Saved by Water

Wansvic · Sep 11, 2021

If I understand what you are implying, you better be very careful.

Matt 12:31-32
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

Wansvic · Sep 11, 2021

CS1 said:

...
Also, you don't understand 1corthians chapter 14:2 because you are only picking out a few verses that support your doctrinal position just like the cessationist do who are saying the gifts are not for today.

The context of verse 14:2 starts in chapter 12 at verse 3 and is through all the chapters of 12 through 14. Known as unit chapters.

you have developed a pretext out of the context. This is an error and inappropriate bible interpretation.

tongues in 1 Corinthians chapter 14 has already been saying is a gift to the church in chapter 12 as it is listed and verse one of chapter 14 which you left out. The speaking to God and not to men in chapter 14:2

verse one says "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. "
Did you fail to provide the whole quote of verse 2 in chapter 14 why?

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

Paul very clearly says how tongues are to be used yet he said not tongues but Prophesying is more effective for the edification of the church unless there is an interpretation.

To says tongues is needed to be saved would not make sense when Paul said Prophesying is what he would want all to do more than speaking in tongues. Why did he say this IF tongues are confirmation of salvation over Prophesying as he said do?

it is because none of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for salvation they are gifts to the church AS it states in Chapters 12 and 14.

Tongues is not for salvation it is a gift of the Holy Spirit which HE distributes as HE sees to those who are already saved.

All the gifts are useless if there is no relationship with Christ first and maturity This is very clear as paul said in verses one to three of chapter 12 before listing the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

here is the standard before the gifts can be used :

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

These verses are the discernment and introduction of paul's teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit before he even mentioned tongues. The Holy Spirit did not even mention through Paul that tongues is needed to be saved nowhere.

This is an error in thinking.

The evidence of speaking in tongues accompanying receiving of the Holy Ghost is consistent in the word. Consider what Paul asked the Ephesus disciples. Have you received the Holy Ghost since they believed? Paul's question alone speaks to the truth that there was a way a person could know for sure that they had received the Holy Ghost.

Paul's comments in 1 Corinthians actually state two things about speaking in tongues:
1. A person who speaks in tongues is speaking directly to God and is receiving personal edification.
2. While in a church setting, the Spiritual gift of tongues is spoken, and afterward a person who has the Spiritual gift of interpretation speaks the message in the known language of the church members for their edification.

Wansvic · Sep 11, 2021

SophieT said:

I am curious. Did you seek the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues? Or, do you speak a message in tongues in the church setting which is then interpreted by others?

rayzor · Sep 11, 2021

Wansvic said:

Psa 19:13
Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and [we shall be innocent from the great transgression].Demon r inside every one hell is within,,im saying [speaking in tongues could be peepers and mutters.] Motive is what counts with god,,& one could do those things out of ignorance

BillG · Sep 11, 2021

Wansvic said:

Why are you implying something that's not actually said?
Are you not adding something that is not there?

Afterall you are very quick to quote

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Which is an implied term and a prescription of baptism and you believe that one needs to baptised in the name of Jesus only in order to be saved.

As you have been asked many times by me and others you don't answer what is the difference between what Peter said and you believe to what Jesus said

Matthew 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

If memory serves me when you have replied you have asked

"What is the name?

Now I am asking myself why did not Peter say

"Be baptised in the name of the Father, and of Jesus and of the Holy Spirit?
Afterall Peter was told by Peter what to do in Matt 28:19.

Wansvic said:

Let's look at

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And then look at what Peter said

Acts 8:15-17
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Now what is the difference between in the name of Jesus Christ and only being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus?

Acts 2 says they will/shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and in Acts 8 they hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit, not the gift.

Now back to Acts 8 those who were baptised who were they baptised by?
My guess is Phillip because he preached Jesus Christ then they were baptised.

There seems to a big mismatch here.
In Acts 8 no mention of being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and Peter uses the name of the Lord Jesus and they had to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit.

Using Simon as you have done you left out what Peter called him wicked and told him to repent.

Yet not before that

Acts 8:16-17
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

As I said there is mismatch here from Phillp and Peter.
Sorry the long post but one final question/thoughts.

Firstly thank you for taking on board concerning 2-3 witnesses that I assumed were people and you replied saying you meant 2-3 Bible texts which you are now saying.

Can you post 2-3 Bible verses in the NT church that states

"Be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remsission of sins"

Ta

Wansvic · Sep 11, 2021

BillG said:

Just wanted to share something about this topic.

