Baptized for the dead ?

Pilgrimshope · Sep 28, 2021

It seems there was a practice in early Christianity of being baptized for the dead. Does anyone know anything other than this passage about this subject ? I have no clue but it does seem that Paul is mentioning it as a practice in Christianity

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

any thoughts and especially any relevant scripture is appreciated

KelbyofGod · Sep 28, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

What a wonderful opportunity you have to ask God and trust him to reveal a mystery to you. (honest, not smug)

Meanwhile, I'll say this:
I've wondered that for years, and can only share a relationship of TWO things that stood out recently. First, Paul was trying to get them to understand that resurrection is a reality. Second, it appears that some among them had engaged in a practice of baptizing themselves on behalf of people who had already died.

Paul had a philosophy/practice of working with the current beliefs of those he was teaching, rather than immediately pointing out areas of disagreement. 1 Corinthians 9:20-22:

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; [21] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. [22] To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some."

So... without passing judgment, Paul was simply pointing out how their current practice could have ZERO effect without the reality of resurrection.

Love in Jesus,

Kelby

Icedaisey · Sep 28, 2021

I don't think all early Christians adopted the practice. As I recall baptism for the dead is adopted by Mormons. Based on 1 Corinthians 15:29
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

Constable's Expository Notes
"...Baptism for the dead was a custom in at least one of the mystery religions, one based close to Corinth in the neighboring town of Eleusis: the Eleusian mystery religion. ..."

Pilgrimshope · Sep 28, 2021

KelbyofGod said:

yeah I sort of try to stay within the bounds of scripture regarding mysteries presented in scripture, lol and wouldn’t be ( smug ) with God or anyone else but sometimes people perceive smugness no matter what we do

. Feel like a good way to learn is to ask people who also know and study scripture and for thier thoughts like you left here. I appreciate your thoughts , God bless

Jocund · Sep 28, 2021

Possible reference to baptism in the name of Moses. E.g. 1 Cor 10:2

BroTan · Sep 28, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

Paul just saying that if Christ didn't rise out of the grave we would of been baptize for the dead, so there would be no resurrection.

Let's start at verse 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is talking about the first resurrection. Lets go into 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

If you sleep in Jesus it means you have done his will. Lets keep reading and see how Jesus bring the saints with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This verse just told us that some will be alive to be in this first resurrection, the coming of Jesus, and there are those who will be asleep.

Notice they asleep and not in heaven chilling and watching over people, smiling at all this hell going on.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Notice: Only the dead in Christ will rise first, but the Lord has descended...meaning coming down

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice those that were asleep or dead rise first, then those which are alive and remain rise next, to meet the Lord in the air, and altogether we come up in the first resurrection.

Paul also said in 1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Let's get back to 1 Corinthians 15: 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

So if you came under the blood of Jesus and got baptize in the name of Jesus and he Jesus didn't raise, there would be resurrection for the dead. It would be like being baptize for the dead.

Notice: 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Mostly these are people who don't believe in the resurrection, like the Sadducees. Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying, (Mark 12: 18)

Adstar · Sep 28, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

Baptizing the dead is not a Biblical supported teaching / doctrine.. So it is not a Christian practice.. I know that the Mormons have that practice, whenever a new convert joins their cult they seek out that persons ancestor records and perform a symbolic baptism for all the known ancestors of the new convert.. It's ridiculous..

Katia · Sep 29, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

It seems there was a practice in early Christianity of being baptized for the dead. Does anyone know anything other than this passage about this subject ? I have no clue but it does seem that Paul is mentioning it as a practice in Christianity

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

any thoughts and especially any relevant scripture is appreciated

Members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints do that in their temples.

Nehemiah6 · Sep 29, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

If anything it was an erroneous practice. Paul is simply pointing out that regardless of their error these people believed in the resurrection. There is absolutely no biblical basis for this practice.

p_rehbein · Sep 29, 2021

EXCERPT:

The simplest reading of the text is that some Corinthian Christians were baptized vicariously on behalf of some who’d already died, seeking a spiritual benefit. The problem with this view, though, is twofold. First, there is no precedent for baptism for the dead in the Bible, the early church, or pagan religions. No one knows who did it or what spiritual benefit they sought. Second, the notion of Christians being baptizing for the sake of those who’ve died offends our theology. It sounds like a magical sacramentalism. It seems to contradict justification by faith alone.

