The truth about Muhammad "Feedback appreciated"

[Katia]

Islam denies the crucifixion.
That is like a history revisionist denying the World Wars, moon landing or the sinking of the Titanic.

There were various Authors that did not directly contribute to the NT. Perhaps early Muslims read the work of the wrong Author. Remember, a lot of this was happening before the Black Plague and Dark Ages. Much was lost. For me lots of what the Monks of the Catholic church carried forward is debatable. Look at the work of Martin Luther and the carnage that followed after him. I believe that the KJV did a lot to order the Christian Church after. It was fairly recently that a Catholic Pope told Catholics to read their Bibles.

The Crucifixion happened very early, and the founding of Islam would not happen until around the 7th century. And, of course Islam split into Sunni and Shia branches, and finding out about that did a lot to undermine the credibility of Islam for me. Even Sunni Islam has 5 branches. I wish people could just get along.

 

[Katia]

Hello Katia, question for you, if the Lord Jesus did not need to die on the Cross to 1. atone for our sins and 2. to satisfy His Father's wrath, so that we could be reconciled to Him, then what was the purpose of the Incarnation and the Cross

Also, if that horrible death that He suffered on the Cross wasn't absolutely necessary for our salvation, wouldn't that make His Father a monster (instead His/our Abba/loving Father)

I have a couple of other questions that I'd like to ask you (about a couple of other things that you mentioned in your last post), but this is enough for now

Thanks!

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - here is some Scripture for you to consider as well.

Romans 5​

8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.​

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.​

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.​

​

2 Corinthians 5​

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

​

Hebrews 9​

22 According to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.​

​

Hebrews 10​

4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.​

​

I think I wrote about this already. I think the Jews killed Jesus, as they did many Prophets. I'm not anti Semitic. It is a bit late for that.

 

[kaylagrl]

Jesus is the Son of God. I question that he died for our sins.

Then why did He come? No need for Him, we'd just continue sacrificing animals.

 

[kaylagrl]

I think I wrote about this already. I think the Jews killed Jesus, as they did many Prophets. I'm not anti Semitic. It is a bit late for that.

Jewish leaders of the time, yes, they had a part. But so did you and I. He died for us.

 

[Deuteronomy]

What I offer are simply my opinions. I do not intend to walk into someone's church and cast shade on what they say. I say that the Jews killed Jesus, and they did that to many of the prophets. Some argue that the Romans killed him. I was in Israel in 2001 and seeing what I saw there did nothing to resolve my confusion.

Hello again Katia, it's clear from the Bible (and from numbers of other, non-Biblical sources from the 1st Century) that the Romans were the ones who crucified Jesus (they had to do it, because the Romans, who were occupying Jerusalem at that time, did not give the Jews the right to put someone to death).

That said, much (most?) of the Jewish leadership of the day, as well many of their followers, made it abundantly clear to their Roman rulers that they wanted Jesus to die (so yes, they too were compliant in His death, even though they were not the ones who sent Him to the Cross or who carried out His execution).

It is my opinion that what became the Catholics are the ones who started the "Death to cover our sins" train of thought. Please remember that this is just my opinion and nothing more. I do not claim to be a scholar.

Being a scholar is hardly a requirement for posting on a forum like this one, but studying/researching what scholars have to say about a subject before posting is always a great idea

That said, the Roman Catholic Church actually began in 1054 AD (at the Great Schism of the Eastern and Western branches of the church). Before that it was just "the church". So, MUCH had already been written, by the Apostles, and by the Early Church Fathers after them, long before the behemoth, that we know as the Roman Catholic Church of today, had come into existence.

Biblically, the "death to cover our sins" thing (also known as, "the scarlet thread of redemption", by some), goes all the way back to Genesis 3, when God 1st made provision for our progenitors' sin, by sacrificing an animal and then clothing them with its hide. Also, as I'm sure that you are already aware, the forgiveness of sins continued to require an animal to be sacrificed (see Genesis 4 and the rest of the OT), and its blood to be sprinkled on the altar, whenever a sin was committed (in OT times in Israel) to atone for that sin.

