What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[TheDivineWatermark]

@Laura798 's Post #260,

Are you talking to me, or to Nehemiah6 whose post you quoted? = D





...coz I'd said in Post #196:

this point in the chronology is "death and hell/hades DELIVERED UP the DEAD that were in them" for this final carrying out of the sentence, so to speak, of which this passage states that it ('the lake of fire') is:

"for ever and ever"/"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"

 

[Laura798]

All you have done is MISINTERPRET Scripture to fit your false beliefs. Here's one example:

QUOTING ONE OF YOUR POSTS IN THIS THREAD
'13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.… Note that verse 15 is affirming what has happened in verse 13. It is making it perfectly clear, what will happen to those who are judged. The angel explains what the lake of fire is--"The lake of fire IS the second death." Death means death--again the whole of scripture will need to be called into question if you do not believe death means death. perish means perish. Destroy means destroy. No suffering will exist in the universe--God said He is making "ALL things new", where there will be "NO MORE sorrow and no more tears." '

You have simply misinterpreted the second death to mean annihilation by saying "no suffering will exist in the universe". But that CONTRADICTS God and Christ so let me show you from Scripture how the Lake of Fire -- which includes eternal separation from God -- is not only the second death, but it is eternal suffering and torment. The meaning of the second death is eternal separation from God.

REVELATION 14: ETERNAL TORMENT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

So what do we learn from this passage:

1. It speaks of the fate of those who take the Mark of the Beast.

2. The Beast (the Antichrist) is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2, and there we read that all those who are deceived by the Antichrist shall be damned (v, 12). Damnation is eternal damnation in Scripture.

3. These are tormented with "fire and brimstone". That is the fire of Hell, the Lake of Fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels, and is called "the lake of fire and brimstone" below. Hence we read in Revelation 20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

4. Is is not crystal clear and plain as day that in Rev 20:10 the devil, the beast, and the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever? And does not "for ever and ever" mean "eternal" which means that this is eternal torment and eternal damnation?

5. And when the Bible says that those who take the Mark of the Beast experience "the smoke of their torment ascend[ing] up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night", that it is identical to the suffering of the devil?

6. And is this not CONCLUSIVE AND FINAL PROOF FROM THE BIBLE that the same eternal torment suffered by the devil and the Unholy Trinity will also be suffered by those who are damned?

So is this not proof that your are (1) misinterpreting Scripture, (2) making God and Christ liars, and (3) trolling? So now if you are indeed serious (and also afraid of serious consequences for perverting the Word of God), you should tender a public apology and let everyone know that you will adhere to what the Bible says.

And adding to my previous response--the fire that rains down on those on the earth who worship the beast--this is not the lake of fire.

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed."--Luke 28-30

"9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven[a] and consumed them, "--Revelations 20:9

 

[Laura798]

DW,
ALL of Revelation uses symbols and the angel explains what most of them are. The angel says the Lake of fire IS the second death.

"Fanaticism always comes from the isolation of verses."

And it is apparent that you have read none of our preceding arguments with their supporting scriptures. The literal verses state that man's end is death and destruction--DEATH is the penalty for sin NOT eternal conscious torment! If you believe that then you do not believe Christ paid the penalty for our sin by His own death on the cross.

As I said in a previous post, God is sending fire on the earth--the verse says "Those who WORSHIP the beast not worshipped.

This fire is the same fire and sulphur he rained down on Sodom and Gommorah. "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."--Jude 1:7 (

eternal fire--the fire is eternal NOT the thing being burned--it is figurative language signifying complete and utter destruction.

Nehemiah 6 , not DW--my apologies.

 

[Laura798]

@Laura798 's Post #260,

Are you talking to me, or to Nehemiah6 whose post you quoted? = D





...coz I'd said in Post #196:

My apologies, yes Nehemiah.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Okay, thanks. = )



I would add, in view of your latest post, that Rev20:9 ("devoured / consumed them") occurs chronologically before Rev20:13 (re: "the DEAD"... "death and hell/hades GAVE/DELIVERED UP the DEAD...")

 

[Laura798]

Okay, thanks. = )



I would add, in view of your latest post, that Rev20:9 ("devoured / consumed them") occurs chronologically before Rev20:13 (re: "the DEAD"... "death and hell/hades GAVE/DELIVERED UP the DEAD...")