I think many expect to feel something dramatic in connection with speaking in tongues when they receive the Holy Ghost. In each case that I know of, people were just crying out to God in prayer. And in many cases they were not actually seeking the Holy Ghost. However, during their heartfelt prayer their language just changed. In many cases the individuals were shocked when the transition took place.

On two occasions the people were taught against speaking in tongues. One was a group of men who got together to pray to strengthen their walk with God. To their complete surprise they all began to speak in tongues. They could not wait to share what happened with other church members. They were shocked yet again. The pastor basically showed them to the door. Upon sharing this experience they mentioned they now consider themselves Bapticostals.

The other was an individual that was being drawn to the Lord. The person had been praying and during an outing had been directed to me. To be honest I had no idea what was expected of me. But in the midst of the conversation, when I was at a lose for words to help explain what the person was feeling, God spoke to my spirit. He said I'm going to fill her with my Spirit. I immediately said lift your hands and thank, and praise God. She did. And after a few words her language changed and tears began to flow. She later said that God was so wonderful to fill her with His Spirit. Because due of the negative talk about speaking in tongues she would probably never have let someone pray for her to receive the Holy Ghost. But God knew her heart and how much she wanted to know Him and He honored that by filling her with His Spirit.

Many people fail to realize what is taking place when the Holy Spirit indwells a person and they speak in tongues. A person begins praying in their language and when God enters their body the language changes and the words spoken flow directly from God's Spirit to their spirit. After receiving the Holy Ghost individuals can pray in either their regular language or in the Spirit.

rayzor · Sep 11, 2021

one word of understanding is better then a thousand in an unknown,,language.

Wansvic · Sep 11, 2021

BillG said:

1. First, as mentioned about the Samaritans in Acts 8 - Philip knew they had not received the Holy Ghost. How did Philip know this? What evidence was missing? This points to their being obvious evidence present to know someone has received the Holy Ghost.

2. As noted in the water baptism accounts all were done in Jesus' name in one form or another; Lord Jesus, in the name of the Lord, and so on. This is because the people obeying the command are doing it in association with Jesus' sacrifice. Peter did not baptize using the phrase because of this truth. Take note there are no references to the titles, Father. Son or the Holy Ghost during administration of water baptisms.

According to Paul the person we were is crucified and buried with Jesus by baptism. (Rom. 6:3-4) And having been planted together in the likeness of Jesus’ death, we shall be also in the likeness of Jesus resurrection. (Rom. 6:5) These truths can be seen in one’s obedience to God’s command that everyone repent, and be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (death and burial) And, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (resurrection power)

“ Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Rom 6:3-8

3. There are 2 verses that addresses what happens to one sins through obedience to water baptism. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

4. The way in which a person can receive the Holy Ghost varies in the word.
Make a request through prayer. (Luke 11:13, Acts 8:15)
God can do it spontaneously. (Acts 2:1-2, 10:44-48)
Someone can assist by the laying on of hands. (Acts 8:12-17, 19:1-6)

Hope I covered it all.

BillG · Sep 11, 2021

Wansvic said:

Not sure you have but willing to discuss further.

If you and post 2-3 bible verses to confirm the word of God is right.
Once again thanks for not saying 2-3 witnesses.

You quote and hang on to

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So my assumption is that if any baptism that adds to in the name of Jesus Christ only for the remission of sins you reject?

The great commandment to Baptise in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

When I ended up in Pentecostal church from an Anglican church I was asked if I was baptised and when I said yes by sprinkling they said I needed to fully immersed.

I was baptised in the name of Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Was that baptism invalid and would you say I need to Baptised again in the name of Jesus Christ?

If you can post 2-3 verses to backup your constant posts per Acts 2:38 then maybe we can discuss.

However you need to present exact verses that you have quoted from Acts 2:38
Can you do that?

Wansvic · Sep 11, 2021

BillG said:

I pasted the actual scripture below in order to explain a couple of things:

Notice verse 12 says that after the people believed Philip's preaching about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus they were baptized (this is water baptism)

Verses 14-15 says apostles sent Peter and John to the Samaritans to assist in them in receiving the Holy Ghost.

Verse 16 makes the point again that the people had not received the Holy Ghost yet. And that they had only been (water) baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Verse 17 says Peter and John laid hands on the Samaritans and they actually received the Holy Ghost.

Verse 18 says Simon saw that by the laying on of hands the people received the Holy Ghost. This implies something occurred that confirmed the group had received the Holy Ghost. But it does not say specifically what that was.

Acts 8:12-18
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Hope this explanation helps.

BillG · Sep 11, 2021

Wansvic said:

Please don't evade my questions I asked if you.

