Resurrection and Death (Physically and Spiritually)

[BroTan]

Death and resurrection, spiritually and physically. What does this statement mean? There are a few things we must find out. Preachers are miss leading people into believing fantasy stories. People go to grave talking to dirt and statutes, buying flowers, wasting time and money. People believing that they love ones are looking down on them smiling, with all this hell going on in earth. When a person dies, does he or she have any consciousness? Does a puff of smoke leave their body and go flying off into the third heaven? Did you know that there is three heaven? Do you really believe your love ones looking down at you from heaven, smiling. Or do they just float around the earth hunting houses, jumping from behind trees scaring people? If you have a logical bone in your body you know that is sheer nonsense. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true" (John 8:17). We will quote testimonies from the Prophets and the Apostle.

Who gave them the word? (Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.) They received the law by the disposition of angels.

Where did the angels get the word? (Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John The angels got it from the Lord. The Lord got it from the Father. The Prophets and the Apostle are simply quoting the Lord. If you don't believe them, you don't believe the Lord.

Our first witness is Solomon. He is very wise, as a matter of fact he was wiser than any man that walked the earth, except for Jesus of course. Why? I Kings 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment. I Kings 4:1 So king Solomon was king over all Israel. He had the wisdom of God.

Let' see what Solomon has to say about this subject. Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Take a look at what Solomon said. This event happened to us all while we are under the sun. Why did he say under the sun? We'll find this out later. Pay close attention here. The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live. While they live. Then what happens after that? They go to the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

While you are still alive there is still hope. What hope is this? Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: This is what you hope for while you are still alive. Notice something else, Solomon said. For a living dog is better than a dead lion. Why is that? The dog is alive and the lion is dust. Can a dead lion be of any use? No! Solomon said a mouth full, look at the next verse.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

For the living know not any thing, neither any more reward. Why? Once you're dead there is no more hope. If you went to the grave in Christ, he will awake you in the first resurrection, and you will live and reign on the earth with him and the saints. If you did not die in Christ he will wake you in the second resurrection and you will be judged according to your works. If you are dead do you have any memory? What did Solomon say? "For the memory of them is forgotten". Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house. Lol

Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This verse speaks for itself. To put it short you don't remember anything while you are in the grave. Why does he continue to say "under the sun"? He's said it twice. We will find out a little later.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest.
If there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom, in the grave, why does the status quo say there are spirits that walk the earth? They have no knowledge of the Word of God. There are spirits that walk the earth, but they are not dead people. They are fallen angels. We will see an example of one later. In short, the dead don't know anything.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello @BroTan, I don't have a profound interest in this topic (other than wanting to know what the truth is, of course) because I don't believe that anyone's eternal destiny has been/will be based upon it.

That said, I do have a mild interest in the topic (beyond just wanting to know the truth) because this is one of the few doctrines where the whole of the historic Christian church (which often seems at war with itself on other topics) stands together with one voice in perfect unity (and that, for more than 2,000 years now).

Here are some of the Biblical reasons that continue to convince every Christian church and denomination (that falls within the pale of Christian orthodoxy) to teach the same thing concerning this aspect of the Intermediate State (that our souls are conscious in death, even as our bodies lie interred in the ground awaiting bodily resurrection and glorification/the saints, or judgment and condemnation/the unsaved).

Matthew 17​

1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.​

2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.​

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.​

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”​

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”​

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.​

7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”​

8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.​

​

Luke 16​

19 There was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.​

20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,​

21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.​

22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.​

23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.​

24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.​

25 But Abraham said, Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.​

26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.​

27 And he said, Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—​

28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.​

29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.​

30 But he said, No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!​

31 But he said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.​

​

2 Corinthians 5​

6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord​

7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—​

8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.​

9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.​

​

Philippians 1​

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.​

22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.​

23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;​

24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.​

​

Revelation 6​

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;​

10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”​

~Deut
p.s. - Here are a few things to consider about the Scriptures above. If our souls become lifeless (like our bodies are) in death, then:

1. Why was an exception made for Moses (Elijah never died, as you may remember, but was taken into Heaven directly on a chariot of fire)​

2. What does the Apostle mean when he speaks of being "absent from the body" and "at home with the Lord" ​

3. How could we possibly make "pleasing God" our "ambition" in death if our souls are not alive/conscious after we die ​

4. How could the Apostle Paul think that dying (rather than continuing on in fruitful service here, to both God and the church) could be some kind of "gain", or that an unconscious death of the soul could in any way be, "very much better", than living on in a life of service here would be ​

5. Why is an exception made for the souls of the martyrs in Heaven? If they remained with their bodies in the ground (as the proponents of soul sleep believe/teach that they do), how are they found in Heaven crying out in a loud voice to the Lord ​

~Deut

 

[Nehemiah6]

In short, the dead don't know anything.

So the point of your OP is to present the false doctrine that "the dead know nothing". Ecclesiastes presents the viewpoint of the NATURAL MAN "under the sun". The New Testament presents the truth of God through Christ. Therefore "under the Son". So here is the truth about the afterlife:

1. Mankind is comprised of body, soul, and spirit.

2. Physical death is the SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body.

3. There are only two places to which souls can go after death -- Heaven or Hades.

4. Heaven is for those who have been saved by grace and are in Christ. All these souls and spirits are very much alive and conscious in Heaven. Indeed they are described as "a great cloud of witnesses" witnessing the race run by Christians on earth.

5. Hades is for those who have not been saved by grace and are not in Christ. It is a place of torment, and a place where souls await their final judgment at the Great White Throne. These souls and spirits are also very much alive and experience torment.

In brief, "the dead know nothing" is a myth. The dead are all very much alive, except that they are not on earth.

Everything mentioned above is supported by Scripture.

 

[p_rehbein]

For the living know not any thing, neither any more reward. Why? Once you're dead there is no more hope. If you went to the grave in Christ, he will awake you in the first resurrection, and you will live and reign on the earth with him and the saints. If you did not die in Christ he will wake you in the second resurrection and you will be judged according to your works. If you are dead do you have any memory? What did Solomon say? "For the memory of them is forgotten". Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house. Lol

Hmm........so you do a fair job of speaking of what happens to our earthly shells that our Eternal spirits reside in here on this earth. I do not see where you address our Eternal Spirits. Do you believe they DIE when our earthly shells do? If so, that may be your problem........

 

[BonnieClaire]

Death and resurrection, spiritually and physically. What does this statement mean? There are a few things we must find out. Preachers are miss leading people into believing fantasy stories. People go to grave talking to dirt and statutes, buying flowers, wasting time and money. People believing that they love ones are looking down on them smiling, with all this hell going on in earth. When a person dies, does he or she have any consciousness? Does a puff of smoke leave their body and go flying off into the third heaven? Did you know that there is three heaven? Do you really believe your love ones looking down at you from heaven, smiling. Or do they just float around the earth hunting houses, jumping from behind trees scaring people? If you have a logical bone in your body you know that is sheer nonsense. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true" (John 8:17). We will quote testimonies from the Prophets and the Apostle.

Who gave them the word? (Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.) They received the law by the disposition of angels.

Where did the angels get the word? (Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John The angels got it from the Lord. The Lord got it from the Father. The Prophets and the Apostle are simply quoting the Lord. If you don't believe them, you don't believe the Lord.

Our first witness is Solomon. He is very wise, as a matter of fact he was wiser than any man that walked the earth, except for Jesus of course. Why? I Kings 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment. I Kings 4:1 So king Solomon was king over all Israel. He had the wisdom of God.

