How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Absolutely]

QUOTE="Absolutely, post: 4652349, member: 272916"]Yes scripture does not lie.
Pretrib rapture is easily defended by a babe with a bible

Your authority over me is non existant.

Your challenge is vague.

Your declaration of Gods word needs YOUR attention


When you invoke diety that your perception is flawless, but cannot DEFEND your vague declarations....your "knowledge" is not knowledge....it is assumptions.

Go point by point WITHOUT the inflamatory rhetoric that "me and my perception made you a liar" baloney.

Your methods are not at all productive.
I can EASILY lay out what i believe WITHOUT belittlement or calling others liars.

Pretrib rapture is easy to defend.

I have a well tested vantage point. I am able to enter all positions, linger there, test them, and JETTISON IMPOSSIBILITIES.

( TAKE THEM OFF THE TABLE)
Elephants do not fly.

That puts me in truth.

Try it my friend.

 

[DavidTree]

Being fallible carbon life forms, we all can misinterpret it.

"
One passage that sometimes stirs controversy regarding illumination is John 14:26, “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” Jesus was speaking to His disciples in the upper room, giving them last instructions before His death. This special group of men was to be responsible for spreading the good news of Jesus Christ to the whole world. They had spent three and a half years with Him, watching His miracles and hearing His teachings. They would relay those things to the rest of the world, and would need God’s special help remembering those things accurately. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would teach them and remind them of what had been said, so they could give it to others (including the writing of the Gospels). This verse does not teach that the Spirit will do so with all believers (though there are other verses that speak of the Spirit’s illuminating work).

What is the Holy Spirit’s illuminating work in believers? Ephesians 1:17-18 tells us that the Spirit gives wisdom and revelation concerning Jesus Christ, and opens the eyes of understanding so we can know God’s purposes in our lives. In 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, God has revealed His plans for us by His Spirit, who teaches us spiritual things. The context here points to the Word of God as that which has been revealed. The Spirit of God will always point us to the Word of God for our instruction. As Jesus told His disciples in John 16:12-15, the Spirit simply repeats what the Father and the Son have already said. This repetition helps us remember and fully hear what God has already told us. Sometimes we have to hear things several times before we actually hear them. That’s where the Spirit comes in. "
https://www.gotquestions.org/biblical-illumination.html

Always know this = we are FAMILY and i love His FAMILY for they are my FAMILY - i love you and know this about me, i write very short and abruptly - do not take this in a negative way - greatly appreciate you - Peace and Blessing in Christ and in the Holy Spirit

 

[DavidTree]

Scripture cannot lie

The Scripture is the evidence, the enlightenment and is eternal:
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." - Matt 24:35

Tribulation in from this world is not God's wrath.

Do you want the Truth or error? Do you love God more then men? Do you fear man over fearing God?

You mentioned that pre-trib is easily defended by a babe - but can you, as a babe in Christ accept the challenge that Christ Himself set forth:

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. - Proverbs 30: 5-6

Your authority over me is non existstant.

Your challenge is vague.

Your declaration is of Gods word needs YOUR attention


When you invoke diety that your perception is flawless, but cannot DEFEND your vague declarations....your "knowledge" is not knowledge....it is assumptions.

Go point by point WITHOUT the imflamatory rhetoric that "me and my perception made you a liar" baloney.

Your methods are not at all productive.
I can EASILY lay out what i believe WITHOUT belittlement or calling others liars.

Pretrib rapture is easy to defend.

I have a well tested vantage point. I am able to enter all positions, linger there, test them, and JETTISON IMPOSSIBILITIES.

( TAKE THEM OFF THE TABLE)
Elephants do not fly.

That puts me in truth.

Try it my friend.[/QUOTE]

You just said God's Word, Proverbs 30: 5- 6 is baloney = "Go point by point WITHOUT the imflamatory rhetoric that "me and my perception made you a liar" baloney. "

You keep failing the Challenge set forth by the Lord in His Word.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes scripture does not lie.
Pretrib rapture is easily defended by a babe with a bible

^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[DavidTree]

Your authority over me is non existstant.

Your challenge is vague.

Your declaration is of Gods word needs YOUR attention


When you invoke diety that your perception is flawless, but cannot DEFEND your vague declarations....your "knowledge" is not knowledge....it is assumptions.

Go point by point WITHOUT the imflamatory rhetoric that "me and my perception made you a liar" baloney.

Your methods are not at all productive.
I can EASILY lay out what i believe WITHOUT belittlement or calling others liars.