So, as you can see, this, "death to cover our sins", business hardly began with the Roman Catholic Church! (see again the verses/passages that I posited at the end of one of my posts, post #58, as such things were first said by the Lord and/or by the Apostles in the Bible, and only later repeated by the RCC and the rest of the Christian church).

The various denominations outside the Catholic Church are replete with differing ideas and it is difficult to respect them. None of them accept me and I have spoken to Pastors who have asked me not to return because their congregations would be too alarmed. Their are some ELCA Lutherans...

Within the pale of Christian orthodoxy, the church that I am most distant/different from (theologically/soteriologically speaking) is the Roman Catholic Church, yet I stand in perfect lockstep with them in at least 90% of what they believe/teach. This is why I'm able to both use and recommend their principle catechism, the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church), as an excellent/basic Christian theology or primer (especially if someone is interested in knowing what lies at the very center of the historic/orthodox Christian faith .. for the most part anyway ).

Granted, the differences with the RCC, particularly the big ones (which are primarily soteriological), cannot be harmonized at this time, but again, the differences, both big and small combined, only make up about 10% of the Christian faith.

Finally, I don't know what was behind a pastor asking you to leave his church and not return, but I am sorry that happened to you. The interesting thing is, what you said above that you would never do, "walk into someone's church and cast shade on what they say", is what is typically behind someone being asked to leave a church (well, that and coming under church discipline because of a sin, but then refusing, in the end, to repent of it).

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

Finally (@Katia), I feel like I would be remiss if I did not direct your attention back to the very heart of Christianity, the Incarnation and the Cross, and the "Gospel" (which is most concisely stated in the Bible as, "Jesus Christ, and Him crucified" .. 1 Corinthians 2:2). I suppose I should also point out the necessity of understanding what it means to be "saved by grace, through faith, ~APART~ from works" .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.

If you do not understand why the Incarnation and the Cross were ~ABSOLUTELY~ necessary for our salvation, and/or what the Gospel, "Jesus Christ, and Him crucified", actually means, then you do not/cannot understand what the Christian faith is all about.

So, if you would like to discuss either of those things (the Incarnation and the Cross, or the Gospel .. or both) further, please don't hesitate to let me/us know as we will be happy to do so

God bless you!

~Deut

 

[soberxp]

Islam denies the crucifixion.
That is like a history revisionist denying the World Wars, moon landing or the sinking of the Titanic.

ignorance

 

[soberxp]

Surah 4 157.
And because they said, "we have indeed killed mexhah ersa, the son of melyan, the messenger of Allah." They didn't kill him or crucify him, but they didn't understand the truth. Those who argue for Ursa are really confused about his being killed. They knew nothing about it, but according to conjecture. They didn't actually kill him.

Surah 4 158.
Otherwise, Allah has brought him up to himself. Allah is omnipotent and wise.


Who do we think we are? Are we Israel? No, we are foreigners.
You can't think of yourself as Israel or Jew, but foreigners

 

[soberxp]

The Bible can be understood by various sects as various contradictory ideas.
People are arguing about it，So is the Koran.
The translation of the Koran into English with prejudice will lead to people's misunderstanding.
Moreover, the Koran, which was misunderstood by Muslims, then Christians proudly regard themselves as Israelis。
This is a complete mistake. We need to forgive others and your so-called pagans, because this is God's intention.

 

[Katia]

Surah 4 157.
And because they said, "we have indeed killed mexhah ersa, the son of melyan, the messenger of Allah." They didn't kill him or crucify him, but they didn't understand the truth. Those who argue for Ursa are really confused about his being killed. They knew nothing about it, but according to conjecture. They didn't actually kill him.

Surah 4 158.
Otherwise, Allah has brought him up to himself. Allah is omnipotent and wise.