Well, that is impossible--the dead rise; both the good and bad and then the judgment. You do know that Revelation is in sections and not chronological order?

Is the Book of Revelation in Chronological Order?

The book of Revelation is not in chronological order. The seals are the long story, the trumpets are the short story, and the vials are the real short story. They are three vantage points of the end time. You can view them in comparison with the synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. We know this is true because the 6th and 7th seal, the 7th trumpet, and the 7th vial all record the same event, the second coming of Jesus Christ. Also if the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ in Revelation 11:15, it would not make sense for the Antichrist to begin his rule in Revelation 13.

https://www.endtime.com/blog/book-revelation-chronological-order/

 

[ewq1938]

Since I quoted Scripture you are actually attacking the Word of God. So you are another one who cannot understand the Bible and is perverting the truth. There are serious consequences for doing this.

Since I quoted Scripture YOU are actually attacking the Word of God. So YOU are another one who cannot understand the Bible and is perverting the truth. There are serious consequences for doing this.

 

[Yahshua]

I bet Yahshua does Sudoku puzzles.

Nicely done, my brother.

That's HILARIOUS because I have...often lol!

 

[Yahshua]

NO.





[you've placed two distinct POINTS IN TIME into ONE POINT IN TIME, under your #1 of "CHRONOLOGY"--which I assume you meant FIRST IN THE CHRONOLOGY ("1." = if you mean, at the same moment occurring)...]




...sorry for clarifying



[sorry... I felt I had to clarify, since I did say that not grasping the "CHRONOLOGY" issues is a BIG PART of misunderstanding the various judgment scenes and the phrase "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"]

 

[Aaron56]

That's HILARIOUS because I have...often lol!

Of course you do.

 

[Gardenias]

It is disgraceful to see that at least 8 members in cc don't believe God's word about eternal torment in the lake of fire as literal but figuratively.

Who knows there may be many more!

Makes me wonder what ELSE in God's word they don't believe is LITERAL !

Course who knows they may not be believers and followers of Jesus either 🤷🏻

 

[Yahshua]

It is disgraceful to see that at least 8 members in cc don't believe God's word about eternal torment in the lake of fire as literal but figuratively.

Who knows there may be many more!

Makes me wonder what ELSE in God's word they don't believe is LITERAL !

Course who knows they may not be believers and followers of Jesus either 🤷🏻

 

[Yahshua]

It is disgraceful to see that at least 8 members in cc don't believe God's word about eternal torment in the lake of fire as literal but figuratively.

Who knows there may be many more!

Makes me wonder what ELSE in God's word they don't believe is LITERAL !

Course who knows they may not be believers and followers of Jesus either 🤷🏻

In the beginning dust of the earth was blessed with life. There is no scriptural evidence suggesting that the creature called man existed at any time prior to the dust of the earth being given life.

The issue - by which satan is called 'a murder from the beginning' by The Messiah - is that he caused Adam (and subsequently all of mankind) to die by perverting the understanding of the rule established by the Almighty.

"If you eat (of the forbidden fruit) you shall surely die."

The question is "what does death mean"? And why does the Messiah say "those who do not believe in the Son are already condemned". Why was the death (and not the constant burning alive) of animals required as a rehearsal for the payment of every sin year by year? The Almighty is very strict on performing the shadow rituals "according to the patterns" He sets.

If we go back to the original problem Adam caused - that Messiah was sent to save us from - we're told...

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Gen 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


And so as I asked a member here; after reading the above passages, where do you believe Adam is right now (if we're standing on what the Word says)? Did he return to dust as the Almighty said He would, or is he alive in heaven or alive in hell as tradition would suggest he is?

 

[Gardenias]

 

[Magenta]

It is disgraceful to see that at least 8 members in cc don't believe God's word about eternal torment in the lake of fire as literal but figuratively.

Who knows there may be many more!

Makes me wonder what ELSE in God's word they don't believe is LITERAL !

Course who knows they may not be believers and followers of Jesus either 🤷🏻

David is the apple of God's eye.

Jesus is bread.

Jesus is a door.

Jesus is a gate

There is much not meant to be taken literally. How sad to think we are supposed to.

