Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[eternally-gratefull]

As for Dogs and sows..They were never made new creatures. it is why they returned to what they were.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think you missed an important point in this story. The younger son took all that fell to him and left. The father did not stop him from going. When the son found himself in dire straits he decided to return to his home. The father did not have to take him back but did out of love for a lost son.

All true, but not the point.

Notice that the son made the choice to leave and also made the choice to return. Although the father loved the son if the son had not confessed his sins but instead had said well you had to take be back because I am your son how do you think the story would have gone.

Fortunately we don't have to second guess the story. Jesus tells us what He wants us to know. We are not to guess "what if".

Do you really think that God will accept back those that have repudiated their faith in Christ Jesus if they do not repent. Yes God loves but He has also set a condition of salvation, FAITH.

Please recall what Jesus taught. In John 5:24 He said that those who believe have (possess) eternal life. So, the MOMENT one believes, they HAVE eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER perish.

You either believe what Jesus taught or your don't. So, a believer who repudiates his faith STILL POSSESSES eternal life. And on THAT basis, he shall NEVER perish. Because Jesus said so.

In John 10:28 there were no "conditions" given for never perishing. ALL recipients shall never perish is what Jesus said. He didn't say "some" recipients, or "only the faithful recipients" which is what it seem you believe.

Also note that even though the father loved the son if the son had never come back he would still be lost. So this does not support OSAS

This isn't about salvation. It's about fellowship, the loss of fellowship and confession of sin and repentance.

All this is about what believers need to do when they sin and are out of fellowship. They need restoration of fellowship. Which is only available through confession and repentance, as the parable shows clearly.

 

[Icedaisey]

the prodigal son is the children of God that realize their sinfulness and repent and return to God. By grace God accepts us. Those that were lost but are found saved by grace.

Where in the Bible are we told fallen unrepentant sinners are called son and daughter of God? (John 1:12-12)

Where in scripture are we told fallen unrepentant sinners have an inheritance? (Romans 8:17)

 

[Jimbone]

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

I don't need you or anyone else to go through the bible and explain to me why each line they look at doesn't really mean what it says, and that it REALLY means what you say it means. No thanks I don't agree with the way you've interpreted any of these verses and believe you've looked at them with the goal of making them fit your beliefs, that's the wrong way to read the bible. Jesus tells us that He loses NONE the Fathers given Him. I take His word over yours forever.

 

[Justified]

If you wish to hold to OSAS then do it but I see a number of verses that lead me to the opposite view. To me the question becomes, if God is love and He is then He would not force anyone to be with Him that did not want to be. Yes we are told the no one can snatch them from Gods' hand and I believe that but I also believe that a person can walk away. If that were not possible then way the warnings about apostasy or turning back? Remember you cannot fall away from somewhere that you have not been.

 

[Jimbone]

If you wish to hold to OSAS then do it but I see a number of verses that lead me to the opposite view. To me the question becomes, if God is love and He is then He would not force anyone to be with Him that did not want to be. Yes we are told the no one can snatch them from Gods' hand and I believe that but I also believe that a person can walk away. If that were not possible then way the warnings about apostasy or turning back? Remember you cannot fall away from somewhere that you have not been.

I understand this. I shared this view for a time as I grew, (and please understand I do not mean this arrogantly, or trying to imply I'm "further along than you", or anything at all like that) I'm not trying to "teach you" only share the fact that I do truly understand exactly where you're coming from because I reasoned it out that way too. (in fact I'm sure I have old comments on here saying this exact thing) Like, if I use my "free will" to choose Him do I then loose my "free will" the second I'm saved? Could I then, in theory of course, not choose to turn from him after being saved? Honestly that made no sense to me at all, even though we are clearly taught that we are going to be slaves of sin or slaves of Christ, right? The way I now look at it is honestly a combination of the two views, I know imagine the truth may lay somewhere in-between, but ultimately I believe 100% that once we are born again, once our sin is atoned for and His righteousness is applied to us, when our spirit is resurrected in that moment and by His grace and mercy we are made whole, reconciled to Him as we were created to be, being made totally new creatures in that moment, and Him saying that of ALL that the Father gives Him, He will lose none of us. I also believe that if they go out from us they were never truly of us. I do not believe that being born again is anymore reversible anymore than being born is. We can die yes, but what does His word say? Does it say we can be lost after salvation? I know the Hebrew scripture about those who have tasted and then turned away, but I do not at all see that it says that they KNEW our King in truth and turned away at all. I don't believe it's specific enough to be sure that's what it means, anyway we don't build doctrine from 1 verse.

