How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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cv5 said:
Totally disagree. You are at odds with literally thousands of Scriptures and prophecies pertaining to Israel alone. Furthermore what you propose is obviates and makes null and void God's unassailable unilateral covenant promises.

Typical amillennialism......a heresy IMO. It demands that Israel gets kicked to the curb.....which is absolutely absurd. In fact the only reason Israel exists as a nation today is to fulfill end time prophecy and in order that God might FULFILL His covenants and promises to Abraham, David and Israel as a nation. Furthermore amillennialism insinuates replacement theology.....yet another heresy.
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Dear CV, When making an argument we ought to base what we say on Scripture as I did--I believe you didn't read the article--and the verse I shared is very clear--this sounds like 'your voice', not the voice of reason or Holy Spirit led--that is to say backed up with scripture not your own opinion or the doctrine of a chruch.
 
DavidTree said:
Laura798 and yourself both have part Truth and part error.

If you were to receive the Truth from Scripture that Laura798 speaks concerning the falsehood of a pre-trib rapture.....
AND
Laura798 were to receive the Truth from Scripture in Romans ch9-ch11 concerning the restoration of Israel of the earth.

Then, you both would have the Full TRUE Picture of what the LORD has said - AMEN
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Hi David, where is my error and the error in the article I shared--please point it out to me based on Scripture, not denominational doctrine.
 
cv5 said:
Totally disagree. You are at odds with literally thousands of Scriptures and prophecies pertaining to Israel alone. Furthermore what you propose is obviates and makes null and void God's unassailable unilateral covenant promises.

Typical amillennialism......a heresy IMO. It demands that Israel gets kicked to the curb.....which is absolutely absurd. In fact the only reason Israel exists as a nation today is to fulfill end time prophecy and in order that God might FULFILL His covenants and promises to Abraham, David and Israel as a nation. Furthermore amillennialism insinuates replacement theology.....yet another heresy.
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what's curious is you said 'thousands' of scripture , but you however didn't quote even one.
 
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Laura798 said:
Hi David, where is my error and the error in the article I shared--please point it out to me based on Scripture, not denominational doctrine.
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Please do not take my words as a negative(error) - we all have it as we all do not see perfectly.

What i mean by this is found in Romans chapters 9 -11 concerning the Lord's Second Coming, the Resurrection and the restoration of the seed of Abraham who are currently in darkness.

Please read these chapters and let's fellowship together in Him and the Bread of Life - His Word
 
Laura798 said:
Dear CV, When making an argument we ought to base what we say on Scripture as I did--I believe you didn't read the article--and the verse I shared is very clear--this sounds like 'your voice', not the voice of reason or Holy Spirit led--that is to say backed up with scripture not your own opinion or the doctrine of a chruch.
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Don't need to read up on heresies. The only way you know a counterfeit is if you study the genuine article....
 
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DavidTree said:
Please do not take my words as a negative(error) - we all have it as we all do not see perfectly.

What i mean by this is found in Romans chapters 9 -11 concerning the Lord's Second Coming, the Resurrection and the restoration of the seed of Abraham who are currently in darkness.

Please read these chapters and let's fellowship together in Him and the Bread of Life - His Word
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No it's fine--I've read some of your comments and I think you try to be respectful. I'll have to come back to the thread a bit later--love apologetics, but have to temper it with for example an INTERVIEW i have in 7 minutes. ):
 
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Laura798 said:
what's curious is you said 'thousands' of scripture , but you however didn't quote even one.
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My rough calculation is that there are about 1600 Biblical entries that quash amillennialism. Far too great a volume to post on a messageboard.
 
Laura798 said:
Dear DW--the Millenial Kingdom is symbolic as Christ is currently ruling and reigning on the earth. Note that nowhere aside from Revelation is the Millenial Kingdom mentioned in scripture. The present heavens and earth will be destroyed at His coming and a new heaven and new earth will come into being when Christs hands over His rule and reign to the father.