Let' see what Solomon has to say about this subject. Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Take a look at what Solomon said. This event happened to us all while we are under the sun. Why did he say under the sun? We'll find this out later. Pay close attention here. The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live. While they live. Then what happens after that? They go to the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

While you are still alive there is still hope. What hope is this? Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: This is what you hope for while you are still alive. Notice something else, Solomon said. For a living dog is better than a dead lion. Why is that? The dog is alive and the lion is dust. Can a dead lion be of any use? No! Solomon said a mouth full, look at the next verse.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

For the living know not any thing, neither any more reward. Why? Once you're dead there is no more hope. If you went to the grave in Christ, he will awake you in the first resurrection, and you will live and reign on the earth with him and the saints. If you did not die in Christ he will wake you in the second resurrection and you will be judged according to your works. If you are dead do you have any memory? What did Solomon say? "For the memory of them is forgotten". Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house. Lol

Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This verse speaks for itself. To put it short you don't remember anything while you are in the grave. Why does he continue to say "under the sun"? He's said it twice. We will find out a little later.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest.
If there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom, in the grave, why does the status quo say there are spirits that walk the earth? They have no knowledge of the Word of God. There are spirits that walk the earth, but they are not dead people. They are fallen angels. We will see an example of one later. In short, the dead don't know anything.

BroTan, is the Son of God, according to scripture, Almighty God?

 

[Magenta]

Matthew 17

1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.​

2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.​

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.​

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”​

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”​

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.​

7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”​

8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.​

​

​

​

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, ​

Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.​

​

Strong's Number: G3705

Greek Base Word: ὅραμα

Usage: Sight, vision

Definition: Something gazed at, i.e., a spectacle (especially supernatural).

Detailed definition:

1. That which is seen, spectacle.
2. A sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision.

 

[Magenta]

1 Cor 15:17-18

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So the point of your OP is to present the false doctrine that "the dead know nothing". Ecclesiastes presents the viewpoint of the NATURAL MAN "under the sun". The New Testament presents the truth of God through Christ. Therefore "under the Son". So here is the truth about the afterlife:

1. Mankind is comprised of body, soul, and spirit.

2. Physical death is the SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body.

3. There are only two places to which souls can go after death -- Heaven or Hades.

4. Heaven is for those who have been saved by grace and are in Christ. All these souls and spirits are very much alive and conscious in Heaven. Indeed they are described as "a great cloud of witnesses" witnessing the race run by Christians on earth.

5. Hades is for those who have not been saved by grace and are not in Christ. It is a place of torment, and a place where souls await their final judgment at the Great White Throne. These souls and spirits are also very much alive and experience torment.

In brief, "the dead know nothing" is a myth. The dead are all very much alive, except that they are not on earth.

Everything mentioned above is supported by Scripture.

I think the difference being unnoticed is something happened from solomons time this happened

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

many can’t seperate the time before Christ came with life and the time of Solomon under the curse when they slept awaiting the day this was possible

“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:51-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the ot was under deaths curse , the New Testament is a giving of life and resurrection

 

[mindfulzen]

Death and resurrection, spiritually and physically. What does this statement mean? There are a few things we must find out. Preachers are miss leading people into believing fantasy stories. People go to grave talking to dirt and statutes, buying flowers, wasting time and money. People believing that they love ones are looking down on them smiling, with all this hell going on in earth. When a person dies, does he or she have any consciousness? Does a puff of smoke leave their body and go flying off into the third heaven? Did you know that there is three heaven? Do you really believe your love ones looking down at you from heaven, smiling. Or do they just float around the earth hunting houses, jumping from behind trees scaring people? If you have a logical bone in your body you know that is sheer nonsense. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true" (John 8:17). We will quote testimonies from the Prophets and the Apostle.

Who gave them the word? (Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.) They received the law by the disposition of angels.

Where did the angels get the word? (Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John The angels got it from the Lord. The Lord got it from the Father. The Prophets and the Apostle are simply quoting the Lord. If you don't believe them, you don't believe the Lord.

Our first witness is Solomon. He is very wise, as a matter of fact he was wiser than any man that walked the earth, except for Jesus of course. Why? I Kings 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment. I Kings 4:1 So king Solomon was king over all Israel. He had the wisdom of God.

