Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Where do you see that? John 12:40 says "he" hardens the heart, not that we harden the heart. The point is that it is hardened so
the Gospel cannot be perceived
To be clear, James 2:19 isn't about demons believing that God exists. Of course they do. He created them and they lived in heaven until the rebelled and joined Satan's rebellion.
2:19 is about monotheism, which was uniquely a Jewish belief; that God is One. But, the demons didn't take that on faith, but rather because they experienced it.
It's a real shame that so many pastors and Bible teaches use James 2:19 to make unbiblical comments about the "faith of demons" that doesn't save. Not even in the ballpark.
eternally-gratefull said:
The one who believes has eternal life
the one who does not believe is dead.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
The "hears" and "believes" are in the present tense. So is "has eternal life". So, those who hear and believe what they hear are called "believers", and all believers HAVE eternal life.
But don't believe me. Believe what else John said about eternal life:
1 John 5:13 -
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
John was very clear. Those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. And Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.
The one who believes has eternal life
the one who does not believe is dead.
And, that's where the problem lies. You are simply reading the Bible WRONGLY.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
The "hears" and "believes" are in the present tense. So is "has eternal life". So, those who hear and believe what they hear are called "believers", and all believers HAVE eternal life.
But don't believe me. Believe what else John said about eternal life:
1 John 5:13 -
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
John was very clear. Those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. And Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.
True.
Don't be misled. To be saved, one MUST believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 16:30,31
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Sure
John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
How do we get eternal life?
1. As moses lifted up the serpent, Jesus will be lifted up
2. In moses day. They had to look on the serpent to be saved. You only looked if you b Eli even, those who don not believe did not look and died
3. If you want to not die but have eternal life. You must believe
4. Whoever believed is not condemned. Whoever does not believe is condemned already
John 4:
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 butwhoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
The drink that springs up to eternal life. Which one can drink and never again thirst. You must ask for it. We ask because we believe, If we do not believe, we will not ask.
John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
What must one do to not come to judgment but have everlasting life? hear the word and believe
John 6:
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
So what do we do?
1. Labor for the food which endures to eternal life
2. Come to him, Believe in him
3. See and believe
4. Believe and eat
5. Eat and drink
Jesus explains what this all means
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
How do we eat? Drink? What do we see and believe?
The words of Christ,
Who gave him the words? The spirit
Who convicts and teaches us the gospel? The spirit
Oh and in case we had any question. Peter nails it on the head
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”
As you can see, 4 chapters. 4 different accounts, Yet the same message from Jesus himself.
Let's look at what the Bible says about that:
Ex 8:15 - But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
Ex 8:32 - But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
ok I am confused.
I said Jesus hardens our heart. And asked how
your respons is that it is always hard in our natural state,
now again, you are saying God hardens our heart.
Which puts us back at square one
Once again, I am talking about the word as a whole. We atre told many places we harden our heart. God hardens our heart. Can you tell me what that means?
again, I ask, Can you tell me what the word harden mans? It seems to me you want to deflect. Can you please answer the question.
is it maybe you do not have a greek source from which to look up the word? Otherwise. I can not find any reason why you will not answer the question.
Can that also be said of 'faith without works is dead,' as Jesus said, '...believe in the works that I do.' As I see it, unfaithfulness comes not from experiencing God's presence but disbelieving in the character by which His works are done. Isn't this misjudgment of God's character, essentially, the impetus of the demons' rebellion? Or was it rather a misjudgment of their own 'better judgment' perhaps?
Who said the faith of demons saves?
James 2 Prejudice and the Law of Love
Faith and Works Together...
James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.”[ac] Show me your faith without works and I will show you faith by[ad] my works. 19 You believe that God is one; well and good.[ae] Even the demons believe that—and tremble with fear.[af]
20 But would you like evidence,[ag] you empty fellow,[ah] that faith without works is useless?[ai] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was working together with his works and his faith was perfected by works. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Now Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness,”[aj] and he was called God’s friend.[ak]
And I ask you again, where are we told that we harden our heart?
This is what harden means:
- to cover with a thick skin, to harden by covering with a callus
- metaph.
- to make the heart dull
- to grow hard, callous, become dull, lose the power of understanding
"God hardens our heart. Can you tell me what that means?"
Yes, I can answer your question:
A heart of stone is what we're born with (a hardened heart). We are incapable of grasping and taking the Gospel to heart of ourselves; fleshy tables of the heart are that which we are given by the Spirit of the living God should He choose to save us
[2Co 3:3 KJV]
3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
The word harden In the ot Comes from the word Chazaq whihc means to be strong, to strengthen to harden. It is the same word used when God hardened pharoahs heart and pharaoh hardened his own heart.
The passage you quoted was speaking about what Isaiah said.
The passage quoted was where he was told to keep preaching the people so that seeing they may not see and hearing they may not hear
The more you reject the truth The more your true belief is strengthened, or hardend.