Article Christ is ruling and reigning now--1000 years is symbolic--all of Revelation is SYMBOLIC and the angel usually defines, if not we look to the rest of scripture to understand the mystery. https://www.mikeblume.com/isrule.htm
"24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."--1st Corinthians 15:24
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The Messianic Kingdom on earth is a constant theme with a lot of detail in prophecy. Sorry you've missed that.
It's not a spirtualised or symbolic Kingdom.
The heavens and earth are not annihilated at his coming. They are restored and ruled by him.
All of creation is redeemned.

The heavens & earth will pass away only AFTER the rightful King has reigned from Zion.
See Revelation 21 for when this happens.
 
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Laura798 said:
"24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."--1st Corinthians 15:24
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Hello Laura798,

Consider the following:

--in 1Cor15:24, the Greek word "THEN" is a different "then" word from, say, the one found in Matt24:21 ("then - G5119 - tote"). No, THIS "then" word in 1Cor15:24 is "THEN [G1534 - eita]" which is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO timing element attached to it;

--the words "come / will come / cometh" are not in the text (v.24) - https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-24.htm and https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/24/ss1/s_1077024 ;

--the SEQUENCE WORD ("THEN - eita" v.24) relates to the LIST of items in the previous verses, where v.20 speaks of Jesus' own resurrection (first LISTED item, of several LISTED items)... If the FIRST TWO LISTED items are some "near 2000 yrs apart," then there is NO PROBLEM at all with the last ITEMS LISTED being "1000 years apart," see...;

--Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 (at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot) is PARALLEL with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] (whereas, the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words of this Isaiah 24:21-22[23] text is SEPARATED by a TIME PERIOD... which is exactly the SAME PICTURE that Revelation 19-20 is showing there to be, where the GWTj [i.e. SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isa24] comes 1000 yrs AFTER His Second Coming [Rev19:21 "SLAIN" corresponding with the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isa24]);

--understanding all of the above, 1Cor15:24 is saying "THEN [sequentially] the end"... it is NOT saying (as the "Amill-teachings" have it) "Then [IMMEDIATELY] the end"







Hope that helps you see my perspective. = )



Laura798 said:
Dear CV, When making an argument we ought to base what we say on Scripture as I did--I believe you didn't read the article--and the verse I shared is very clear--this sounds like 'your voice', not the voice of reason or Holy Spirit led--that is to say backed up with scripture not your own opinion or the doctrine of a chruch.
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The scriptures are so many it's hard to pick just a couple.

Isaiah 60 (CSB)

60 Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the Lord shines over you.[a]
2 For look, darkness will cover the earth,
and total darkness the peoples;
but the Lord will shine over you,
and his glory will appear over you.
3 Nations will come to your light,
and kings to your shining brightness.

4 Raise your eyes and look around:
they all gather and come to you;
your sons will come from far away,
and your daughters on the hips of nursing mothers.
5 Then you will see and be radiant,
and your heart will tremble and rejoice,[b]
because the riches of the sea will become yours
and the wealth of the nations will come to you.

6 Caravans of camels will cover your land[c]—
young camels of Midian and Ephah—
all of them will come from Sheba.
They will carry gold and frankincense
and proclaim the praises of the Lord.
7 All the flocks of Kedar will be gathered to you;
the rams of Nebaioth will serve you
and go up on my altar as an acceptable sacrifice.
I will glorify my beautiful house.

8 Who are these who fly like a cloud,
like doves to their shelters?
9 Yes, the coasts and islands will wait for me
with the ships of Tarshish in the lead,
to bring your children from far away,
their silver and gold with them,
for the honor of the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
who has glorified you.

10 Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
and their kings will serve you.
Although I struck you in my wrath,
yet I will show mercy to you with my favor.
11 Your city gates will always be open;
they will never be shut day or night
so that the wealth of the nations
may be brought into you,
with their kings being led in procession.

