Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Mem]

For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every transgression and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? -Hebrews 2:2-3a

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yeah, I always find it amazing, Grandpa, when people say that Jesus paid for everyone's sins, they do not recognize or accept by that, everyone without exception must be saved. What they miss, and what proves the major flaw in their thinking, is, if all sins were paid, then the sin of not believing was paid too.

Why can't you provide ANY verse that says we are saved by His death then?

Thereby, making everyone saved. But, the Bible is abundantly clear, that everyone is not saved. However, for the Elect, it is true, and by which are we saved with the sin of not believing graciously removed. From that, true faith in Christ is given as a gift to them alone.
Hope that makes sense.

Your analysis is quite flawed. I've shown the verses that refute your ideas.

Jesus Christ died for everyone so that whosoever believes will be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

[2Co 5:14 KJV]
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

[2Co 5:15 KJV] 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[1Pe 2:24 KJV]
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Those work?

Christ's work paid the sin debt. And FAITH in Christ's work justifies those who believe. Rom 5:1 says so. Do you believe Rom 5:1?

Or not?

 

[rogerg]

Christ's work paid the sin debt. And FAITH in Christ's work justifies those who believe. Rom 5:1 says so. Do you believe Rom 5:1?

Or not?

That is Christ's faith described in Rom 5:1 , not ours. We cannot justify ourselves. Faith is a work, and if we believe it our work, then we remain under law and therefore judgement. Faith in Christ is a gift.

Here's the verse

[Rom 5:1 KJV] 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

"through our Lord Jesus Christ": Christ's faithfulness

[Rev 2:13 KJV] 13
I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.



Explain how you think a Savior saves.

 

[Icedaisey]

Your question isn't even legit. Entering the kingdom isn't about "the call". Maybe you should adopt the Berean study method as I have.

You would then understand what "calling" is all about.

Only if there were a verse that supports your claim can I accept what you claim. Otherwise, your claims are opinions, assumptions, or presumptions.

Just the facts ma'am. No hyperbole or hyper-anything here.

If you can't provide Scripture that says what you claim, there is no reason I can think of for accepting your claims.

The sad part there is that more than one person likes your post where you demonstrate you are unaware of John 6.

 

[Icedaisey]

I completely agree.


You may stop with your "full stop". What that would mean is that salvation is by the death of Christ. So, show me ANY verse that actually says that. But save your time. There are NO such verses. What you claim is only your opinion.

Instead, there are verses that tell us clearly the basis for which we are saved, and it isn't Christ's death.

He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Rom 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

What do the red words mean? What do the blue words mean?

Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Do you see the connection between these 2 verses that occur together? Jesus was resurrected for our justification AND we are justified THROUGH faith. Not His death.

You're probably thinking of Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

However, v.1 tells us that our faith is IN His blood. So it isn't on the basis of His death, but OUR faith in His death on our behalf.

v.10 - For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

What do the red words mean? What do the blue words mean?


You're going to have to prove that with Scripture.


Go ahead and show me the verse.


Your claim is empty. You have no evidence that supports your claim. You just don't want to accept the verses that I have quoted.


Nice try. Now, why don't you address "those verses" and show me what they really mean then. If you can.

It's just so easy to make a claim. But it's quite another thing to prove a claim.

Just so you know moving forward with your disrespect of Christians on this site, saying "nice try", besides being a tell when multiple "different" people use that same insult, makes the speaker appear unintelligent on top of being a bully.

When you're laboring to insult someone for posting, they didn't try anything. They accomplished posting their thoughts in this forum.

How about trying to show you know what living in grace is?

 

[Icedaisey]

[2Co 5:14 KJV]
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

[2Co 5:15 KJV] 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[1Pe 2:24 KJV]
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Those work?

"What that would mean is that salvation is by the death of Christ. " FG2

Do you see?

 

[rogerg]

Do you see?

Sorry, don't quite follow?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Faith is a work,

nope.

Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Icedaisey]

Scripture HAS TO agree with scripture.

This is EXTREMELY simple.

If the Lord tasted death for every single person, then every single person is saved. Period. Full stop.

Its fine for you to try and believe that. But it contradicts scripture.



A MUCH better understanding of these scriptures is that the Lord Jesus is the Saviour of HIS PEOPLE. All of His People in the World from the beginning of time to the end of time.


None of those verses you posted refute ANYTHING. All those verses have done is confuse you. Even more than you already were.

