Our new relationship to the law.

[justbyfaith]

So I read through your post and I have a couple of questions for you.

1. Please explain what Jesus meant in Matthew 5:17-19. Remember this is Jesus saying these things and he is the Master. I don't want to see the Servant quoted to rebut or refute the Master. I am a Gentile and not a Jew so the Law had no bearing on me to begin with, only the Commandments which Jesus pointed to as the 10 in Matthew 19:17.

That is incorrect, Cygnus.

The law still applies to you as a Gentile as through the judgments that have been declared in the law, all the world will become guilty before God (Romans 3:19-20).

Jesus taught us in the passage in question that,

1) it is not a salvation requirement that one obey the least of these commandments, as you will still be in the kingdom of heaven if you don't; only you will be called least.

2) The law will not be done away with until after heaven and earth have passed away; and therefore it will be utilized to judge the sinners who stand before God at the great white throne judgment;

3) The righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was impeccable outwardly; however, they did not have the righteousness of faith (Philippians 3:9); and therefore their righteousness did not extend to their inward parts (Matthew 23:25-28). They were like whited sepulchres that appear beautiful outwardly, but inwardly are like dead men's bones.

4) We must have an inward righteousness that exceeds the outward righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees if we are going to enter in to the kingdom.

5) the law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24), in that it shows man that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20); and is thus able to convert his soul (Psalms 19:7).

6) In Galatians 3:10, we find that if anyone seeks to be justified by the law rather than through faith in Christ, he is required to obey everything that is written as law in the book of the law. This also applies if anyone is seeking to enter into the kingdom on the basis of their own goodness or merit. See also James 2:10, Matthew 5:48.

Finally, are you the same Cygnus who used to have the Message Board called cygnus-study.com?

I took the liberty of also explaining Matthew 5:20; sorry if that confused you or anything like that.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The law of liberty is the ten commandments; as evidenced by James 2:10-12.

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, is a part of the civil law. Jesus, in Matthew 5, corrected people who used this commandment to justify personally taking revenge. That is something that is to be meted out by the courts.

You think the law of liberty Is the Ten Commandments?
I think the law of liberty Is the Two Commandments.

 

[justbyfaith]

You think the law of liberty Is the Ten Commandments?
I think the law of liberty Is the Two Commandments.

That too.

However, I believe that James 2:10-12 bears out that the commandments of "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery" are included as commandments in the law of liberty.

Also, if we love God and neighbor, we will not fail to be obedient to the ten commandments (Romans 13:8-10).

 

[seed_time_harvest]

1Jo 5:2, By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

The Two Commandments (law of liberty) not the Ten Commandments.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Two Commandments (law of liberty) not the Ten Commandments.

The ten commandments are not God's commandments?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

That too.

However, I believe that James 2:10-12 bears out that the commandments of "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery" are included as commandments in the law of liberty.

Also, if we love God and neighbor, we will not fail to be obedient to the ten commandments (Romans 13:8-10).

No man from the seed of adam could have kept The law perfectly and thou shalt not kill and thou shall not commit adultery are part of the Ten Commandments so I would ask,Is the Ten Commandments and the Two Commandments( law of liberty) the same?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The law Is GODs perfect standard of righteousness.

 

[justbyfaith]

No man from the seed of adam could have kept The law perfectly and thou shalt not kill and thou shall not commit adultery are part of the Ten Commandments so I would ask,Is the Ten Commandments and the Two Commandments( law of liberty) the same?

Luk 1:6, And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Phl 3:4, Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phl 3:5, Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6, Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

This is different from what might be answered to it,

Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

For sin is a matter of the heart and is not always outwardly evident through the breaking of a commandment (trespass against the law).

 

[Cygnus]

That is incorrect, Cygnus.

The law still applies to you as a Gentile as through the judgments that have been declared in the law, all the world will become guilty before God (Romans 3:19-20).

Jesus taught us in the passage in question that,

1) it is not a salvation requirement that one obey the least of these commandments, as you will still be in the kingdom of heaven if you don't; only you will be called least.

2) The law will not be done away with until after heaven and earth have passed away; and therefore it will be utilized to judge the sinners who stand before God at the great white throne judgment;

3) The righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was impeccable outwardly; however, they did not have the righteousness of faith (Philippians 3:9); and therefore their righteousness did not extend to their inward parts (Matthew 23:25-28). They were like whited sepulchres that appear beautiful outwardly, but inwardly are like dead men's bones.