12 For the nation and the kingdom
that will not serve you will perish;
those nations will be annihilated.
13 The glory of Lebanon will come to you—
its pine, elm, and cypress together—
to beautify the place of my sanctuary,
and I will glorify my dwelling place.[d]

14 The sons of your oppressors
will come and bow down to you;
all who reviled you
will fall facedown at your feet.
They will call you the City of the Lord,
Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15 Instead of your being deserted and hated,
with no one passing through,
I will make you an object of eternal pride,
a joy from age to age.

16 You will nurse on the milk of nations,
and nurse at the breast of kings;
you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior
and Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
17 I will bring gold instead of bronze;
I will bring silver instead of iron,
bronze instead of wood,
and iron instead of stones.
I will appoint peace as your government
and righteousness as your overseers.

18 Violence will never again be heard of in your land;
devastation and destruction
will be gone from your borders.
You will call your walls Salvation
and your city gates Praise.
19 The sun will no longer be your light by day,
and the brightness of the moon will not shine on you.
The Lord will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your splendor.

20 Your sun will no longer set,
and your moon will not fade;
for the Lord will be your everlasting light,
and the days of your sorrow will be over.
21 All your people will be righteous;
they will possess the land forever;
they are the branch I planted,
the work of my[e] hands,
so that I may be glorified.

22 The least will become a thousand,
the smallest a mighty nation.
I am the Lord;
I will accomplish it quickly in its time.

​
 
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TheDivineWatermark said:
--Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 (at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot) is PARALLEL with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] (whereas, the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words of this Isaiah 24:21-22[23] text is SEPARATED by a TIME PERIOD... which is exactly the SAME PICTURE that Revelation 19-20 is showing there to be, where the GWTj [i.e. SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isa24] comes 1000 yrs AFTER His Second Coming [Rev19:21 "SLAIN" corresponding with the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isa24]);
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Meant to add the passage to the bottom of that post:

Isaiah 24 -

21 In that day the LORD will PUNISH [1st of TWO "PUNISH" words = Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 (His Second Coming to the earth / Armageddon time-slot)]

the host of heaven above [/ the host of the high ones that are on high]

and the kings of the earth below [/ the kings of the earth upon the earth (comp Rev)].

22 They will be gathered together

like prisoners in a pit.

They will be confined to a dungeon

and PUNISHED after many days [/ and after many days shall they be PUNISHED] [2nd "PUNISH" word (i.e. GWTj 1000 yrs LATER)--with a PERIOD OF TIME intervening these two]







23 The moon will be confounded

and the sun will be ashamed;

for the LORD of Hosts will reign

on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,

and before His elders with great glory. [aka the earthly MK age time period, which occurs between the two]
 
cv5 said:
My rough calculation is that there are about 1600 Biblical entries that quash amillennialism. Far too great a volume to post on a messageboard.
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yes, of course--but then since there are so many maybe you could select at least three.
 
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Romans 8 (NIV)

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
 
and please share the link where you got your facts from--"1600 Biblical entries that quash amillenialism."

Here's another article with facts that quash premillenialism: https://www.tn-biblecollege.edu/10/the-false-doctrine-of-premillennialism/

"The premillennialists argue that the kingdom has not yet been established. Yet Jesus said in Mark 9:1: “Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.” There would have to be living people over 2000 years old today if the Kingdom has not come! Also the Scriptures teach that the apostles were to receive power of the Holy Spirit that would enable them to preach the Gospel to the whole world (Acts 1:8). This power came to the apostles on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4)."
 
cv5 said:
My rough calculation is that there are about 1600 Biblical entries that quash amillennialism. Far too great a volume to post on a messageboard.
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Funny, but you cannot seem to post one that irrefutably proves it .

Because they do not exist in Scripture for no lie is of the Truth.

Pre-trib rapture has no place in Christ and cannot be found in any of His Words - not even once.

How about just one verse where our Lord says: 'You shall not suffer the great tribulation'

Apostle Paul? give us just one verse where he says - "we shall be pre-trib raptured before the Lord's Coming"

Apostle John? can you give us just one verse where he says - 'we will not face the Antichrist, it will not happen until after we leave'
 
Psalm 102 (CSB)

13 You will rise up and have compassion on Zion,
for it is time to show favor to her—
the appointed time has come.
14 For your servants take delight in its stones
and favor its dust.

