The Second Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection.
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Nevertheless, Jesus commands us to pray that we may be counted worthy to escape those things that are going to come upon the earth (Luke 21:36).
Revelation 3:10 calls this a "time of temptation" that we shall escape from if we are of Philadelphia and keep the word of His patience.
God does not tempt any man.
So, while the temptation will be from satan and not God, we find that in Revelation 3:10, those who keep the word of Christ's patience will be preserved from that time...they will not be required to go through it...they will escape those things that are going to come upon the earth (Luke 21:36, Mark 11:24).
If the church goes through the GT, then the salvation of some in the church is sketchy at best, it is not secure.
Because if anyone fails to escape the mark, name, or number of the Beast, they will be eternally condemned.
Yet, Jesus gives to the one who hears His word and believes on Him who sent Him, absolute assurance that he shall not come into condemnation but has passed from death into everlasting life (John 5:24, 1 Thessalonians 1:5 (kjv)).
But if someone in the church takes the mark, their life was not everlasting; it was merely temporal; and they shall come into condemnation.
This presents a contradiction in scripture, from my perspective.
Revelation 3:10 calls this a "time of temptation" that we shall escape from if we are of Philadelphia and keep the word of His patience.
God does not tempt any man.
So, while the temptation will be from satan and not God, we find that in Revelation 3:10, those who keep the word of Christ's patience will be preserved from that time...they will not be required to go through it...they will escape those things that are going to come upon the earth (Luke 21:36, Mark 11:24).
If the church goes through the GT, then the salvation of some in the church is sketchy at best, it is not secure.
Because if anyone fails to escape the mark, name, or number of the Beast, they will be eternally condemned.
Yet, Jesus gives to the one who hears His word and believes on Him who sent Him, absolute assurance that he shall not come into condemnation but has passed from death into everlasting life (John 5:24, 1 Thessalonians 1:5 (kjv)).
But if someone in the church takes the mark, their life was not everlasting; it was merely temporal; and they shall come into condemnation.
This presents a contradiction in scripture, from my perspective.
I would love to stay and help if the danger were not so great to me spiritually.
If anyone doesn't take the mark, number, or name of the Beast, they will have their head chopped off...so from that point on they will not be able to help with things anyway.
But if someone doesn't get their head chopped off in that time, their allegiance is to the Beast.
So, whatever they do will not be of any eternal value except to satan...in bringing about the condemnation of many.
If anyone doesn't take the mark, number, or name of the Beast, they will have their head chopped off...so from that point on they will not be able to help with things anyway.
But if someone doesn't get their head chopped off in that time, their allegiance is to the Beast.
So, whatever they do will not be of any eternal value except to satan...in bringing about the condemnation of many.
Does it?
“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life,
and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:34-36
God is not the author of confusion - Do you agree or disagree with this?
Did our Lord tell us two opposing doctrines?
You have one scripture here that instructs us to watch and pray and to seek to be counted worthy to stand before the Lord. This is the same thing our Lord and the Apostles have warned us of continually.
What are we escaping here - your heart becoming infected with carousing (partying, as if no cares in the world), drunkeness and cares of this life,
So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”
And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived Luke 21:7-8
“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.” Luke 21:25-28
But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their lascivious doings; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of. And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose sentence now from of old lingereth not, and their destruction slumbereth not.
2 Peter 2
What constitutes a destructive heresy? Any teaching that opposes the CLEAR teaching of our Lord, the Apostles and Prophets.
Pre-trib constitues as a destructive heresy because it is not in Scripture and it divides the Body of Christ = destructive.
Pre-trib ONLY can be established by sin = 'adding to and taking away from God's words."
Why do you look for something other then that our Lord and the Apostles CLEARLY stated about His Second Coming?
This is a heart issue which we were warned about. Where and to whom does your heart find rest in?
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace.
In the world you will have tribulation;
but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” John 16
For two thousand years the true worshippers of God have been assaulted, robbed, beaten, falsely accused, hated, mocked, thrown in prison, whipped and killed for their testimony of the Saving Blood of Christ and of God's Righteousness.
What makes you want to believe in something He did not teach or say?
Who said that there is a special group who will be pre-trib raptured? Not our Lord, not the Apostles.
Who are those who will be alive and remain unto the Coming of our Lord? Do you know?
Will those who remain and are alive at His Coming be pre-trib raptured BEFORE the First Resurrection?
“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life,
and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:34-36
God is not the author of confusion - Do you agree or disagree with this?
Did our Lord tell us two opposing doctrines?
You have one scripture here that instructs us to watch and pray and to seek to be counted worthy to stand before the Lord. This is the same thing our Lord and the Apostles have warned us of continually.