4) We must have an inward righteousness that exceeds the outward righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees if we are going to enter in to the kingdom.

5) the law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24), in that it shows man that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20); and is thus able to convert his soul (Psalms 19:7).

6) In Galatians 3:10, we find that if anyone seeks to be justified by the law rather than through faith in Christ, he is required to obey everything that is written as law in the book of the law. This also applies if anyone is seeking to enter into the kingdom on the basis of their own goodness or merit. See also James 2:10, Matthew 5:48.

Finally, are you the same Cygnus who used to have the Message Board called cygnus-study.com?

I took the liberty of also explaining Matthew 5:20; sorry if that confused you or anything like that.

I do disagree with you,

1. Don't you think this might be the case where Jesus says "Sorry I never knew you!"? A tree with no Good Fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. I believe this is the image Jesus used. Then you have James 2:14-26, saying Faith without works is Dead!! The blood of Jesus saves me, but I don't believe it ends there.

2. The Law refers to the Jewish Religious Law. This was given after the Commandments. The Law does not apply to Gentiles, we were not part of the Original Covenant. I am bound by the Commandments as Jesus pointed out in Matthew.

I am not the Cygnus Study person, and I am familiar with Matthew 5:20.

 

[justbyfaith]

I do disagree with you,

1. Don't you think this might be the case where Jesus says "Sorry I never knew you!"? A tree with no Good Fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. I believe this is the image Jesus used. Then you have James 2:14-26, saying Faith without works is Dead!! The blood of Jesus saves me, but I don't believe it ends there.

2. The Law refers to the Jewish Religious Law. This was given after the Commandments. The Law does not apply to Gentiles, we were not part of the Original Covenant. I am bound by the Commandments as Jesus pointed out in Matthew.

I am not the Cygnus Study person, and I am familiar with Matthew 5:20.

Concerning (1), I refer you to Galatians 2:16.

Concerning (2), I will say this.

Rom 3:19, Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

By the law is the knowledge of sin; and by the judgments of the law, all the world will be found guilty before God.

Now, does all the world include Gentiles; or is it only speaking of the Jewish people?

Consider also this.

Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

This is saying that if we have faith today, there was a time when we were kept under the law.

The question being, are there Gentiles who have faith?

Thirdly, I would point out the following.

Rom 3:29, Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30, Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31, Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Here, the uncircumcision (Gentiles) are justified through faith. And yet, we are here also told that we do not make the law void through faith. We establish the law through faith.

So, since Gentiles are justified through faith (and not by it), the question arises,

Is not therefore the law established among the Gentiles?

 

[Cygnus]

Concerning (1), I refer you to Galatians 2:16.

Concerning (2), I will say this.

Rom 3:19, Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

By the law is the knowledge of sin; and by the judgments of the law, all the world will be found guilty before God.

Now, does all the world include Gentiles; or is it only speaking of the Jewish people?

Consider also this.

Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

This is saying that if we have faith today, there was a time when we were kept under the law.

The question being, are there Gentiles who have faith?

Thirdly, I would point out the following.

Rom 3:29, Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30, Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31, Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Here, the uncircumcision (Gentiles) are justified through faith. And yet, we are here also told that we do not make the law void through faith. We establish the law through faith.

So, since Gentiles are justified through faith (and not by it), the question arises,

Is not therefore the law established among the Gentiles?

Just to be clear, I still disagree...

I am not a Gentile trying to be a Jew. God made his Covenant with Abraham which became the Israelites or Jewish Nation. At that time it was not Israel plus the Gentiles, it was the Israelites. Through this lineage he raised his Savior for the world, Jesus. For me to approach GOD, before Jesus, as I understand it, I would have to do ALL the same things the Jews do. I have read those books and that is cumbersome to say the least. There was lots a person had to do just to approach GOD.

Enter Jesus, all these things I would be required to do to approach GOD are now null for me, because of the Blood of Jesus. I will say I believe we are to follow the 10 Commandments, as Jesus stated in Matthew 19. Yes this does mean Sabbath on the 7th day of the week or Saturday not Sunday. God and Jesus never changed this time, only MAN has.

Now I will say this also, My Brother and I were both raised as Christians growing up. My brother has converted to Judaism and I have remained a Christian. He is a reformed or Messianic Jew. Why do I tell you this? There is a difference and more than just 2 sides to this conversation. Jews would view or hold this differently than a Christian would due to the old Covenant.

I notice you quote a lot of Paul the Servant and not Jesus the Master, why is that?