Ahhh, just my thoughts and where I'm at anyway.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you wish to hold to OSAS then do it but I see a number of verses that lead me to the opposite view. To me the question becomes, if God is love and He is then He would not force anyone to be with Him that did not want to be. Yes we are told the no one can snatch them from Gods' hand and I believe that but I also believe that a person can walk away. If that were not possible then way the warnings about apostasy or turning back? Remember you cannot fall away from somewhere that you have not been.

the question I have is what could God possibly do to make his children no longer want to be saved?

Hod does God fail to prove trustworthy that a person loses faith in Gods ability to save them

 

[walknlight]

13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].

14 The Spirit is the [e]guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+1&version=AMP
Done deal

Just because WE SEE people, in "opinion" , "walk away" (or what ever label)

Does NOT mean Our Lord is through with them, I.E. Israel
Only the LORD knows who comming and who's not, He chose before the foundation of the world

Hence:
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

After one is "sealed" , I beleive it becomes a matter of "crowns and rewards......"

"What did you do with what YOU were given(BY THE LORD) while you occupied?"

God bless!

 

[Gideon300]

I learned recently that though I thought I was saved. I as 9 year old child in 1997 allegedly accepted Jesus into my heart. I still have my childhood bible where the acceptance was documented by my mother. I really believe I wasn’t saved till last year though. So I wonder ,Could it have been possible for me as child to be so obedient or fearful of my parents wishes That I may have said the words of acceptance to just make them happy and satisfied but had no clue at that point what I was accepting? Then perhaps I made an agreement that well that’s all there is to it, and moved on with life largely separated from God?
Had I have been saved at that point, I never would have justified my actions, I would have thought holy spirt would have convicted me of my sins till I repented. Back then, I would have told you I was a Christian but my walk was not of a Christian life clear up into my 30s . At best I was living a very lethargic Christian life not of one alive and growing. I was walking around claiming I was a Christian if asked but my faith was effectively dead as I look back on it. I was living as a practical atheist or maybe a deist only praying for only what I wanted to hear. I never experienced Holy Spirit till recently at 32. What should I make of this and how can I ensure I don’t make the same mistake with my own son when it comes time for him to accept Jesus in his heart? I’m assuming this is a generational sin passed down and I want it to end with me.

Also I ran across a John piper podcast that tells his take on the once saved allways saved thing.
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/can-a-born-again-christian-lose-salvation

Saying a few words, especially with no understanding, will not save you. (Matthew 13:19) I went out the front at a Billy Graham crusade. I was 16. I filled in a decision card and prayed the prayer. Nothing stuck. I was really born again about 5 years later. I knew something had happened and that I was different. 50 years later, I recall almost nothing about the Billy Graham crusade. I remember clearly the time I was born again. It is still the greatest day of my life.

 

[Anthony55]

I understand this. I shared this view for a time as I grew, (and please understand I do not mean this arrogantly, or trying to imply I'm "further along than you", or anything at all like that) I'm not trying to "teach you" only share the fact that I do truly understand exactly where you're coming from because I reasoned it out that way too. (in fact I'm sure I have old comments on here saying this exact thing) Like, if I use my "free will" to choose Him do I then loose my "free will" the second I'm saved? Could I then, in theory of course, not choose to turn from him after being saved? Honestly that made no sense to me at all, even though we are clearly taught that we are going to be slaves of sin or slaves of Christ, right? The way I now look at it is honestly a combination of the two views, I know imagine the truth may lay somewhere in-between, but ultimately I believe 100% that once we are born again, once our sin is atoned for and His righteousness is applied to us, when our spirit is resurrected in that moment and by His grace and mercy we are made whole, reconciled to Him as we were created to be, being made totally new creatures in that moment, and Him saying that of ALL that the Father gives Him, He will lose none of us. I also believe that if they go out from us they were never truly of us. I do not believe that being born again is anymore reversible anymore than being born is. We can die yes, but what does His word say? Does it say we can be lost after salvation? I know the Hebrew scripture about those who have tasted and then turned away, but I do not at all see that it says that they KNEW our King in truth and turned away at all. I don't believe it's specific enough to be sure that's what it means, anyway we don't build doctrine from 1 verse.

Ahhh, just my thoughts and where I'm at anyway.

OSAS, mantra of Arminian evangelicalism. without the recognition of the Father's election of a specific people, Christ's death in their behalf, and the Spirit's sealing of that same specific people, there is no reason to believe in "eternal security."
In other words, synergists have no consistent reason to believe in salvific assurance.
This issue then is: is salvation the work of God's kingly freedom (monergism) or is it a cooperative effort subject to failure (synergism) ?
If it is solely God's work, to His own glory, the God will not fail to accomplish all His holy will (Psalms 135:6, Daniel 4:34-35, Eph. 1:10-11).
Jesus said, "All that the Father has given Me will come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of the One who sent me. And this is the will of the One who sent me: that all He has given me. Me, I lose none of it, but raise up on the last day. (Note: Jesus is talking specifically of salvation).
The question that must be answered is this: Can Jesus fail to do the will of the Father? He can not (John 8:29) Hence, Jesus must be able to be a perfect Savior of the elect. He must possess the capacity to fulfill the Father's will for Him.
Jesus repeat's this in John 10:27-29. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow Me, and I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My, Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch the from the Father's hand.
Jesus's power to save, seen in Hi perfection as Intercessor, is laid out in Romans 8:33-34 " Who will bring a charge against the elect of God ? God is the one who justifies. Who is the condemning? Christ Jesus, the One who died, rather was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who is interceding for us.