HERE:

What Does Paul Mean by ‘Baptism for the Dead’?

The part of this Article I find most profitable is the first part though.......

The phrase “baptism for the dead” is so obscure and perplexing, the meaning so uncertain, and the variety of interpretations so numerous that it seems wise to say it seems impossible to know what the phrase means. Given the difficulties, some wonder why we should even bother to investigate. But baptism for the dead matters, both because Mormons place extraordinary importance on it, and also because Paul uses it to defend the coming resurrection of believers.

Article worth reading..........

EternalFire · Sep 29, 2021

This video contains some interesting thoughts on the topic that most have probably not considered.

Journeyman · Sep 29, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

Paul is referring back to vs.12,

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among youthat there is no resurrection of the dead?.......Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? (for Christ).
vss.12, 29

Moses_Young · Sep 29, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

It seems there was a practice in early Christianity of being baptized for the dead. Does anyone know anything other than this passage about this subject ? I have no clue but it does seem that Paul is mentioning it as a practice in Christianity

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

any thoughts and especially any relevant scripture is appreciated

I'm thinking early Christians never did that, and that it was early Mormons, which are a cult.

oldhermit · Sep 29, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

In verses 29-34 Paul argues the futility believing there is no resurrection, 29-34.

“Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, ‘Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!’”

“Do not be deceived: ‘Evil company corrupts good habits.’ Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.”

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then why......

A. The practice of a proxy baptism – “what will they do who are baptized for the dead…? Why then are they baptized for the dead?”

1. The first thing that has to be acknowledged here is that Paul affirms the existence of the practice at Corinth.

2. The second thing is that the existence of this practice testifies to the enormous importance that the early Church placed on baptism, even though this practice represents a perversion of it.

3. The third thing is that Paul does not ask, “why do you or we” but, why do “they,” whoever the ‘they' were. Paul is clearly separating himself and others at those at Corinth who did not practice this ritual for dead, from those who did. It must also be noted that Paul is not giving credence to the practice. He simply acknowledges that some, whom he does not identify, were practicing this, and it would appear that it was from among some of those who were claiming there was no resurrection.

This reveals the existence of yet another faction that existed among those at Corinth just like those who were forbidding to marry, and like those who had divided into factions over baptism, etc…. Some were teaching that there was no resurrection from the dead while at the same time, practicing this proxy ritual of baptism for the dead. Paul is not offering a defense for this practice. Rather, he is stressing the obvious absurdity of denying the resurrection and then baptizing for those who had died. How would they propose to defend the logic of this? Paul is not legitimizing the practice; he is showing the absurdity of it.

Omegatime · Sep 29, 2021

I like the explanation in the RSV concerning this scripture. Appears to me Paul s speaking of the unrighteous.

29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

Just a closer walk with thee.----George Jones

Aaron56 · Sep 29, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

Thanks for this thread. This is one of the verses that I have wanted to look into more thoroughly. I was certain this was not speaking about in proxy baptism but I had no clarity beyond that.

I believe it is found within the context of the passage:

"29Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? 30And why do we stand in [e]jeopardy every hour? 31I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”"

Paul is juxtaposing the reality of Christ's resurrection against the belief that there is no resurrection. This is much of the point of the first part of the chapter and throughout. Such is a common occurrence in Paul's writing: to speak foolishly from a terrestrial perspective and compare it to the wisdom from above. Like in this passage:

"What I speak, I speak not according to the Lord, but as it were, foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 18Seeing that many boast according to the flesh, I also will boast. 19For you put up with fools gladly, since you yourselves are wise! 20For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face. 21To our shame I say that we were too weak for that! But in whatever anyone is bold—I speak foolishly—I am bold also."

So, to paraphrase the original passage:

"If Christ remains dead, then what will happen to those who are baptized in the name of a dead person? Why even be baptized for a dead man at all? And why do I put myself in harm's way if my life is vulnerable and there is no promise of resurrection? If I fought, as a man would fight, beasts in Ephesus (perhaps animals or perhaps enemies of the gospel) and risked my life, what advantage was it to me? If the dead do not rise, then we should be heathens like all men and just fill our bellies today because we might die tomorrow."