Disgraceful to call the salvation of others into question over it.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Do you believe the bits about the "body and soul" being destroyed in hell, or those who do not believe in Jesus will perish, or the lake of fire being the second death as symbolic or metaphorical? If yes, then why.

I take verses like Matt 10:28, John 3:16, and Revelation 21:8 literally because I find that's more consistent.

I believe we are body, soul and spirit.

Body σῶμα (sōma)
Soul ψυχή (psychē) - Math 10:28
Spirit πνεῦμα (pneuma) - 1 Cor 2:11, Math 8:16, Heb 1:14

Fallen angels are spirits.
Your take on this isn't accounting for what happens to spirits eternally.

 

[Runningman]

I believe we are body, soul and spirit.

Body σῶμα (sōma)
Soul ψυχή (psychē) - Math 10:28
Spirit πνεῦμα (pneuma) - 1 Cor 2:11, Math 8:16, Heb 1:14

I agree.

Fallen angels are spirits.
Your take on this isn't accounting for what happens to spirits eternally.

I believe the state of the unsaved spirit will be destroyed eternally which is being put to death. This involves unbelievers and those who do not obey the gospel of Christ.

I believe being destroyed, or put to death rather, is permanent and will not be reversed. I don't see any such verses that talk of being put to death, then resurrected, in an eternal cycle of eternal torment.

Philippians 3:18-19
18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Revelation 21:8
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I agree.



I believe the state of the unsaved spirit will be destroyed eternally which is being put to death. This involves unbelievers and those who do not obey the gospel of Christ.

I believe being destroyed, or put to death rather, is permanent and will not be reversed. I don't see any such verses that talk of being put to death, then resurrected, in an eternal cycle of eternal torment.

Philippians 3:18-19
18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Revelation 21:8
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I have no belief in an eternal cycle of deaths and resurrections. I've ever heard anyone speak of that before.

This looks like it all comes down to what one believes spiritual death to be.
We both think the punishment is death and it lasts eternally.
You think that "death" for a spirit being means an end of all conscious awareness.
I think that "death" for a spirit being means being cut off from God.

We propbably aren't likely change each other's outlook. I think we'll just have to leave it as a point of disagreement.
I'm not likely to shift positions easliy. The last time someone spoke to me of annhilation it was a Jehovah's Witness.

 

[Runningman]

I have no belief in an eternal cycle of deaths and resurrections. I've ever heard anyone speak of that before.

This looks like it all comes down to what one believes spiritual death to be.
We both think the punishment is death and it lasts eternally.
You think that "death" for a spirit being means an end of all conscious awareness.
I think that "death" for a spirit being means being cut off from God.

We propbably aren't likely change each other's outlook. I think we'll just have to leave it as a point of disagreement.
I'm not likely to shift positions easliy.

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree.

One final question, where do you find that death means being "cut off" or separated from God?

The last time someone spoke to me of annhilation it was a Jehovah's Witness.

For the record, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness and I'm appalled by 99% of their doctrine. Nor have I spoken to one long enough for them to preach to me.

I learned about annihilationism just from armchair Bible studies. I believe annihilation is sola scriptura.

 

[Magenta]

I think that "death" for a spirit being means being cut off from God.

Isn't that minimalizing the eternal conscious torment element?

We propbably aren't likely change each other's outlook. I think we'll just have to leave it as a point of disagreement.
I'm not likely to shift positions easliy. The last time someone spoke to me of annhilation it was a Jehovah's Witness.

This is not a cultic belief. Yes, JW and Christadelphians teach these things, as does SDA, but also others outside any recognizable denomination believe without being taught from man. I always smile a little to myself when John Stott is mentioned in my church's preaching. One of the 20th Century’s most respected religious leaders, he was a highly respected conservative English Anglican cleric and theologian noted as a leader of the worldwide evangelical movement, and a principal author of the Lausanne Covenant in 1974. In 2005, Time magazine ranked Stott among the 100 most influential people in the world. Stott said that: "the ultimate annihilation of the wicked should at least be accepted as a legitimate, biblically founded alternative to their eternal conscious torment." I have heard he "recanted" of this position though I am not sure if that is true or not. What I am certain of is that he received a lot of high profile pressure to do so.