What are we escaping here - your heart becoming infected with carousing (partying, as if no cares in the world), drunkeness and cares of this life,
So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”
And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived Luke 21:7-8
“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.” Luke 21:25-28
But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their lascivious doings; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of. And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose sentence now from of old lingereth not, and their destruction slumbereth not.
2 Peter 2
What constitutes a destructive heresy? Any teaching that opposes the CLEAR teaching of our Lord, the Apostles and Prophets.
Pre-trib constitues as a destructive heresy because it is not in Scripture and it divides the Body of Christ = destructive.
Pre-trib ONLY can be established by sin = 'adding to and taking away from God's words."
Why do you look for something other then that our Lord and the Apostles CLEARLY stated about His Second Coming?
This is a heart issue which we were warned about. Where and to whom does your heart find rest in?
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace.
In the world you will have tribulation;
but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” John 16
For two thousand years the true worshippers of God have been assaulted, robbed, beaten, falsely accused, hated, mocked, thrown in prison, whipped and killed for their testimony of the Saving Blood of Christ and of God's Righteousness.
What makes you want to believe in something He did not teach or say?
Who said that there is a special group who will be pre-trib raptured? Not our Lord, not the Apostles.
Who are those who will be alive and remain unto the Coming of our Lord? Do you know?
Will those who remain and are alive at His Coming be pre-trib raptured BEFORE the First Resurrection?
No, @DavidTree.
In Luke 21:36 we are told to pray that we may be accounted worthy to escape those things which are going to come upon the earth.
It is therefore not a sin to pray for the same and to believe that Jesus is going to answer that prayer on your behalf.
If you want to continue to believe in a post-trib rapture, or even mid-trib/pre-wrath, it's alright...
We'll explain it to you on the way up.
In Luke 21:36 we are told to pray that we may be accounted worthy to escape those things which are going to come upon the earth.
It is therefore not a sin to pray for the same and to believe that Jesus is going to answer that prayer on your behalf.
If you want to continue to believe in a post-trib rapture, or even mid-trib/pre-wrath, it's alright...
We'll explain it to you on the way up.
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So you have given here to us, a clear example of how error works in tricking someone to believe something that is not true(pre-trib) by taking one scripture to override the complete collection of prophetic words from our Lord and the Apostles and Revelation and that disagree completely with the opinion of interpretation of the one scripture.
Our Lord said He comes "after these things/tribulation" Matt 24:29, Luke 21:25-28, 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2, 1 John 2:18, Daniel 7
the entire Book of Revelation but most CLEARLY Revelation ch6 and ch 20.
But keep believing you can change all that our Lord has spoken - this is error and seeking establishing your own doctrine(s).
After all, it's only a matter of one's interpretation - right???
Our Lord said He comes "after these things/tribulation" Matt 24:29, Luke 21:25-28, 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2, 1 John 2:18, Daniel 7
the entire Book of Revelation but most CLEARLY Revelation ch6 and ch 20.
But keep believing you can change all that our Lord has spoken - this is error and seeking establishing your own doctrine(s).
After all, it's only a matter of one's interpretation - right???
I actually lean towards pre-wrath/mid-trib myself.
I consider that the rapture happens at the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation.
But really, here is what Jesus says about the timing of the matter.
Mar 13:35, Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
I consider that the rapture happens at the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation.
But really, here is what Jesus says about the timing of the matter.
Mar 13:35, Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
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Trib or pretrib we keep close to god.
1Th 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord is as a thief in the night.
TOOLS
1Th 5:4
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord is as a thief in the night.
TOOLS
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
This is about escaping the Day of the Lord, not the great tribulation.
Exactly. God does not tempt any man so the "time of temptation" (great tribulation) is not from God. I agree.
I believe Revelation 3:10 only applies to the Philadelphia church and it isn't clear enough to use as a rapture verse, e.g. there is no direct reference to the elect being gathered, being caught up, meeting the Lord in the air, etc.
Don't worship the beast or accept his mark. For those who love God more than their own life it'll be easy. Hasn't loving God more than our own life always been the point since the beginning? The great tribulation or MOTB doesn't change what our priorities should have alwsys been.
Agreed. This is talking about eternal security of the soul. This isn't about being exempt from the possibility of martyrdom.
I think it's more like those who believe in Christ's sacrifice have eternal life just as the Bible promises.
However, comma, worshipping the beats or taking his mark would be idolatry and deliberate apostasy. It's hard to see how such a person could be said to love God at all to begin with or if they were ever a true Christian.
From my perspective I see no contradiction here.
Exactly. God does not tempt any man so the "time of temptation" (great tribulation) is not from God. I agree.