 

[rayzor]

Just to be clear, I still disagree...

I am not a Gentile trying to be a Jew. God made his Covenant with Abraham which became the Israelites or Jewish Nation. At that time it was not Israel plus the Gentiles, it was the Israelites. Through this lineage he raised his Savior for the world, Jesus. For me to approach GOD, before Jesus, as I understand it, I would have to do ALL the same things the Jews do. I have read those books and that is cumbersome to say the least. There was lots a person had to do just to approach GOD.

Enter Jesus, all these things I would be required to do to approach GOD are now null for me, because of the Blood of Jesus. I will say I believe we are to follow the 10 Commandments, as Jesus stated in Matthew 19. Yes this does mean Sabbath on the 7th day of the week or Saturday not Sunday. God and Jesus never changed this time, only MAN has.

Now I will say this also, My Brother and I were both raised as Christians growing up. My brother has converted to Judaism and I have remained a Christian. He is a reformed or Messianic Jew. Why do I tell you this? There is a difference and more than just 2 sides to this conversation. Jews would view or hold this differently than a Christian would due to the old Covenant.

I notice you quote a lot of Paul the Servant and not Jesus the Master, why is that?

Are you saying Paul is against Jesus?Is the kingdom of god divided?

 

[justbyfaith]

Just to be clear, I still disagree...

I am not a Gentile trying to be a Jew. God made his Covenant with Abraham which became the Israelites or Jewish Nation. At that time it was not Israel plus the Gentiles, it was the Israelites. Through this lineage he raised his Savior for the world, Jesus. For me to approach GOD, before Jesus, as I understand it, I would have to do ALL the same things the Jews do. I have read those books and that is cumbersome to say the least. There was lots a person had to do just to approach GOD.

Enter Jesus, all these things I would be required to do to approach GOD are now null for me, because of the Blood of Jesus.

Not because you are a Gentile, I hope you understand; but because you are a Christian.

I will say I believe we are to follow the 10 Commandments, as Jesus stated in Matthew 19. Yes this does mean Sabbath on the 7th day of the week or Saturday not Sunday. God and Jesus never changed this time, only MAN has.

Now I will say this also, My Brother and I were both raised as Christians growing up. My brother has converted to Judaism and I have remained a Christian. He is a reformed or Messianic Jew. Why do I tell you this? There is a difference and more than just 2 sides to this conversation. Jews would view or hold this differently than a Christian would due to the old Covenant.

I notice you quote a lot of Paul the Servant and not Jesus the Master, why is that?

I spend more time in the epistles than I do the gospels; because the epistles hold doctrines of theology and that is where I want to specialize.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm responding to what's been said, not what have not been said. To repent means to turn from our sinful ways and start obeying God's law.

No. To repent means to change our thinking, and agree with Gods thinking

God then changes us completing the work of sanctification in us

You can;t change yourself and just stop sinning and obaying Gods commands as required BY HIM. You do not have that power

The water baptism signifies the washing away of our past sins. After repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus it would be foolish for us to turn around and willingly break God's commandments. If we make an honest mistake Jesus can help us, but if we sin willingly, look out! "...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation..." (Hebrews 10:26-27).

first off. Baptism is the washing of our eternal soul. ALL sin is forgiven. You forget God is outsise of time. He died for every one of our sins. not just our past one
second, If you think you sin only on accident, You do not understand what sin is, Heb 10 is speaking of living as the world. Not individuate sin. You need to focus more on God and take your focus off yourself. Even at your best. You still are a sinner who falls short of Gods glory.
Gods standard is perfection. Neither you or I have or can meet that standard at this time.

We still must obey all of God's laws and statues of conduct, from the ten commandments to the least commandment. We cannot choose to obey one without obeying the others. For instance, if it's still good to pay tithes (as many preach), then it is still good to obey God's dietary law (not eating pork, catfish, etc...Leviticus 11:1-47). Similarly, you cannot purposely trip a blind person (Leviticus 19:14) and claim to love your neighbor as yourself. Neither can you break God's Sabbath days (Leviticus 19:30) and claim to love God with all your heart, soul and mind.

If you obey ALL the law. yet stumble in one point. Your found guilty of the whole law

The law is there as a means to show you you are a sinner. Not to help you become a better person.