Quoting Bible verses does not answer the questions I asked.

Surely you can answer them with a yes or no?

BillG said:

Wansvic · Sep 11, 2021

BillG said:

Yes. I believe it is necessary to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Because it was he who was crucified for us.

I have copied and pasted all scriptures that give specific details about how the apostles baptized people. This is proof that Jesus' comment in Matt. 28:19 meant the apostles were to baptize in his name. We know the apostles would not have disobeyed Jesus.

Also, as I noted in other posts, everyone was baptized in Jesus' name until some religious people decided to change it in 325 A.D. Many have no idea that what they do is not what the apostles did but a tradition begun by leaders of the Roman Catholic Church.

Acts 2:38-39 (Jewish) The group did not receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believed in Jesus. However, they were told they could expect the Holy Ghost at some point.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 8:12-17 (Samaritans-half jewish-half gentile)
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:44-48 (Gentiles)
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:2-6 (Disciples who did not realize they had to water baptized in Jesus name)
He (Paul) said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Acts 22:14-16 (Paul's water baptism)
And he (Ananias) said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Wansvic · Sep 11, 2021

BillG said:

The post #1030 you replied to provided an explanation of the Samaritan experience. You did not seem to understand a couple of things it expressed. I answered your other question in a different post #1032.

SophieT · Sep 11, 2021

Wansvic said:

this is wrong on so many levels...further, these claims of yours have been addressed multiple times in this thread and in others of the same topic you have created

it is NOT TRUE that all speak in tongues. this is a fabrication of Oneness doctrine and the Bible does NOT say this at all

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13

when we believe, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit...WHEN WE BELIEVE AND NOT AFTER BAPTISM ... your doctrine is not based on scripture

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. 28 Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. I Corinthians 12

backing up and reading the entire chapter of I Cor 12, it is evident that different gifts are given to different people. All do NOT speak in tongues and Paul did say he wished all would do so, but it is plain that he TEACHES that ALL DO NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES

so ALL believers have the Holy Spirit...we are sealed with the Holy Spirit...some speak in tongues when they are first saved and some speak in tongues later and some never speak in tongues but there are different gifts

and another thing...God is NOT 'a' Spirit. the correct interpretation is that God IS Spirit...the only one like Him, there is no other. He is not one of many, but the one and only

people may speak in tongues and not exhibit ANY FRUIT of the Holy Spirit...that is just the sad truth

you have been shown these things many and multiple times and you simply ignore the scripture that states we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, jump right to tongues and say everyone must speak in tongues, despite the fact Paul says everyone does not speak in tongues

your present a false gospel, a false salvation and a false interpretation of the gifts and water baptism

SophieT · Sep 11, 2021

CS1 said:

All the gifts are useless if there is no relationship with Christ first and maturity This is very clear as paul said in verses one to three of chapter 12 before listing the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

SophieT · Sep 11, 2021

Wansvic said:

speaking in tongues is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit

not all speak in tongues...there are other gifts and no one has all the gifts

the problem is you take one gift and create an entire belief system around it and you are wrong

peldom10 · Sep 11, 2021

HisKid said:

Impossible.
Why don't you address the biblical language?

peldom10 · Sep 11, 2021

eternally-gratefull said:

Not scriptural.

peldom10 · Sep 11, 2021

rayzor said:

They are one God. Remember God can be anywhere at anytime at the same time.

peldom10 · Sep 11, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Very FEW, in fact. And he even made a POINT about that.

How come you don't understand that Paul was showing that salvation is from believing the gospel, NOT being baptized in water?

No, he made a clear point about the FACT that he "wasn't sent to baptize".

Since you like to point out your discernment skills in reading Scripture, you've got to deal with that. An evangelist who says he wasn't sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel.

If salvation requires baptism, that's a read odd thing to say.

Since we're talking about Paul and what he said about his own ministry, let's ask Paul what MUST we DO to be saved, ok?

Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Well, there you have it. From Paul himself. Why don't you believe Paul's answer to the jailer?

Sure. AFTER they believed and received the Holy Spirit.

The "message of the gospel" that saves doesn't "include a command to be water baptized".

I have just recently addressed that verse. Paul was speaking about the present tense of salvation.

Here are the 3 tenses of salvation:

1. Past tense salvation – justification (saved from the penalty of sin)

2. Present tense salvation – sanctification (saved from the power of sin) this is about spiritual growth

3. Future tense salvation – glorification (saved from the presence of sin)

Oh...so now if there is not a certain number...you can ignore scriptures. Get real.

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