Gods Blessings

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you wish to hold to OSAS then do it but I see a number of verses that lead me to the opposite view.[/ QUOTE]
Then you simply misunderstand the verses that have led you astray. OSAS is clearly communicated by Jesus in John 10:28. He GIVES the gift of eternal life and the recipients SHALL NEVER PERISH. It could not be more simple or clear than that.

So whatever verses you have cannot refute or contradict Jesus' own words. That would be absurd.

otoh, there are NO clearly stated verses that unambiguously teach that salvation can be lost. If that were true, then EVERY warning verse would include that result. But none do.

To me the question becomes, if God is love and He is then He would not force anyone to be with Him that did not want to be. Yes we are told the no one can snatch them from Gods' hand and I believe that but I also believe that a person can walk away.

The verse says "no one". Meaning, "no person". Are you a "person"? If so, then EVEN YOU cannot remove yourself from His hand.

If that were not possible then way the warnings about apostasy or turning back? Remember you cannot fall away from somewhere that you have not been.

The warnings are to show that there are dire consequences for those who do apostatize. It's called "painful discipline". Heb 12:11.

Why don't you think God the Father wouldn't discipline His children? And it can be painful. It can even lead to physical death.

That certainly got the attention of the congregation where Ananias and his wife attended, in Acts 5.

 

[Ogom]

OSAS, mantra of Arminian evangelicalism. without the recognition of the Father's election of a specific people, Christ's death in their behalf, and the Spirit's sealing of that same specific people, there is no reason to believe in "eternal security."
In other words, synergists have no consistent reason to believe in salvific assurance.
This issue then is: is salvation the work of God's kingly freedom (monergism) or is it a cooperative effort subject to failure (synergism) ?
If it is solely God's work, to His own glory, the God will not fail to accomplish all His holy will (Psalms 135:6, Daniel 4:34-35, Eph. 1:10-11).
Jesus said, "All that the Father has given Me will come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of the One who sent me. And this is the will of the One who sent me: that all He has given me. Me, I lose none of it, but raise up on the last day. (Note: Jesus is talking specifically of salvation).
The question that must be answered is this: Can Jesus fail to do the will of the Father? He can not (John 8:29) Hence, Jesus must be able to be a perfect Savior of the elect. He must possess the capacity to fulfill the Father's will for Him.
Jesus repeat's this in John 10:27-29. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow Me, and I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My, Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch the from the Father's hand.
Jesus's power to save, seen in Hi perfection as Intercessor, is laid out in Romans 8:33-34 " Who will bring a charge against the elect of God ? God is the one who justifies. Who is the condemning? Christ Jesus, the One who died, rather was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who is interceding for us.

Gods Blessings

eventually it will be good and necessary (for anyone) to leave the complicated words and doctrines behind, and seek truth ----- from God ----- Spirit.

 

[Ogom]

If you wish to hold to OSAS then do it but I see a number of verses that lead me to the opposite view. To me the question becomes, if God is love and He is then He would not force anyone to be with Him that did not want to be. Yes we are told the no one can snatch them from Gods' hand and I believe that but I also believe that a person can walk away. If that were not possible then way the warnings about apostasy or turning back? Remember you cannot fall away from somewhere that you have not been.

Christ came to bring WhOlEnEss... to heal the mind and body so that soul (spirit) can shine forth. WhOlEnEss will not be black or white, or this doctrine or that one -- but a sincere seeking of truth -- actual truth -- from God and Christ and in ourselves (------- 1 Cor. 3:16 -------).

 

[Anthony55]

eventually it will be good and necessary (for anyone) to leave the complicated words and doctrines behind, and seek truth ----- from God ----- Spirit.

Oh, My Bad. I thought the topic was Once save Always Saved.

 

[Justified]

the question I have is what could God possibly do to make his children no longer want to be saved?

Hod does God fail to prove trustworthy that a person loses faith in Gods ability to save them

How can you miss the point that it is not God that has moved away it is the people. They have turned back to the world and thus have turned away from God. God because He is love will let man make their own choice to leave even as it breaks His heart.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How can you miss the point that it is not God that has moved away it is the people. They have turned back to the world and thus have turned away from God. God because He is love will let man make their own choice to leave even as it breaks His heart.