I believe Revelation 3:10 only applies to the Philadelphia church and it isn't clear enough to use as a rapture verse, e.g. there is no direct reference to the elect being gathered, being caught up, meeting the Lord in the air, etc.
Don't worship the beast or accept his mark. For those who love God more than their own life it'll be easy. Hasn't loving God more than our own life always been the point since the beginning? The great tribulation or MOTB doesn't change what our priorities should have alwsys been.
Agreed. This is talking about eternal security of the soul. This isn't about being exempt from the possibility of martyrdom.
I think it's more like those who believe in Christ's sacrifice have eternal life just as the Bible promises.
However, comma, worshipping the beats or taking his mark would be idolatry and deliberate apostasy. It's hard to see how such a person could be said to love God at all to begin with or if they were ever a true Christian.
From my perspective I see no contradiction here.
In past posts, I've highlighted that Ezekiel 38:18-19 has these two words also (in the LXX Greek)...
...which I've pointed out I believe the context is referring to what will be a PART of the "2nd SEAL Wars" (comp Rev6:3-4 with v.21; and in how 39:7's wording is parallel to what we see Joseph doing [Gen45:1(6)] in the SECOND year of his "7 yr famine" [5 years remaining]). Other reasons, too... that's just the tip o' the iceburg... lol
...which I've pointed out I believe the context is referring to what will be a PART of the "2nd SEAL Wars" (comp Rev6:3-4 with v.21; and in how 39:7's wording is parallel to what we see Joseph doing [Gen45:1(6)] in the SECOND year of his "7 yr famine" [5 years remaining]). Other reasons, too... that's just the tip o' the iceburg... lol
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No, not you personally, but I thought you were suggesting that this is how "pre-trib viewpoint" understands it. It isn't (however, I accept that SOME pre-tribbers DO view it that way, as in your example at the link you provided, plus likely also the writer of the paragraph you also provided at the bottom of your post)
I agree on one point... that "the supper of the great God" (v.17) is NOT "the wedding feast of the Lamb".
I disagree with his take on "the wedding feast" being up in Heaven (I also disagree on his other viewpoint, elsewhere, that believers can lose of forfeit salvation [however he expresses it, I'm not sure exactly], but that's another subject
)... but I dislike how he only uses one or maybe two passages to supposedly show where we are deriving our viewpoint that the wedding feast/supper will take place on the earth, when actually there are quite a few more than just those two!!
I've gone over these points extensively in other past posts, so I don't want to muddy up this post with all that detail (if I can help it )... but a few points to just touch on, to reiterate:
--"so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord"... takes place at the time of "our Rapture," as I see it (IOW, the "marriage" doesn't wait till the end of the 7-yrs [while we wait UP THERE] for it to occur just before His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19);
--Rev19:7 (pertaining to the "MARRIAGE" and the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]") is DISTINCT FROM Rev19:9 (pertaining to the INVITED "guests [PLURAL]"--whom the passage only states of them, "HAVING BEEN INVITED [perfect participle]"... the "INVITING" took place all throughout the 7 Trib yrs on the earth [not "by US"--as we won't be located on the earth!]... and the ones having been "INVITED" [i.e. TO the MK age] are said to be "BLESSED"--which corresponds with about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of those "saints" having come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [all thru the Trib yrs--per the "INVITATION" going out then] and who are "still-living" to ENTER the earthly MK age [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"] upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19);
--Rev19 says, "the marriage CAME" and the "bride PREPARED"--I don't believe either of these are saying the marriage only just now occurred and she only just now finished preparing... for example, the same "CAME" word is found in both 6:17 and 11:18 and I do not believe those are speaking of the same point in time in the chronology, nor are they saying "is just now arriving" (rather, "came"--especially since, as I've heard Grk grammarians say in the case of 11:18 that the verbs in the sentence should follow [/correspond with] the leading verb in the sentence which in v.17 was saying "YOU HAVE TAKEN [perfect indicative (i.e. timing-related)] Your great power" and reigned...);
And again, I believe the already-wed Bridegroom WITH His already-wed Bride/Wife [SINGULAR] will now (Rev19; Col3:4) be HEADING BACK DOWN to the earth FOR "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (kick-off / inauguration of the earthly MK age), where all the passages related to THAT are next in the chronology / sequence... and where NONE of those folks talked about in those passages (even the "saints / righteous / blessed"--having come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture") are (EVER) "lifting off the earth" (i.e. raptured). NO!
Ex. Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (parallel Matt24:42-51) "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom"!)... THEN "the meal [G347]" (located on the earth, to where He's RETURNING, at that point--and where THOSE folks in that passage [and many others] ARE LOCATED also)
The way I see it, the BEMA has already been concluded when we see that the "24 elders" are wearing "stephanous / crowns" (Paul had said "awarded IN THAT DAY" and not to him only, 2Tim4:8--not the day he would DIE)... and that a searching judgment has already been concluded, as indicated by the word "WAS FOUND" in Rev5:4.