Let' see what Solomon has to say about this subject. Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Take a look at what Solomon said. This event happened to us all while we are under the sun. Why did he say under the sun? We'll find this out later. Pay close attention here. The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live. While they live. Then what happens after that? They go to the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

While you are still alive there is still hope. What hope is this? Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: This is what you hope for while you are still alive. Notice something else, Solomon said. For a living dog is better than a dead lion. Why is that? The dog is alive and the lion is dust. Can a dead lion be of any use? No! Solomon said a mouth full, look at the next verse.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

For the living know not any thing, neither any more reward. Why? Once you're dead there is no more hope. If you went to the grave in Christ, he will awake you in the first resurrection, and you will live and reign on the earth with him and the saints. If you did not die in Christ he will wake you in the second resurrection and you will be judged according to your works. If you are dead do you have any memory? What did Solomon say? "For the memory of them is forgotten". Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house. Lol

Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This verse speaks for itself. To put it short you don't remember anything while you are in the grave. Why does he continue to say "under the sun"? He's said it twice. We will find out a little later.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest.
If there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom, in the grave, why does the status quo say there are spirits that walk the earth? They have no knowledge of the Word of God. There are spirits that walk the earth, but they are not dead people. They are fallen angels. We will see an example of one later. In short, the dead don't know anything.

Hello BroTan. I had a brother who think I was too tanned this summer, who was essential in making me christian. You are wrong on the angels. Angels went up to heaven and down to earth all the time, so they got their jobs from God directly. Solomon is noted, but a sidetrack I think, not important. You seem obsessed with death. And all about the husk, not a mention of the soul. You must find the heart in your husk, to find your sould. Chill, and go to a tanning salon. And read John the baptist again, and take the whole book, not snippits that you think is convenient or pervert the book enough for your liking, to be a false prophet. People deserve it in context, do not mess with the faith of folks.

 

[Nehemiah6]

the ot was under deaths curse , the New Testament is a giving of life and resurrection

We need to clarify that a bit further. Had the King James translators consistently transliterated Sheol and Hades throughout the Bible, a great deal of confusion could have been avoided. Instead they used the words "grave", "pit", and "hell".

The OT saints did expect their resurrection (as we see in the book of Job and other Scriptures) but the righteous dead went to Sheol/Hades and into a separate "compartment" from the unrighteous dead. They remained silent in Sheol and they were never to return to the earth as spirits. We see one exception when Samuel was summoned from Sheol and God allowed him to come to earth and speak with Saul.

The Bible says that while Christ's body was in the tomb, He went and preached to the spirits in prison. In one sense the OT saints were also in prison so He addressed all the spirits in the netherworld, including the evil angels in Tartarus. But after His resurrection Christ took all the OT saints in "Abraham's bosom" (who were virtually "captive") and "led captivity captive" by taking them to Heaven.

Ever since none of the saints go to Hades, and it is reserved strictly for the unrighteous dead. At the Resurrection/Rapture, all the saints who died in Christ will come with Him to receive their immortal and glorified bodies for eternity. The saints who are alive will be perfected, transformed, and glorified also, and then taken to Heaven with the resurrected saints.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We need to clarify that a bit further. Had the King James translators consistently transliterated Sheol and Hades throughout the Bible, a great deal of confusion could have been avoided. Instead they used the words "grave", "pit", and "hell".

The OT saints did expect their resurrection (as we see in the book of Job and other Scriptures) but the righteous dead went to Sheol/Hades and into a separate "compartment" from the unrighteous dead. They remained silent in Sheol and they were never to return to the earth as spirits. We see one exception when Samuel was summoned from Sheol and God allowed him to come to earth and speak with Saul.

The Bible says that while Christ's body was in the tomb, He went and preached to the spirits in prison. In one sense the OT saints were also in prison so He addressed all the spirits in the netherworld, including the evil angels in Tartarus. But after His resurrection Christ took all the OT saints in "Abraham's bosom" (who were virtually "captive") and "led captivity captive" by taking them to Heaven.