Jesus death to bring Salvation to the world is the foundation of the New Covenant. Blood sealed that Covenant.Christ and his blood on the cross, taking the sins of the world upon himself there. For as it is written cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree.
Jesus, that unblemished lamb, was the last sin sacrifice.
He took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross.

4. Jesus’ Death for Salvation

 

[Icedaisey]

Sorry, don't quite follow?

What does it say to you, that someone doesn't know Christ's death insured the Salvation covenant?
The basic foundation of our faith.

 

[rogerg]

Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

The "it" in V3 accounted to HIM was faith . In other words, faith was given to him. Rom 4:9 substantiates this:

[Rom 4:9 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"

It is of Christ's faith - not a faith of ourselves, because it could not be a righteous faith as v5 states - faith given to us through/by Christ. He is the Savior

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Icedaisey]

That is Christ's faith described in Rom 5:1 , not ours. We cannot justify ourselves. Faith is a work, and if we believe it our work, then we remain under law and therefore judgement. Faith in Christ is a gift.

Here's the verse

[Rom 5:1 KJV] 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

"through our Lord Jesus Christ": Christ's faithfulness

[Rev 2:13 KJV] 13
I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.



Explain how you think a Savior saves.

"faith is a work."


Then they asked Him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent." John 6:28-29

 

[rogerg]

What does it say to you, that someone doesn't know Christ's death insured the Salvation covenant?
The basic foundation of our faith.

Oh boy, where should I start? To me, it means the entire foundation of his spiritual understanding is wrong and corrupt.
And what happens when someone builds on a corrupted foundation? It eventually collapses upon itself

 

[Icedaisey]

Oh boy, where should I start? To me, it means the entire foundation of his spiritual understanding is wrong and corrupt.
And what happens when someone builds on a corrupted foundation? It eventually collapses upon itself

Agreed.
Like building a house on shifting sand.

The tragedy though is when such one's seek to lead others to erect their homes on that same foundation right along with them. A sinkhole waiting to swallow souls.

 

[rogerg]

Like building a house on shifting sand.

The tragedy though is when such one's seek to lead others to erect their homes on that same foundation right along with them. A sinkhole waiting to swallow souls.

Yes, and it's sad to see. And what does the Bible say about the blind leading the blind?

 

[FreeGrace2]

That is Christ's faith described in Rom 5:1 , not ours. We cannot justify ourselves.

You are obviously very confused and do not understand (or even know) Scripture on that subject.

Gen 15:6 - Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

That's "HE 9God) credited it to him (Abraham).

Faith is a work, and if we believe it our work, then we remain under law and therefore judgement.

Again, you simply are unfamiliar with Scripture.

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

The phrases "not from yourselves" and "not by works" proves that salvation is by grace through faith. However, the faith here is the same faith as in Gen 15:6.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

v.4 says in the clearest of words that that works create a debt (obligation). Faith is not a work. v.5 proves that trusting in God (faith) is credited as righteousness.

Faith in Christ is a gift.

Here's the verse
[Rom 5:1 KJV] 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

"through our Lord Jesus Christ": Christ's faithfulness

Your "reading" of this verse is quite off the mark.

Explain how you think a Savior saves.

Very easily. Jesus promises to give the free gift of eternal life to those who believe in Him for it.

How do you think THE Savior saves?

If you think His death is all that is needed to save people, then believing in Him has no place or no need.

In spite of the many many verses that directly tie believing in Christ to salvation.

There's a lot of the Bible that you need to re-think. Whoever taught you did not know the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The sad part there is that more than one person likes your post where you demonstrate you are unaware of John 6.

Oh really? How would you know since I haven't addressed that chapter? Do you fancy yourself as a psychic of some sort?

Why don't you ask me something about John 6 and see for yourself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just so you know moving forward with your disrespect of Christians on this site, saying "nice try",

Those who would think saying "nice try" is somehow disrespecting Christians have a very thin skin and are way too hypersensitive.

Grow a thicker skin, please.

When you're laboring to insult someone for posting, they didn't try anything.

I actually dare you to find ANY insult that I've leveled at anyone. Give post # so we all can see your 'evidence'.

They accomplished posting their thoughts in this forum.

Nice try. So what? What is accomplished by posting thoughts that are unbiblical?

How about trying to show you know what living in grace is?

I have already. I've been free of leveling any insults at those who have such a poor comprehension of Scripture.

 

[Gardenias]

Rms5:1 .......we have PEACE with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Why bc we have FAITH and are justified!


Simple understanding!