautiful bride clothed with the righteous acts of the saints...The vision of marriage to Messiah and His return to earth to destroy the beast and army (the 7th and final plague of the 7 last plagues), followed by a summary of satan's imprisonment, the 1000-year reign, satan's release to gather Gog/Magog army, destruction, etc... "it is finished".

21-22) All things being made new.

----

So I agree that the abyss isn't opened more than once. There's overlapping of the chronology by different visions explaining to John the order of events from different perspectives...something like what I have below:

...[4..........11]
[12..........................16]
....................[17..........20][21-22]

This is EXACTLY how visions were given to Daniel (each overlapping vision giving a little more detail of the overall chronology). This also means that I see each mention of 1260 days and 42 months as the SAME span of time not two halves of a 7-year trib, which then can be used to synchronize each of the visions...the same way "the feeding of the 5000" is a single event in time that synchronizes each of the gospel accounts. Great Tribulation is just 1260 days = 42 months = time, times, half time...from my view.

TheDivineWatermark said:

But with regard to the human aspect of the beast; this doesn't conflict with the antichrist/the beast being the angel/spirit apollyon.

If we continue to flesh this out; 1 John 4:2-4 says that the "spirit of antichrist" revealed himself in John's time and that "there are many antichrists" because it's a spirit/angel over the men of his kingdom ("the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and sanctuary..." - Daniel 9:26).

Building on what scripture explains to us; there are princes (i.e. principalities) over each nation. The "Man in linen" was held up by the Prince of Persia, a spirit. But notice from the beginning of that chapter that Daniel was in captivity under the rule of Medo-Persia, real flesh & blood men.

So the "Man in linen" battling the Persian principality equated to the children of Judah being subjugated to the people of Medo-Persia...and later in Daniel 12, we're told that when the "time of trouble" comes upon Daniel's people...which prophesies real flesh & blood people persecuting Israel...Michael - their Principality - stands up to do battle on their behalf in the spirit realm. This event can be synchronized with Revelation 12 where we're told that Michael wars with satan and his angels who later have great wrath for "the woman".

So the spirit of antichrist manifests in his people, and not just one person. Antichrist has been here at least approx. 1900 years according to John, leading many flesh & blood people who are part of his kingdom to speak blasphemy against the Almighty and to persecute the Almighty's people.

What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

Well-known member

Well-known member

Junior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member