Ever since none of the saints go to Hades, and it is reserved strictly for the unrighteous dead. At the Resurrection/Rapture, all the saints who died in Christ will come with Him to receive their immortal and glorified bodies for eternity. The saints who are alive will be perfected, transformed, and glorified also, and then taken to Heaven with the resurrected saints.

yea as far as I can follow what your saying I don’t think I disagree I know when Moses prepared to die

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or David

“And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.”
‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭7:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then Samuel was awoken from his sleep by Saul and his spirit came up from the earth where his body had returned to dust. I take it as they were resting until the promised resurrection had come meaning Jesus was born and started preaching This is word

“For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:21-22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I believe they slept until the word of life came with Christ and the New Testament and yes he went after his death and preached to the spirits in prison from Noah’s day and the flood but that time was dofferent also in that it wasn’t under the law of Moses it hadn’t been given yet

the law being given made men guilty of thier sins and held them in death until the gospel came and offered life

 

[Deuteronomy]

Greek Base Word: ὅραμα
Usage: Sight, vision
Definition: Something gazed at, i.e., a spectacle (especially supernatural).
Detailed definition:

1. That which is seen, spectacle.
2. A sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision.

Hello Magenta, while there is no question that what happened on top of the Mount of Transfiguration was a "supernatural" event, I cannot find a single commentary or word study that interprets ὅραμα in Matthew 17:9/Mark 9:9 in the sense that definition #2 gives it below (as a "vision" or dreamscape that is seen/heard ~in the mind~ but is not real), rather than as "that which was (actually) seen/heard, a "spectacle" (see definition #1 instead).

IOW, the supernatural spectacle that the three Apostles witnessed (the Lord transfigured in glory, Him talking with Moses and Elijah, and God the Father speaking to them all from a cloud) was real/not a dream.

Detailed definition:

1. That which is seen, spectacle.​

2. A sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision.​

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - I always appreciate the beauty of your artwork, but I also appreciate how beautifully formatted your posts are .. like your post #6 above. It makes what you are communicating not only a pleasure to see, but much easier to understand/engage with at first blush, so thank you for taking the time to do that for us

Mark 9​

9 As they came down from the mountain, He charged them that they should tell no man what they had seen, ​

till the Son of man had risen from the dead.​

​

Matthew 22​

32 ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? ​

He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”​

​

 

[Diakonos]

Death and resurrection, spiritually and physically. What does this statement mean? There are a few things we must find out. Preachers are miss leading people into believing fantasy stories. People go to grave talking to dirt and statutes, buying flowers, wasting time and money. People believing that they love ones are looking down on them smiling, with all this hell going on in earth. When a person dies, does he or she have any consciousness? Does a puff of smoke leave their body and go flying off into the third heaven? Did you know that there is three heaven? Do you really believe your love ones looking down at you from heaven, smiling. Or do they just float around the earth hunting houses, jumping from behind trees scaring people? If you have a logical bone in your body you know that is sheer nonsense. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true" (John 8:17). We will quote testimonies from the Prophets and the Apostle.

Who gave them the word? (Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.) They received the law by the disposition of angels.

Where did the angels get the word? (Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John The angels got it from the Lord. The Lord got it from the Father. The Prophets and the Apostle are simply quoting the Lord. If you don't believe them, you don't believe the Lord.

Our first witness is Solomon. He is very wise, as a matter of fact he was wiser than any man that walked the earth, except for Jesus of course. Why? I Kings 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment. I Kings 4:1 So king Solomon was king over all Israel. He had the wisdom of God.

Let' see what Solomon has to say about this subject. Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Take a look at what Solomon said. This event happened to us all while we are under the sun. Why did he say under the sun? We'll find this out later. Pay close attention here. The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live. While they live. Then what happens after that? They go to the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

While you are still alive there is still hope. What hope is this? Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: This is what you hope for while you are still alive. Notice something else, Solomon said. For a living dog is better than a dead lion. Why is that? The dog is alive and the lion is dust. Can a dead lion be of any use? No! Solomon said a mouth full, look at the next verse.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

For the living know not any thing, neither any more reward. Why? Once you're dead there is no more hope. If you went to the grave in Christ, he will awake you in the first resurrection, and you will live and reign on the earth with him and the saints. If you did not die in Christ he will wake you in the second resurrection and you will be judged according to your works. If you are dead do you have any memory? What did Solomon say? "For the memory of them is forgotten". Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house. Lol

Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This verse speaks for itself. To put it short you don't remember anything while you are in the grave. Why does he continue to say "under the sun"? He's said it twice. We will find out a little later.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest.
If there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom, in the grave, why does the status quo say there are spirits that walk the earth? They have no knowledge of the Word of God. There are spirits that walk the earth, but they are not dead people. They are fallen angels. We will see an example of one later. In short, the dead don't know anything.