He hardens our hearts by keeping exposing his truth to us.. The more we reject. The easier it is to not believe, and the harder it is to believe.
It like you tell a lie. The more you tell that lie. The more you believe that lie is actually the truth
Or its like you know somethign is true but you deny it, the more you deny it, the easier it comes to deny it You get to the point no matter what you see or hear you will never believe it because your believe is strengtrhed (harden)
Romans 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
John 12: 36
The Unbelief of the People
When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. 37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
“Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”
Isaiah 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”
Isaiah's Commission from the Lord
8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.” 9 And he said, “Go, and say to this people:
“‘Keep on hearing,[c] but do not understand;
keep on seeing,[d] but do not perceive.’
10 Make the heart of this people dull,[e]
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?”
And he said:
“Until cities lie waste
without inhabitant,
and houses without people,
and the land is a desolate waste,
12 and the Lord removes people far away,
and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
13 And though a tenth remain in it,
it will be burned[f] again,
like a terebinth or an oak,
whose stump remains
when it is felled.”
The holy seed[g] is its stump.
Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
John 12: 36
The Unbelief of the People
When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. 37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
“Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”
Isaiah 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”
Isaiah's Commission from the Lord
8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.” 9 And he said, “Go, and say to this people:
“‘Keep on hearing,[c] but do not understand;
keep on seeing,[d] but do not perceive.’
10 Make the heart of this people dull,[e]
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?”
And he said:
“Until cities lie waste
without inhabitant,
and houses without people,
and the land is a desolate waste,
12 and the Lord removes people far away,
and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
13 And though a tenth remain in it,
it will be burned[f] again,
like a terebinth or an oak,
whose stump remains
when it is felled.”
The holy seed[g] is its stump.
so with strengthened muscles as with strengthened belief, there are those that say weak muscle is 'no muscle.'
Israel was Elect. Yet people could join Israel, such as Ruth and many others:
Esther 8:17
And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.
Despite being elect, there were many things one could do, to be cut off from this elect group of people known as Israel:
Exo_30:33 Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger, shall even be cut off from his people.
Exo_30:38 Whosoever shall make like unto that, to smell thereto, shall even be cut off from his people.
Exo_31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Lev_7:20 But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
Lev_7:21 Moreover the soul that shall touch any unclean thing, as the uncleanness of man, or any unclean beast, or any abominable unclean thing, and eat of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which pertain unto the LORD, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
Lev_7:25 For whosoever eateth the fat of the beast, of which men offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, even the soul that eateth it shall be cut off from his people.
Lev_7:27 Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
Do a search on this on eSword, a bible program and you will find countless of mentions of this.
My question is, if you can be cut off for doing this and that, is it really unconditional election? These things seem to be conditions. There was also the requirement of circumcision and many other such requirements.
Esther 8:17
And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.
Despite being elect, there were many things one could do, to be cut off from this elect group of people known as Israel:
Exo_30:33 Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger, shall even be cut off from his people.
Exo_30:38 Whosoever shall make like unto that, to smell thereto, shall even be cut off from his people.
Exo_31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Lev_7:20 But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
Lev_7:21 Moreover the soul that shall touch any unclean thing, as the uncleanness of man, or any unclean beast, or any abominable unclean thing, and eat of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which pertain unto the LORD, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
Lev_7:25 For whosoever eateth the fat of the beast, of which men offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, even the soul that eateth it shall be cut off from his people.
Lev_7:27 Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
Do a search on this on eSword, a bible program and you will find countless of mentions of this.
My question is, if you can be cut off for doing this and that, is it really unconditional election? These things seem to be conditions. There was also the requirement of circumcision and many other such requirements.
The point of the verse wasn't to tell them to keep preaching. It was a description of their spiritual state to edify those whom God does give spiritual eyes, ears and perception to.
the passage I quoted, John 12:40, was actually the fulfillment of Esaias prophecy. The word hardened in John 12:40 was written in Greek not Hebrew :
pōroō (Key)
Pronunciation
po-ro'-o
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
Apparently from poros (a kind of stone)
Greek Inflections of πωρόω [?]
mGNT
5x in 5 unique form(s) TR
5x in 5 unique form(s) LXX
1x in 1 unique form(s)
ἐπωρώθη — 1x
ἐπωρώθησαν — 1x
πεπώρωκεν — 1x
πεπωρωμένη — 1x
πεπωρωμένην — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 5:1025,816
KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G4456 in the following manner: harden (3x), blind (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- to cover with a thick skin, to harden by covering with a callus
- metaph.