15 Then the nations will fear the name of the Lord,
and all the kings of the earth your glory,
16 for the Lord will rebuild Zion;
he will appear in his glory.
17 He will pay attention to the prayer of the destitute
and will not despise their prayer.

18 This will be written for a later generation,
and a people who have not yet been created will praise the Lord:
19 He looked down from his holy heights—
the Lord gazed out from heaven to earth—
20 to hear a prisoner’s groaning,
to set free those condemned to die,[a]
21 so that they might declare
the name of the Lord in Zion
and his praise in Jerusalem
22 when peoples and kingdoms are assembled
to serve the Lord.
​
 
Lucy-Pevensie said:
Romans 8 (NIV)

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
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From death to Life
From the grave to the Resurrection
From mortal to IMMORTALITY
 
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DavidTree said:
Funny, but you cannot seem to post one that irrefutably proves it .

Because they do not exist in Scripture for no lie is of the Truth.

Pre-trib rapture has no place in Christ and cannot be found in any of His Words - not even once.

How about just one verse where our Lord says: 'You shall not suffer the great tribulation'

Apostle Paul? give us just one verse where he says - "we shall be pre-trib raptured before the Lord's Coming"

Apostle John? can you give us just one verse where he says - 'we will not face the Antichrist, it will not happen until after we leave'
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I think he is referring to the Millennial reign of Jesus in that post. Not the pretrib raputure. :unsure:
 
TheDivineWatermark said:
Hello Laura798,

Consider the following:

--in 1Cor15:24, the Greek word "THEN" is a different "then" word from, say, the one found in Matt24:21 ("then - G5119 - tote"). No, THIS "then" word in 1Cor15:24 is "THEN [G1534 - eita]" which is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO timing element attached to it;

--the words "come / will come / cometh" are not in the text (v.24) - https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-24.htm and https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/24/ss1/s_1077024 ;

--the SEQUENCE WORD ("THEN - eita" v.24) relates to the LIST of items in the previous verses, where v.20 speaks of Jesus' own resurrection (first LISTED item, of several LISTED items)... If the FIRST TWO LISTED items are some "near 2000 yrs apart," then there is NO PROBLEM at all with the last ITEMS LISTED being "1000 years apart," see...;

--Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 (at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot) is PARALLEL with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] (whereas, the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words of this Isaiah 24:21-22[23] text is SEPARATED by a TIME PERIOD... which is exactly the SAME PICTURE that Revelation 19-20 is showing there to be, where the GWTj [i.e. SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isa24] comes 1000 yrs AFTER His Second Coming [Rev19:21 "SLAIN" corresponding with the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isa24]);

--understanding all of the above, 1Cor15:24 is saying "THEN [sequentially] the end"... it is NOT saying (as the "Amill-teachings" have it) "Then [IMMEDIATELY] the end"







Hope that helps you see my perspective. = )
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"Truth is ever to be found in simplicity and not the multiplicity and confusion of things."--Sir Isaac Newton.

I think it's best to simply quote scripture and not dissect it like this--I'm sorry to say I can't make sense of these First and Seconds. Please show me a verse that speaks of the Millennial Reign other than the symbolic one in Revelation--unfortunately if you take that as a LITERAL reign, then you will have to make everything in Revelation literal--the dragon, the prostitute, the many waters, the lake of fire, etc etc....

The danger of premillienialism is that it DENIES that Christ after his ascension is REIGNING NOW.

"We believe He came to earth to establish His kingdom and has been reigning as king since the church began on Pentecost. To say that Jesus is not now reigning as King would be to deny or belittle many major Bible truths. In particular, it belittles Jesus' pre-eminence as King."--https://www.gospelway.com/man/jesus-king-priest.php

See numerous scriptures in the above article.
 
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