 

[BroTan]

Hello BroTan. I had a brother who think I was too tanned this summer, who was essential in making me christian. You are wrong on the angels. Angels went up to heaven and down to earth all the time, so they got their jobs from God directly. Solomon is noted, but a sidetrack I think, not important. You seem obsessed with death. And all about the husk, not a mention of the soul. You must find the heart in your husk, to find your sould. Chill, and go to a tanning salon. And read John the baptist again, and take the whole book, not snippits that you think is convenient or pervert the book enough for your liking, to be a false prophet. People deserve it in context, do not mess with the faith of folks.

Can you bless us with scriptures and verses so I can be edify?

 

[BroTan]

BroTan, is the Son of God, according to scripture, Almighty God?

Not sure I understand the point of the question, but the scriptures are from Genesis to Malachi, and I don't recall seeing the Son of God, but the Son of Man is written in the Scriptures.

 

[BroTan]

So the point of your OP is to present the false doctrine that "the dead know nothing". Ecclesiastes presents the viewpoint of the NATURAL MAN "under the sun". The New Testament presents the truth of God through Christ. Therefore "under the Son". So here is the truth about the afterlife:

1. Mankind is comprised of body, soul, and spirit.

2. Physical death is the SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body.

3. There are only two places to which souls can go after death -- Heaven or Hades.

4. Heaven is for those who have been saved by grace and are in Christ. All these souls and spirits are very much alive and conscious in Heaven. Indeed they are described as "a great cloud of witnesses" witnessing the race run by Christians on earth.

5. Hades is for those who have not been saved by grace and are not in Christ. It is a place of torment, and a place where souls await their final judgment at the Great White Throne. These souls and spirits are also very much alive and experience torment.

In brief, "the dead know nothing" is a myth. The dead are all very much alive, except that they are not on earth.

Everything mentioned above is supported by Scripture.

I would like to see a scripture or verse, I haven't seen the word hades in the Bible. In the Bible the place for torment is forever. Let's go to Daniel 12: 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Let take this a little further and understand that this is a one time event. Let's pick this time up in Revelation 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Notice the books where open just as Daniel prophecy. This torment is coming to those who are coming from the grave, of them that was sleep in the dust of the earth.

 

[BroTan]

Let's find another witness. The Lord said that David was a man after His own heart. David should know about this subject. Let's see if David and Solomon are on the same page.

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help". Why did David make this statement in verse 3? No man can give you eternal life; neither does any man have a lake of fire to put you in. Whom shall you put all your trust? Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. How do you lean on the Lord's understanding and not your own? By reading the book without putting a twist on it and taking every word for what it says, you will never go wrong.
Why should you do that? Pay close attention. Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. If his thoughts are higher than ours, why should anyone try to interpret His Word. Seems like David and Solomon are on the same page. Look at verse 4. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. His thoughts perish when he gives up his last breath. Man is made of 2 elements dust, and breath, no more, no less. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. When David said he gives up the ghost he simply means his breath.

David clarifies this even further in the 88th Psalm.

Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? What did he call the grave? The land of forgetfulness. So far the Bible is consistent.

 

[BroTan]

View attachment 231243

But here I see know context.

 

[Diakonos]

But here I see know context.

I noticed that the book of Ecclesiastes is, primarily, the source of your proof texts for your position concerning the cognitive state of the diseased.
In your own words, what do you think about the book as a whole? What are your thoughts on why Solomon wrote it?

 

[Magenta]