How can you miss the point on the fact we stop having faith in people who ;eg us down. WHo prove to be untrustworthy.

One does nt just lose faith in christ.

What you have is people who BELIEVE, but they have no faith. Even demons believe.

Either way. John said they were never of us.. NEVEFR means never.

 

[Icedaisey]

I agree that the parable shows God's love

Still does not change the rather salient FACT that an already saved person is not referred to as "lost" or "dead"

All you have to do to prove your "salient fact" is prove it with scripture. That is, prove unrepentant lost fallen sinners are in the Father's grace and have an inheritance from the Father.
Can you do that?

 

[Icedaisey]

I wonder where they walk to these people who "walk away from God" do they make their bed in the depths of the ocean ? behold God is there, do they take the wings of a dove and fly to the far side of the mountain? behold God is there and His right hand will hold them fast.

Negative thoughts and doubts come to us all [where from?] if you don't dismiss them you are paying heed to a doctrine of devils.

Are those people who were in Christ unsealed by the Holy Spirit if they backslide?

 

[Icedaisey]

Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and,
"A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
2 Peter 2:22

What a perfect reference to the plight of the Prodigal son.
Who sought to eat with the pigs for want of an ability to feed himself. But all of 2 Peter 2 is necessary to obtain the salient facts in it's teaching.

2 Peter 2

Only those who are redeemed in Christ in the first place are able to backslide into the ways of the world.
However, because of Jesus and the promise, no one will take us from his hand, of those the Father gives him he will lose none, to prove the backsliding Christian loses their Salvation, besides calling the Gospel message false, one would have to show that scripture that tells us God will remove his seal from us.

And then before going there we may wish to remember his parable about the single sheep gone astray from the flock.
The sheep wanders off, but the Shepherd seeks them out to return them home.
"Of all you have given me I will lose none."

No one! Can take us from the hand of he who knew the names of those in his eternal irrevocable gift of faith and Salvation through his grace, before the foundation of the world.

If we backslide, that is nothing our Omniscient Father did not foresee.
And still, our names were written in his Book of Life before the world was created. Because he, who created us, knows our names.

Who knows more about those salient facts? Eternal Omniscient God with his Book of Eternal Life?

Or those who insist Jesus died to guarantee an Oxymoron? "Eternal conditional revocable" salvation.

 

[Justified]

I understand this. I shared this view for a time as I grew, (and please understand I do not mean this arrogantly, or trying to imply I'm "further along than you", or anything at all like that) I'm not trying to "teach you" only share the fact that I do truly understand exactly where you're coming from because I reasoned it out that way too. (in fact I'm sure I have old comments on here saying this exact thing) Like, if I use my "free will" to choose Him do I then loose my "free will" the second I'm saved? Could I then, in theory of course, not choose to turn from him after being saved? Honestly that made no sense to me at all, even though we are clearly taught that we are going to be slaves of sin or slaves of Christ, right? The way I now look at it is honestly a combination of the two views, I know imagine the truth may lay somewhere in-between, but ultimately I believe 100% that once we are born again, once our sin is atoned for and His righteousness is applied to us, when our spirit is resurrected in that moment and by His grace and mercy we are made whole, reconciled to Him as we were created to be, being made totally new creatures in that moment, and Him saying that of ALL that the Father gives Him, He will lose none of us. I also believe that if they go out from us they were never truly of us. I do not believe that being born again is anymore reversible anymore than being born is. We can die yes, but what does His word say? Does it say we can be lost after salvation? I know the Hebrew scripture about those who have tasted and then turned away, but I do not at all see that it says that they KNEW our King in truth and turned away at all. I don't believe it's specific enough to be sure that's what it means, anyway we don't build doctrine from 1 verse.

Ahhh, just my thoughts and where I'm at anyway.

You are very cordial so I do not take any offense at your words. While I can understand your thought process I have to disagree. I have looked at a number of comments on this matter and what I find is a great deal of confusion and in some case discord. From what I understand of God, as limited as that is, I see Him as one that exhibits love for His creation. The one thing that true love cannot be is forced. Since we do have a God given free will which allows us to choose or reject Him for salvation and since I have found nothing in that says that free will is taken away after we are saved I in all honesty can not see how or why God would make someone stay that did not want to stay.
For those that hold that those that leave were never really saved in the first place my question is what are you basing that on? If you are going to use 1Jn 2:19 my only comment is that I have heard and read a number of views on this verse. The text just does not give enough clear information re the faith of those that left. Did they have faith and loose it, did they try to integrate false doctrine into their faith or did they never really believe. We do not know.
What I do know for sure is that someone cannot fall away from somewhere they have not been. As always I stand to be corrected but until then I will stand where I have been, people can and some do repudiate their faith.