The last part of the last verse: “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”...

..is a quote from Ecclesiastes 8: "So I commended enjoyment, because a man has nothing better under the sun than to eat, drink, and be merry..."

This is given as an example of the vanity of man.

Aaron56

Runningman · Sep 29, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

The suggestion is that Christians who do not get baptized will not be resurrected. It doesn't directly state that, but it's implied. Also it isn't repeated again in other Bible passges.

The idea of getting baptized for the dead is the hope they'll be in the first resurrection. Baptism is symbolic of being raised with Christ in newness of life. Perhaps they took it too literally or letters about baptism relating to the first resurrection have been lost to time.

So the most common interpretation of baptism for the dead is that it's rhetorical and unnecessary.

Pilgrimshope · Sep 29, 2021

p_rehbein said:

EXCERPT:

The simplest reading of the text is that some Corinthian Christians were baptized vicariously on behalf of some who’d already died, seeking a spiritual benefit. The problem with this view, though, is twofold. First, there is no precedent for baptism for the dead in the Bible, the early church, or pagan religions. No one knows who did it or what spiritual benefit they sought. Second, the notion of Christians being baptizing for the sake of those who’ve died offends our theology. It sounds like a magical sacramentalism. It seems to contradict justification by faith alone.

HERE:

What Does Paul Mean by ‘Baptism for the Dead’?

The part of this Article I find most profitable is the first part though.......

The phrase “baptism for the dead” is so obscure and perplexing, the meaning so uncertain, and the variety of interpretations so numerous that it seems wise to say it seems impossible to know what the phrase means. Given the difficulties, some wonder why we should even bother to investigate. But baptism for the dead matters, both because Mormons place extraordinary importance on it, and also because Paul uses it to defend the coming resurrection of believers.

Article worth reading..........

I appreciate the thoughts and will check it out thanks for taking the time to
Consider the question

Pilgrimshope · Sep 29, 2021

Runningman said:

yes that was sort of the point of the question was wondering if anyone had ran across other scripture touching on it.

I don’t think if we just take the text there’s anything rhetorical about it he seems to be pointing out something some we’re doing and saying “ why do that if there is no resurrection ?”

So he’s on this long talk of the resurrection and then uses a few examples I don’t see why or for what purpose he would randomly throw in a rhetorical statement

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?

why are they then baptized for the dead?

And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:29-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Part of the reason I posted this was just to ask about anyone who had came across other scripture touching on it I myself don’t think it’s rhetorical. He seems to be posing to questions and using those questions as an argument and exhortation to believe in a coming resurrection.

notice how he used the example of something and then makes it an argument for the resurrection?

it , to me is something I don’t understand which is the point of the op to gather others thinking but especially anyone who had came across other scripture and I thank you for the thoughts .

I do think it’s something they were practicing I think you have a good point and agree it isnt something that’s widely taught in the scriptures , and I myself have never read anything else about it in any scripture but was hoping some others may have I don’t think I agree with the view that a few others have posed there that it’s irrelevant and doesn’t mean anything.

but again I have no conclusion on it which was the point of inviting others thinking I appreciate yours

Pilgrimshope · Sep 29, 2021

Aaron56 said:

so do you think it’s something they were practicing and Paul was asking them

for instance another place as he’s approaching that statement

“Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:15-17‬ ‭

he uses a true and real example to argue there is a resurrection . It seems this segment of his letter is repetitive tonthe same point of saying “ if there’s no resurrection then all this is foolishness and we’re believing in vein “

“Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not?

let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:29-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems he’s making a strong argument that there is a resurrection of the dead because some were teaching there isn’t one , and using several examples they would understand to make the argument he then of course moves into “ how “a body decays and then will be resurrected and the change that happens …

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35-37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t know how to take the subject it is very much there for us to read , and seems out of place for our to make an argument about reality in all the other verses but then out of nowhere use an example that has no meaning tonthe church at Corinth

I appreciate your thoughts there brother always some good thinking in your posts

Baptized for the dead ?

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