How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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I can't imagine what your point is--the dead rise and those alive meet them in the air--it's as if your putting some imaginary space of time between the two--one immediately follows the other. It's clear as the text CLEARLY says "will be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM.
The Return of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
The Return of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Exactly. He tried to say that the churches mentioned in Revelation 22:16 only applies to the 7 churches in chapter 2 and 3 and not the body of Christ. If that were true, and those churches are no longer standing, then the book of Revelation only applies to the 7 churches.
This means he inadvertently promoted full preterism in an effort to protect the pre-trib doctrine.
Once again, the only neat and Biblical way to tie together eschatology is with a post-trib rapture.
This means he inadvertently promoted full preterism in an effort to protect the pre-trib doctrine.
Once again, the only neat and Biblical way to tie together eschatology is with a post-trib rapture.
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ewq, are you saying that you believe the "Two Witnesses" are "Two Churches" (as opposed to two individuals / persons / prophets)?
I forget your viewpoint on that.
[I would also encourage the readers to look up the passages, elsewhere, referring to (like here in Rev11:4) "the God [or Lord] of the earth"...]
I forget your viewpoint on that.
[I would also encourage the readers to look up the passages, elsewhere, referring to (like here in Rev11:4) "the God [or Lord] of the earth"...]
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Hi!
Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
His church is not comprised of many physical buildings, but as many of those who are His....
as it was said:
And He (The Christ) is the Head of His body, His church, in the age of Grace....
God Bless!!!
Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
His church is not comprised of many physical buildings, but as many of those who are His....
as it was said:
And He (The Christ) is the Head of His body, His church, in the age of Grace....
God Bless!!!
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Right.
So, in your viewpoint, is this text stating that:
--the Two Witnesses are Two Churches?
--the Two Witnesses are TWO of the SEVEN churches specifically mentioned in chpts 2-3?
--the Two witnesses are TWO of some other churches... for example, "the church in the wilderness" [OT times, like 'brought forward in time' or something... kinda like Moses and Elijah being seen on the mount (of Transfiguration)] ?
--other [idea]??
... as opposed to "two individual persons / prophets" that most of us (at least, from the "pre-trib" perspective) perceive them to be referring to.
Your view?
So, in your viewpoint, is this text stating that:
--the Two Witnesses are Two Churches?
--the Two Witnesses are TWO of the SEVEN churches specifically mentioned in chpts 2-3?
--the Two witnesses are TWO of some other churches... for example, "the church in the wilderness" [OT times, like 'brought forward in time' or something... kinda like Moses and Elijah being seen on the mount (of Transfiguration)] ?
--other [idea]??
... as opposed to "two individual persons / prophets" that most of us (at least, from the "pre-trib" perspective) perceive them to be referring to.
Your view?
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How do you figure??
Nope... I've continually stated that the phrase (7 TIMES repeated in chpts 2-3 [one per each of the letters to them]) says, "...what the Spirit saith UNTO THE CHURCHES"
[IOW, each letter (of the 7) was intended for more than just that one location, see]
Again, how do you figure??
Nope... I've continually stated that the phrase (7 TIMES repeated in chpts 2-3 [one per each of the letters to them]) says, "...what the Spirit saith UNTO THE CHURCHES"
[IOW, each letter (of the 7) was intended for more than just that one location, see]
Again, how do you figure??
The Scripure IS perfectly clear.....just not to you. Despite being explained in no uncertain terms. Over and over and over again. Not a good sign.....
The Scripure IS perfectly clear.....just not to you. Despite being explained in no uncertain terms. Over and over and over again. Not a good sign.....
Nice try. That is a postscript....typical Greek construction. Refers back once again to the same intended audience of verse 1.
Rev 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 22:6 - And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 22:6 - And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Divine Water Mark--this doesn't make sense. The church is the body of believers and churchES in the plural are the simply churches (body of the believers) in the different towns/areas. There is NO WAY to take this as a letter to churches who are NOT a part of the body of Christ. Here are two verses addressing Churches in the plural aside from Revelation:
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
1 Corinthians 16:19
The churches of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Prisca, together with the church in their house, send you hearty greetings in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
1 Corinthians 16:19
The churches of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Prisca, together with the church in their house, send you hearty greetings in the Lord.
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@Laura798 ' s Post #2036...
All I'm saying is that, to say "[unto] the churchES" is not the same thing as saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"
There are ppl "in the churchES" who are not actually "saved" persons... though they come in His name... (but who are not actually vitally connected with Christ);
...do you not think that the ones being referenced in the following verse were (at some point and for at least some spans of time) a part of one or other of the local churchES?? :
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." - 1 John 2:19
[I'm not among those who believe one can "lose" or "forfeit" salvation]
All I'm saying is that, to say "[unto] the churchES" is not the same thing as saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"
There are ppl "in the churchES" who are not actually "saved" persons... though they come in His name... (but who are not actually vitally connected with Christ);
...do you not think that the ones being referenced in the following verse were (at some point and for at least some spans of time) a part of one or other of the local churchES?? :
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." - 1 John 2:19
[I'm not among those who believe one can "lose" or "forfeit" salvation]
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