Who do we think we are? Are we Israel? No, we are foreigners.
You can't think of yourself as Israel or Jew, but foreigners

It is confusing to those outside the Arab world that many of them feel that Allah SWT is so great that he can not have a body, so can not have a Son. I don't validate that sentiment but that is what they think, and it is why they do not believe in the crucifiction. I don't see a punitive and vindictive God, so I wonder how he will treat Islamics when he returns? It seems that in seven centuries since Jesus Christ, much was lost. I wish that I knew more about the history of that time.

 

[defendthetruth1]

wow, i will like to learn more to defend the Truth which is the word of God, the bible,islam are growing here in africa and we need a support to spread the God news of our lord jesus christ here in Ghana west africa, moslem is a false religion indeed and we need more tips from the Quran to depend the truth of the word of God

 

[Katia]

wow, i will like to learn more to defend the Truth which is the word of God, the bible,islam are growing here in africa and we need a support to spread the God news of our lord jesus christ here in Ghana west africa, moslem is a false religion indeed and we need more tips from the Quran to depend the truth of the word of God

My American experience with Islam was very mild by comparison. Of course you know the penalty for a Muslim who disavows Islam, so I won't. I am sorry for what is happening to you.

 

[Roar]

Up front: I am a Christian Zionist!

I am not Jewish but the Jews Did Not Kill Yeshua Hamashiach, Jesus Christ, that is false teaching. Yeshua laid down His life as no power on earth had the ability to take it by force. Jesus of His own free will layed down His life as a sin offering far all mankinds' sins so that all who believe in Him and accept His "Blood Sacrife" for their sins can have eternal life. If did not we would all still be bound for damnation and hell. It was Jesus' Love for "All of US" that kept Him on that cross not nails, Roman soliders, Jewish High Priests, or the Jewish People. Remember well the The Epistle to the Romans written by Paul the Apostle particularly his words in Chapter11 that speak to Christians as to their views about Jews!

Remember Jesus said;

Matthew 15:22-28
New King James Version


22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
23 But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

 

[Roar]

I have a fairly good grasp of the "fundamental pillars" and teachings of Islam as taught by Muhammad according to the official Koran from Saudi Arabia the offical birth place of Islam. There is of course the various Hadiths. Of course, Muhammad was illiterate so everything was written down by others, thus various writters are given different veracity in their Hadith editions as well as differnt recogntions given to Koran editions.

 

[Roar]

wow, i will like to learn more to defend the Truth which is the word of God, the bible,islam are growing here in africa and we need a support to spread the God news of our lord jesus christ here in Ghana west africa, moslem is a false religion indeed and we need more tips from the Quran to depend the truth of the word of God

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
New King James Version


The Great Apostasy
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition,


There are many even those that call themselves "Christians" that seek alliances with Islam despite theirgoals;

THE CHARTER OF ALLAH: THE PLATFORM OF THE ISLAMIC RESISTANCE MOVEMENT (HAMAS) read it all here > https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm

 

[Katia]

Probably due to my disgust with the reaction of those of my denomination post 9/11, I left the church and became Muslim for almost a decade. So, what I know about Muhammad PBUH and Islam in general was taught to me by Muslim scholars including their bias. I find that Christians are disgustingly biased about things Islamic. It is sad that they think they know, having been taught by uninformed Pastors.

The most respected interpretation of the Qur'an was done by Yusuf Ali. The original Qur'an was written in Classical Arabic that is not spoken nor can it be read except by those who work very hard. I do not have respect for the Fatwas. The Hadiths are Interpretations of the words of Muhammad PBUH that are not part of the Qur'an and include the SUNNA.

Look up Yusuf Ali and you will find that instructive. The Qur'an was complete in different sets of parchment at the time the Prophet died. Yusuf Ali lived around the turn of the 19th-20th Centuries. I deliberately left the information brief so that who really want to know can look it up on Wiki and in Libraries. I do not know how people who lie about Islam expect to stand before God.