Pretrib rapture is easy to defend.

I have a well tested vantage point. I am able to enter all positions, linger there, test them, and JETTISON IMPOSSIBILITIES.

( TAKE THEM OFF THE TABLE)
Elephants do not fly.

That puts me in truth.

Try it my friend.

i never said i have authority over you - God has Authority over us - His Word.

Simmer down in the Holy Spirit my brother - you were never attacked and God is for us He is not against us.

The Challenge for everyone is to kneel before Him and His Word.
When we do this we can have Peace and Fellowship - LOVE to You

 

[TheLearner]

You said: "This verse does not teach that the Spirit will do so with all believers " = this is error just as you stated in your opening =
"Being fallible carbon life forms, we all can misinterpret it."

Please read and Pray John 17 into your life (maybe you already have = keep praying until it becomes a integral part of you).

The Holy Spirit is the only Way to understanding the full scope of Genesis to Revelation.

You said: "the Spirit simply repeats what the Father and the Son have already said"
the Holy Spirit does even more then this.

Read, Pray, Study, Pray again the Gospel of John and the book of Acts - Seek and you will find, ask and it will be given...........

You may have done this already - do it again until you receive all He has for you - Love to you my Brother and Friend

It was a quote. But, it is true that Jesus was talking only to and applying what he said to the apostles ONLY. Not every Christian in all times. I started a thread on Illumination related to this topic.

John 14
5 Thomas said, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father too. But now you know the Father. You have seen him.”

8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need.”

9 Jesus answered, “Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The things I have told you don’t come from me. The Father lives in me, and he is doing his own work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or believe because of the miracles I have done.

12 “I can assure you that whoever believes in me will do the same things I have done. And they will do even greater things than I have done, because I am going to the Father. 13 And if you ask for anything in my name, I will do it for you. Then the Father’s glory will be shown through the Son. 14 If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.

The Promise of the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, you will do what I command. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper[a] to be with you forever. 17 The Helper is the Spirit of truth.[b] The people of the world cannot accept him, because they don’t see him or know him. But you know him. He lives with you, and he will be in you.

18 “I will not leave you all alone like orphans. I will come back to you. 19 In a very short time the people in the world will not see me anymore. But you will see me. You will live because I live. 20 On that day you will know that I am in the Father. You will know that you are in me and I am in you. 21 Those who really love me are the ones who not only know my commands but also obey them. My Father will love such people, and I will love them. I will make myself known to them.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “Lord, how will you make yourself known to us, but not to the world?”

 

[Absolutely]

Your authority over me is non existstant.

Your challenge is vague.

Your declaration is of Gods word needs YOUR attention


When you invoke diety that your perception is flawless, but cannot DEFEND your vague declarations....your "knowledge" is not knowledge....it is assumptions.

Go point by point WITHOUT the imflamatory rhetoric that "me and my perception made you a liar" baloney.

Your methods are not at all productive.
I can EASILY lay out what i believe WITHOUT belittlement or calling others liars.

Pretrib rapture is easy to defend.

I have a well tested vantage point. I am able to enter all positions, linger there, test them, and JETTISON IMPOSSIBILITIES.

( TAKE THEM OFF THE TABLE)
Elephants do not fly.

That puts me in truth.

Try it my friend.

You just said God's Word, Proverbs 30: 5- 6 is baloney = "Go point by point WITHOUT the imflamatory rhetoric that "me and my perception made you a liar" baloney. "

You keep failing the Challenge set forth by the Lord in His Word.[/QUOTE]
POT << KETTLE.

NOTHINGBURGER

any verses you care to add?

Lets go.

Stop the silliness

 

[DavidTree]

^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^

i have to go now - please find scripture that you would like to share that you see pre-trib rapture in.

Keep this in mind = Tribulation is not the wrath of God.

 

[Absolutely]

i never said i have authority over you - God has Authority over us - His Word.

Simmer down in the Holy Spirit my brother - you were never attacked and God is for us He is not against us.

The Challenge for everyone is to kneel before Him and His Word.
When we do this we can have Peace and Fellowship - LOVE to You

Very calm
Rested
Ready

Any verses?

 

[Absolutely]

Invoke the bible dave.
Lets go

 

[DavidTree]

It was a quote. But, it is true that Jesus was talking only to and applying what he said to the apostles ONLY. Not every Christian in all times. I started a thread on Illumination related to this topic.

John 14
5 Thomas said, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father too. But now you know the Father. You have seen him.”