If your going to put yourself under law. You have fallen from Grace. It is time to again stop focusing on self. and to focus on God

We need to take the love God has given us and in turn share that love by Loving not only him, but everyone around us, Including our enemy. ONLY then can we be seen as living as God wants us to live

the pharisees lived by the letter. And they looked or acted nothing like christ. Because they were focused on the law. and self and how good they thought they were and not on God and others and what God really wants them to do (serve others)

When he confronted them. they crucified him

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That too.

However, I believe that James 2:10-12 bears out that the commandments of "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery" are included as commandments in the law of liberty.

Also, if we love God and neighbor, we will not fail to be obedient to the ten commandments (Romans 13:8-10).

A law of liberty states I am at liberty to break the law and that crime cannot be held against me

So not sure where you are getting that these commands are part of that law

The two commands you stated state that if I keep one, yet break the other, I am found as a breaker of the law. and guilty.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The ten commandments are not God's commandments?

They are called by Paul the minister of death engraved in stone

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do disagree with you,

1. Don't you think this might be the case where Jesus says "Sorry I never knew you!"? A tree with no Good Fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. I believe this is the image Jesus used. Then you have James 2:14-26, saying Faith without works is Dead!! The blood of Jesus saves me, but I don't believe it ends there.

2. The Law refers to the Jewish Religious Law. This was given after the Commandments. The Law does not apply to Gentiles, we were not part of the Original Covenant. I am bound by the Commandments as Jesus pointed out in Matthew.

I am not the Cygnus Study person, and I am familiar with Matthew 5:20.

You are bound to keep the law perfectly (the ten commands)

If you failed. you have broken the law. and are cursed by that law.

In which case. you, like the rest of the world. have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And would need to be rescued (saved) by the cross.

 

[justbyfaith]

A law of liberty states I am at liberty to break the law and that crime cannot be held against me

So not sure where you are getting that these commands are part of that law

The two commands you stated state that if I keep one, yet break the other, I am found as a breaker of the law. and guilty.

Freedom in holy scripture is not only freedom from righteousness; it is also freedom from sin.

If you are not sinning, you are being obedient to the law (1 John 3:4).

As believers in Christ, we are set free to walk in righteousness (John 8:31-36, Romans 6:12-23).

So then, the law of liberty (freedom) is the law that we walk in when we are set free from sin.

They are called by Paul the minister of death engraved in stone

The ten commandments are God's commandments; and the scripture in question says,

Jo 5:2, By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

So, it is saying that we love the children of God when we obey the ten commandments.

1Jo 5:3, For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6, And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rom 13:8, Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9, For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10, Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The law is indeed engrave in stone (it is external to them) for those who do not have it written on their hearts and in their minds; but for those who are recipients of the New Covenant, it is written on our hearts and in our minds (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:5, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5; 1 John 2:3-6).

In that we have the love of the Lord shed abroad in our hearts and this love is the fulfilling of the law.

If we love our neighbor as ourselves, we are not going to commit adultery with his wife, kill him, steal from him, bear false witness against him, or covet what belongs to him; and we also will not violate any other commandment concerning him. For the law is, in effect, the specifics of the love of God, for those who have the love of the Lod dwelling in their hearts.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Freedom in holy scripture is not only freedom from righteousness; it is also freedom from sin.

If you are not sinning, you are being obedient to the law (1 John 3:4).

As believers in Christ, we are set free to walk in righteousness (John 8:31-36, Romans 6:12-23).

So then, the law of liberty (freedom) is the law that we walk in when we are set free from sin.



The ten commandments are God's commandments; and the scripture in question says,

Jo 5:2, By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

So, it is saying that we love the children of God when we obey the ten commandments.

1Jo 5:3, For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6, And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rom 13:8, Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9, For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10, Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The law is indeed engrave in stone (it is external to them) for those who do not have it written on their hearts and in their minds; but for those who are recipients of the New Covenant, it is written on our hearts and in our minds (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:5, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5; 1 John 2:3-6).

In that we have the love of the Lord shed abroad in our hearts and this love is the fulfilling of the law.

If we love our neighbor as ourselves, we are not going to commit adultery with his wife, kill him, steal from him, bear false witness against him, or covet what belongs to him; and we also will not violate any other commandment concerning him. For the law is, in effect, the specifics of the love of God, for those who have the love of the Lod dwelling in their hearts.

2 Cor 3:
And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the [a]Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant
7 But if the ministry of death, written andengraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains ismuch more glorious.

 

[justbyfaith]

2 Cor 3:
And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the [a]Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant
7 But if the ministry of death, written andengraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains ismuch more glorious.

You forgot what is in the context.

2Co 3:1, Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2Co 3:2, Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3, Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.