And now I've yacked FAR TOO LONG.
I agree on one point... that "the supper of the great God" (v.17) is NOT "the wedding feast of the Lamb".
I disagree with his take on "the wedding feast" being up in Heaven (I also disagree on his other viewpoint, elsewhere, that believers can lose of forfeit salvation [however he expresses it, I'm not sure exactly], but that's another subject
)... but I dislike how he only uses one or maybe two passages to supposedly show where we are deriving our viewpoint that the wedding feast/supper will take place on the earth, when actually there are quite a few more than just those two!! I've gone over these points extensively in other past posts, so I don't want to muddy up this post with all that detail (if I can help it
)... but a few points to just touch on, to reiterate:--"so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord"... takes place at the time of "our Rapture," as I see it (IOW, the "marriage" doesn't wait till the end of the 7-yrs [while we wait UP THERE] for it to occur just before His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19);
--Rev19:7 (pertaining to the "MARRIAGE" and the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]") is DISTINCT FROM Rev19:9 (pertaining to the INVITED "guests [PLURAL]"--whom the passage only states of them, "HAVING BEEN INVITED [perfect participle]"... the "INVITING" took place all throughout the 7 Trib yrs on the earth [not "by US"--as we won't be located on the earth!]... and the ones having been "INVITED" [i.e. TO the MK age] are said to be "BLESSED"--which corresponds with about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of those "saints" having come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [all thru the Trib yrs--per the "INVITATION" going out then] and who are "still-living" to ENTER the earthly MK age [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"] upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19);
--Rev19 says, "the marriage CAME" and the "bride PREPARED"--I don't believe either of these are saying the marriage only just now occurred and she only just now finished preparing... for example, the same "CAME" word is found in both 6:17 and 11:18 and I do not believe those are speaking of the same point in time in the chronology, nor are they saying "is just now arriving" (rather, "came"--especially since, as I've heard Grk grammarians say in the case of 11:18 that the verbs in the sentence should follow [/correspond with] the leading verb in the sentence which in v.17 was saying "YOU HAVE TAKEN [perfect indicative (i.e. timing-related)] Your great power" and reigned...);
And again, I believe the already-wed Bridegroom WITH His already-wed Bride/Wife [SINGULAR] will now (Rev19; Col3:4) be HEADING BACK DOWN to the earth FOR "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (kick-off / inauguration of the earthly MK age), where all the passages related to THAT are next in the chronology / sequence... and where NONE of those folks talked about in those passages (even the "saints / righteous / blessed"--having come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture") are (EVER) "lifting off the earth" (i.e. raptured). NO!
Ex. Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (parallel Matt24:42-51) "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom"!)... THEN "the meal [G347]" (located on the earth, to where He's RETURNING, at that point--and where THOSE folks in that passage [and many others] ARE LOCATED also)
The way I see it, the BEMA has already been concluded when we see that the "24 elders" are wearing "stephanous / crowns" (Paul had said "awarded IN THAT DAY" and not to him only, 2Tim4:8--not the day he would DIE)... and that a searching judgment has already been concluded, as indicated by the word "WAS FOUND" in Rev5:4.
And now I've yacked FAR TOO LONG.
Thanks for your post. I first want to say regarding this issue of "the rapture" or if you will the "second coming" as to its timing, before the tribulation or after the tribulation should not divide us as Christians. My point is that there will be disagreements but we all should be grateful that Jesus Christ is coming for His Church. In fact, 1 Corinthians 11:19, "For they must be factions among you, (that is differences of opinion) in order that those who are approved may have become evident among us."
I kind of hope your right because nobody in their right mind wants to meet the antichrist. Now, in my post I ask the question based on 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, specifically vs 7, "and to give "relief/rest" to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, " So, in your view, "when do we get rest? Is it by way of the rapture or the second coming?
Also at Hebrews 9:27-28, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, vs28, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME FOR SALVATION/DELIVERANCE without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." According to this verse there is no room for a "rapture."
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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Thats right, Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 3: 12And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: 13 to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
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Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 3: 12And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: 13 to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
But let's see where Paul got this from because it's always good to see the prophets and the apostles on one accord with the word of God. That way we have no need to split the Bible up in two parts. From Genesis to Revelation.
Let's run to Zechariah 14: 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
But let's see where Paul got this from because it's always good to see the prophets and the apostles on one accord with the word of God. That way we have no need to split the Bible up in two parts. From Genesis to Revelation.
Let's run to Zechariah 14: 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
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