8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need.”

9 Jesus answered, “Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The things I have told you don’t come from me. The Father lives in me, and he is doing his own work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or believe because of the miracles I have done.

12 “I can assure you that whoever believes in me will do the same things I have done. And they will do even greater things than I have done, because I am going to the Father. 13 And if you ask for anything in my name, I will do it for you. Then the Father’s glory will be shown through the Son. 14 If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.

The Promise of the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, you will do what I command. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper[a] to be with you forever. 17 The Helper is the Spirit of truth.[b] The people of the world cannot accept him, because they don’t see him or know him. But you know him. He lives with you, and he will be in you.

18 “I will not leave you all alone like orphans. I will come back to you. 19 In a very short time the people in the world will not see me anymore. But you will see me. You will live because I live. 20 On that day you will know that I am in the Father. You will know that you are in me and I am in you. 21 Those who really love me are the ones who not only know my commands but also obey them. My Father will love such people, and I will love them. I will make myself known to them.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “Lord, how will you make yourself known to us, but not to the world?”

Read John 17 - you will see that the Holy Spirit is for everyone - if you can't see this we will discuss - i have to go now - love

 

[TheLearner]

read to here

 

[DavidTree]

Invoke the bible dave.
Lets go

i have to go - work - will get back to you

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[I had said]

TheDivineWatermark said:
"caught up [verb] TOGETHER [ADVERB] with" = at the same time that they will be "caught up" (not at distinct moments, separately "caught up/ raptured")

The VERB and the ADVERB *connect* (you are disconnecting these!)


the "we which are alive and remain" will be caught up at the SAME MOMENT that "the dead in Christ" (as RESURRECTED from the dead / from their graves [that's what "shall RISE [G450] first" means!]) will ALSO be "caught up" (together in ONE SINGULAR "SNATCH-action"--from the earth where we'll all be located "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" where HIS "presence / parousia" will be located)



[BOTH will experience "caught up / rapture / snatch"-action TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME!! not one prior to the other, and NOT JUST THE ONE component!!]

Ok, let's go with that - FIRST the Dead in Christ are RISEN - AFTER that the Rapture - Together we are Caught Up

This occurs at HIS Second Coming in/on the Clouds - Rapture is completed AFTER the Dead in Christ are Risen = which is the First Resurrection.

____________

Ok, let's go with that - FIRST the Dead in Christ are RISEN - AFTER that the Rapture - Together we are Caught Up

Okay, great. Now we're gettin somewhere. = ) (finally. LOL)

This occurs at HIS Second Coming in/on the Clouds - Rapture is completed AFTER the Dead in Christ are Risen = which is the First Resurrection.

Okay, so since you are defining the phrase found in Rev20:6[,5] as interpreted as saying "the first time for resurrection to have occurred," then obviously this means you connect "His Second Coming" with the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" when the "2 Witnesses" will have been resurrected ('to stand again' [on the earth] after having DIED, which is the meaning [/definition] of what we see happening with them in Rev11:11[12]).

You believe ALL "saints" (of all time periods) will be "raised / resurrected [/shall rise]" WHEN these "2W" will be (at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe"), and you consequently define THAT AS "His Second Coming," simply because YOU define "the resurrection THE FIRST" (Rev20:6[5]) AS "the first time anyone will have been resurrected"


...and to do this, you must simultaneously disregard the wording in 1Cor15:23 which states, "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word that means 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK" (<--this has NO meaning, to you, you disregard these words as superfluous fluff);

--you also disregard the fact there is more than one "firstfruit" (James 1:18 saying we are "a KIND of firsfruit," Lev23 showing TWO distinct "firstfruit," and that there is NO definite article before/with "firstfruit" in this verse 1Cor15:23; and then there's "the 144,000" in Rev14:4 who are ALSO "firstfruit," but of a distinct "harvest"... the one that is harvested by means of a "tribulum": aka the "WHEAT" harvest... but *WE* [the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest... <--we see this, among other related points, in/throughout Paul's epistles addressed to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--your view completely disregards all of these issues...)





If I'm to be "convinced" of your viewpoint, I would have to overlook [/disregard] all of the above issues (and more that I don't have time to write, atm) and simply accept your saying "because 'the resurrection THE FIRST' *means this is the FIRST TIME [and thus ONLY TIME] ANYONE [saints] WILL HAVE BEEN 'RESURRECTED'"---thereby placing (according to your reasonings) "His Second Coming" AT THE "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" WHEN the "2W" are resurrected (per Rev11:11[12])... and I wholly disagree with such a notion, because it requires one to DISREGARD vast swaths of other Scriptures stating otherwise.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Still doesn't change that great trib is the wrath of Satan when he persecutes and kills Christians. God allows that to happen and will bring His wrath down when the trib ends at the sounding of 7th trump.