- to make the heart dull
- to grow hard, callous, become dull, lose the power of understanding
πωρόω pōróō, po-ro'-o; apparently from πῶρος pōros (a kind of stone); to petrify, i.e. (figuratively) to indurate (render stupid or callous):—blind, harden.
why this word so important to you?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I think the point is
If you do not want to believe something, And someone keeps showing you and proving to you that it is true. The more you deny the truth, the more strengthened your unbelief comes
Phaoroah is a good example. God started small. And every time Pharoaw denied the truth, God added a harder truth which should have been harder to deny, But each time, Pharoahs unbelief grew stronger. So that even after his first born was killed. he still showed unbelief
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
You just do not get itThe point of the verse wasn't to tell them to keep preaching. It was a description of their spiritual state to edify those whom God does give spiritual eyes, ears and perception to.
the passage I quoted, John 12:40, was actually the fulfillment of Esaias prophecy. The word hardened in John 12:40 was written in Greek not Hebrew :
pōroō (Key)
Pronunciation
po-ro'-o
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
Apparently from poros (a kind of stone)
Greek Inflections of πωρόω [?]
mGNT
5x in 5 unique form(s) TR
5x in 5 unique form(s) LXX
1x in 1 unique form(s)
ἐπωρώθη — 1x
ἐπωρώθησαν — 1x
πεπώρωκεν — 1x
πεπωρωμένη — 1x
πεπωρωμένην — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 5:1025,816
KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G4456 in the following manner: harden (3x), blind (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
- to cover with a thick skin, to harden by covering with a callus
- metaph.
- to make the heart dull
- to grow hard, callous, become dull, lose the power of understanding
πωρόω pōróō, po-ro'-o; apparently from πῶρος pōros (a kind of stone); to petrify, i.e. (figuratively) to indurate (render stupid or callous):—blind, harden.
why this word so important to you?
The passage you quoted was fulfilment of what Isaiah said. In seeing they may not see and hearing they may not here
In the Hebrew, the word means to strengthen.
The more they heard the truth and the more they denied it, their heart became hardened or strengthen. To the point they would not believe the truth if it was right in front of them.
It was not because they were natural people./ A child of God can harden their heart to one of Gods truths, we see that in here as people of God believe different things, inspite of what the word says.
God hardened Pharaoh's heart
[Exo 10:20 KJV] 20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
FreeGrace2 said:
To be clear, James 2:19 isn't about demons believing that God exists. Of course they do. He created them and they lived in heaven until the rebelled and joined Satan's rebellion.
2:19 is about monotheism, which was uniquely a Jewish belief; that God is One. But, the demons didn't take that on faith, but rather because they experienced it.
It's a real shame that so many pastors and Bible teaches use James 2:19 to make unbiblical comments about the "faith of demons" that doesn't save. Not even in the ballpark.
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
Do you think the "works of My father" means being nice to others, keeping the law, etc, or the miracles that only God can do?
To be clear, James 2:19 isn't about demons believing that God exists. Of course they do. He created them and they lived in heaven until the rebelled and joined Satan's rebellion.
2:19 is about monotheism, which was uniquely a Jewish belief; that God is One. But, the demons didn't take that on faith, but rather because they experienced it.
It's a real shame that so many pastors and Bible teaches use James 2:19 to make unbiblical comments about the "faith of demons" that doesn't save. Not even in the ballpark.
Jesus told his audience to believe in His miracles. John 10-
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
Do you think the "works of My father" means being nice to others, keeping the law, etc, or the miracles that only God can do?
Probably a lot of things. Regardless of the underlying cause of unfaithfulness, the issue is the unfaithfulness, not the cause of it.
FreeGrace2 said:
To be clear, James 2:19 isn't about demons believing that God exists. Of course they do. He created them and they lived in heaven until the rebelled and joined Satan's rebellion.
2:19 is about monotheism, which was uniquely a Jewish belief; that God is One. But, the demons didn't take that on faith, but rather because they experienced it.
It's a real shame that so many pastors and Bible teaches use James 2:19 to make unbiblical comments about the "faith of demons" that doesn't save. Not even in the ballpark.
But, I wonder if you understood my point at all. Many pastors/teachers use James 2:19 as an example of a "faith" that doesn't save, which is the "faith of demons".
In the first place, there is NO mention of "faith of demons" anyway. James was pointing out that demons believe (know) that "God is One". They KNOW because they experienced it in heaven before they rebelled.
To be clear, James 2:19 isn't about demons believing that God exists. Of course they do. He created them and they lived in heaven until the rebelled and joined Satan's rebellion.
2:19 is about monotheism, which was uniquely a Jewish belief; that God is One. But, the demons didn't take that on faith, but rather because they experienced it.
It's a real shame that so many pastors and Bible teaches use James 2:19 to make unbiblical comments about the "faith of demons" that doesn't save. Not even in the ballpark.
Gee. I didn't mean to confuse you.
But, I wonder if you understood my point at all. Many pastors/teachers use James 2:19 as an example of a "faith" that doesn't save, which is the "faith of demons".
In the first place, there is NO mention of "faith of demons" anyway. James was pointing out that demons believe (know) that "God is One". They KNOW because they experienced it in heaven before they rebelled.
Do you have a comment or point to make about this, or an explanation of something?