 

[kaylagrl]

Probably due to my disgust with the reaction of those of my denomination post 9/11, I left the church and became Muslim for almost a decade. So, what I know about Muhammad PBUH and Islam in general was taught to me by Muslim scholars including their bias. I find that Christians are disgustingly biased about things Islamic. It is sad that they think they know, having been taught by uninformed Pastors.

I've not learned anything from my pastor about Muhammad, all you have to do is look at history. Why you would say " peace be on him" when he was anything but a man of peace is beyond me.

the most respected interpretation of the Qur'an was done by Yusuf Ali. The original Qur'an was written in Classical Arabic that is not spoken nor can it be read except by those who work very hard. I do not have respect for the Fatwas. The Hadiths are Interpretations of the words of Muhammad PBUH that are not part of the Qur'an and include the SUNNA.

How do feel about how Muhammad felt about Jews and Christians?

do not know how people who lie about Islam expect to stand before God.

I think you'd do better worried about Muslims who stand before God and try to explain why they didn't believe what Jesus said and put a false prophet in His place.

 

[Roar]

Probably due to my disgust with the reaction of those of my denomination post 9/11, I left the church and became Muslim for almost a decade. So, what I know about Muhammad PBUH and Islam in general was taught to me by Muslim scholars including their bias. I find that Christians are disgustingly biased about things Islamic. It is sad that they think they know, having been taught by uninformed Pastors.

The most respected interpretation of the Qur'an was done by Yusuf Ali. The original Qur'an was written in Classical Arabic that is not spoken nor can it be read except by those who work very hard. I do not have respect for the Fatwas. The Hadiths are Interpretations of the words of Muhammad PBUH that are not part of the Qur'an and include the SUNNA.

Look up Yusuf Ali and you will find that instructive. The Qur'an was complete in different sets of parchment at the time the Prophet died. Yusuf Ali lived around the turn of the 19th-20th Centuries. I deliberately left the information brief so that who really want to know can look it up on Wiki and in Libraries. I do not know how people who lie about Islam expect to stand before God.

The majority of "Christians" have little understanding of the True Islamic Pillars or True teachings of Muhammad. They have only what they have been told by Muslims practicing Kitman and Taqiyya in order as a deception as to the true nature of Islam to " protect Islam" from non-believers.

Kitman comes from the Arabic word katama and means “to hide” or “to conceal”. There are eight different hadiths which, in slightly different versions, attribute the following saying to the prophet Muhammed: http://www.honestthinking.org/en/pub/HT.2005.07.JTA.EN.Kitman.htm

Taqiyya, or not showing their faith openly by means of pretense, dissimulation, or concealment, is a special type of LYING which is taught and used by Shi'a Muslims, cf. Sunni Muslims and Taqiyya. "Taqiyya" (or taqiyyah) is related to the terms "taqwa'" and "taqi'" - all have the root meaning of "guarding" something, in this case, the Islamic faith. https://www.answering-islam.org/Index/T/taqiyya.html

 

[Roar]

The following hadith which forms a part of these Sahih Muslim hadiths has been quoted many times, and it became a part of the charter of Hamas.[94]

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Boxthorn tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews. (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).Sahih Muslim, 41:6985, see also Sahih Muslim, 41:6981, Sahih Muslim, 41:6982, Sahih Muslim, 41:6983, Sahih Muslim, 41:6984, Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:56:791,(Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:177)​

​

The above is from Islam's own teachings and written books. Do your own reasearch.​

 

[Roar]

Something every Christian should understand about Islam is "abrogation"! Abrogation in the Qur'an refers to the phenomenon of a later verse changing or altering a ruling established by a verse revealed earlier, either in whole or in part. Unlike in the Bible where each verse supports every other verse or you have the wrong interpretation as as my favorite theology teacher used to say. In the Koran there is the phenomenon of a later verse changing or altering a ruling established by a verse revealed earlier because the Islamic god Allah all through the Koran keeps changing his mind unlike the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob as the Bible states changes not. It seems Allah can not make up his mind in the Koran if one bothers to read it as the the later verses abregate or do away with earlier verses given by Allah.