1Th1:10 says, "the One delivering us out-from THE WRATH COMING"... and whereas this text does NOT specify "whose" wrath, YOUR viewpoint SAYS IT DOES.


It simply states "[delivering us out-from] THE WRATH COMING".


(obviously God knows who-all's "wrath" is INVOLVED in that This text, and the other in 1Th, are NOT LIMITING it to be only "God's" as you suggest)






____________




[for the readers: I disagree that ONLY the "7 VIALS" are God's wrath... rather, of THEM it is said, "the seven LAST plagues; for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED"... not "is STARTED AND COMPLETED"! Additionally, the phrase in Rev11:18 can legit be translated "and thy wrath CAME" especially because the previous verse states, "because YOU HAVE TAKEN [PERFECT INDICATIVE] Your great power"... and Greek grammarians say that all verbs following in the sentence must take on the same sense...https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/11-17.htm , https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/11-18.htm ; So I DISAGREE that the verb "came" in v.18 is saying (of His "wrath" that it) "is JUST NOW ARRIVING at the "7th Trumpet" sounding. No.]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'm not going to fall for it - just give up - I don't believe everything in Revelation is part of the 'Wrath of God'...

Ditto what I've just said in my post above/before this one ^ (in my Post #695), see esp. the bottom paragraph starting with the word "Additionally...".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

for the scripture states that after the dead are resurrected up into the air, then we which remain and are alive will

The "dead in Christ" (at the point in time they "shall rise first") are not "resurrected UP INTO THE AIR" and "THEN" the "we which are alive" are "caught up" (alone "caught up," at a separate point in time)... No. Both components will be caught up TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME].

Is this what you meant to say, ...or are you saying that "the dead in Christ" (resurrected) will arrive "IN THE AIR" moments prior to when the "we which are alive" will be "caught up"(<--separately from them) to arrive there, "in the air," AFTER THEY DO? Because if you mean that, then I disagree that this is what the text itself is conveying (for reasons I spelled out in earlier posts).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [ @ewq1938 ' s Post #65 ]
According to your viewpoint, if I understand yours aright, you do not believe it is the saints / believers / the righteous / the blessed only who enter the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies--capable of reproducing, bearing children--the MK commencing upon His return to the earth...
... so who?? other than this??


Do you believe it is those of the nations who have not come to faith in Christ prior to His return? The unsaved? That's who enters the kingdom age?

I don't recall seeing any response to this question.

... so who?? other than this??


Do you believe it is those of the nations who have not come to faith in Christ prior to His return? The unsaved? That's who enters the kingdom age?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[re: the "2W"] and this emphasizes my point - they 'Rose UP' First from physical Death and then Ascended UP. - SAME OUTCOME as those Raptured.
[...]

Start with 1 Thessalonians which agrees with 2 Thessalonians which agrees with 1 John 2:18 which agrees with the Revelation given to the Apostle of John which agrees with the Gospels which agrees with = one Second Coming = FIRST Resurrection after that, Rapture.

My question to you is (in view of your continual accusation toward the "pre-trib" viewpoint), WHY are *YOU* saying this takes place TWICE?

[OR... are you saying that the ONE AND ONLY TIME that "RESURRECTION" will occur is WHEN the "2W" are, and that's AT the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" time-slot... which would mean, according to that (and you), that "His Second Coming" occurs at that time-slot also]

God is not the author of confusion.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

Protection from God if we believe His Word
Confusion if we 'add or take away' from His Word.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

A lot of scripture here which can overlap an that is how some interject what it does not say, so i have a question.
Are you saying there are Two Returns of our Lord? If so please give the scripture reference - thank you
Are you saying there are Two Raptures? If so please give the scripture reference - thank you

To be clear, "pre-tribbers" do NOT say there are "TWO RETURNS" of our Lord, nor that there will occur "TWO RAPTURES" (at two distinct time-slots).

And I would venture to guess that "GRACE_ambassador" [member] was not suggesting such things.



This idea that "pre-tribbers" are suggesting such a thing is FALSE (and/or a faulty understanding of just what it is that we ARE saying).