Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[tourist]

Is this true?

Patently false.

 

[mailmandan]

Go learn from the parable of the talents:

"So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."—Matthew 25:28-30

But wait, I thought God never took anything from someone once it had been given. Not only that, he was cast into outer darkness.

The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability. (Matthew 25:15) The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "lazy" and an "unprofitable servant" (Matthew 25:30) who is "cast out into outer darkness," certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This lazy so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer and it's obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness.

The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not mean necessarily that he is saved. Israel (the Jews) were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved.

*Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

*Isaiah 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant (Israel vs. 1) whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

*Nehemiah 1:6 - please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.

 

[FreeGrace2]

ResidentAlien said:
Again, another one picking and choosing their scriptures.

Look, I don't have a dog in this race. Personally, I wish OSAS were true. Then I could have my fire insurance and go on with my life the way I want and know in the end I'll make it in by the seat of my pants.

Wow! I am glad OSAS is not true and I have no wish that it were true. I have no desire to go on with my life "the way I want" and to just make it by the seat of my pants! LOL!

Well, this is sad.

Jesus taught in John 5:24 that believers possess eternal life. Then, in 10:28 He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

And Jn 5:24 means that WHEN a person believes is WHEN they receive the gift of eternal life.

So, from the MOMENT of faith in Christ, that person shall never perish.

As to the goofy comment about "fire insurance", the Bible uses the word "fire" to refer to God's discipline of disobedient believers.

Yes, eternal security IS true. And God's PAINFUL discipline (Heb 12:11) is also true.

Grow up. (spiritually)

 

[FreeGrace2]

JOHN 10:28 KJV "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand."

John 10:28 does not in any way support the doctrine of "eternal security".

This is an admission of very weak reading skills. Of course it does. Jesus said IN THE CLEAREST OF WORDS that those who have been given eternal life (which is WHEN they believe per Jn 5:24) they shall NEVER PERISH.

It says that the sheep (them) are given eternal life and they will never perish.

v.27 does not create conditions for receiving eternal life, in spite of all the Arminians desperately try to make it.

John 5:24 is clear. Those who believe (present tense) HAVE (as in possess, also in the present tense) eternal life.

So, the very MOMENT one believes, they ARE a believer and therefore possess eternal life. So from that very moment, the believer SHALL NEVER PERISH.

The promise is clearly to the sheep. It is not a promise to those who are not sheep.

The promise is to those who believed and were given eternal life.

If you are not a sheep, you do not have eternal life and you will perish. Who is a sheep? The previous verse (27) says: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: "

Again, you are perverting the Bible. There are NO conditions in v.27 that apply to v.28. The condition for receiving eternal life is found in John 5:24. Read it, memorize it, and believe it. It is what Jesus taught.

Sheep are those who are hearing Jesus' voice and are following Him

No, His sheep are those who have believed in Him and have received eternal life. Jn 5:24

Once a sheep, never a goat, OSNG. Or prove me wrong from Scripture.

OSAS = OSNG

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where does this Idea of Once Saved Always Saved come from?

The Bible, of course.

Read John 5:24 and learn WHO receives eternal life.

Then read John 10:28 and learn WHO shall NEVER PERISH.

 

[Evmur]

I still think you are confused about what classic dispensationalist have said about the sheep. No one will be saved by 'good deeds'. only faith in Christ.. As Christ says "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". and that includes Jewish people. This is why I keep asking you how the sheep are saved.

If you are saying that dispensationalists believe that the sheep are not saved by grace, through faith, in Christ alone then ultimately it would be what we call a cult it is diminishing the central christian message. Although I have to admit I don't hear many dispensationalist say this. That is why I keep asking you. We don't hear dispensationalist say there is a ''wider mercy'' but we do hear liberals proclaim this message. But the we do hear dispensationalists say the sheep are saved by faith. for they with the Jews go into the 1000 year millenial reign (according to dispensationalism).

And it bears relevance to this topic, because in essence your are saying that one can indeed be saved by their own deeds the corollary of this is that they through their bad deeds also loose merit, therefore will be one of the goats..

But on saying that that there are three camps in dispensational theology.

1)classical dispensatioanlism (Theres not many holding to this now, from Darby 1830's to around the 50's)

2)revised dispensationalism (from the 50's to mid 80's)

3)Progressive dispensationalism (from mid 80's)


The two prevalent streams of dispensationalism today are the revised and progressive.

Classic dispensationalism holds the view that you have espoused that there is an earthly destiny and a heavenly destiny. the latter two do not hold this view and are more inline with what Christians have always believed., they assert that all believers share the same destiny on a new restored earth and this is what scripture actually teaches.

Again, no matter what eschatological viewpoint you have there is still only one gospel and one way for salvation.. it is not ''wider mercy'' nor by 'good deeds' which gain merit (Roman Catholacism). It is by grace, through faith, in Christ.

In all honesty Evmur I think you do not have a true understanding of what classical dispensationalists where saying. That is why I said you have taken classic dispensationalism and mixed in your own ''wider mercy'' theory. There is only one way.

You are the one who refuses to answer straight, down through the centuries Evangelicals of all shades dodge and fudge the questions I put to you, and I guess I am a dispensationalist for God did not deal with Abe the same way as He dealt with the Jews through Moses and in the gospel He deals differently again. Paul said "A dispensation has been given unto me."

Belief in the 1,000 year reign of Christ is ancient church doctrine. It was abandoned in the 4th century.

When Jesus addresses the sheep He says " Come ye blest of My Father you did good deeds to me...." He said not a word about saved by grace. Nor did they have faith for they did not know what in the world He was on about, "when saw we Thee naked and anhungered? ... " they didn't have a clue about the indwelling Christ.

Again in the Great White Throne judgement which corresponds with Matt 25 we see they are judged according to their deeds. But this judgement takes place long, long after the church has been raptured. So the church has passed from judgement to life.

This question has vexed the church for almost 2 millenia if we are saved by grace through faith and not by deeds then Matt 25 is out of skew. I got the answer.

I got the answer for I DO believe the church is saved by grace through faith the gift of God ... these others are not the church.

And nobody DREAMED that anyone gets anything apart from through Christ.

Nor do you answer to Romans 2. 14
when the Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the requires they are a law unto themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires of them is written on their hearts while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse on that day when according to my gospel God judges the secrets of men by Jesus. Christ.

aGAIN

Dispensations are simply the way God administers His covenants ... hyper dispys are something different.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are the one who refuses to answer straight, down through the centuries Evangelicals of all shades dodge and fudge the questions I put to you, and I guess I am a dispensationalist for God did not deal with Abe the same way as He dealt with the Jews through Moses and in the gospel He deals differently again. Paul said "A dispensation has been given unto me."

Belief in the 1,000 year reign of Christ is ancient church doctrine. It was abandoned in the 4th century.

When Jesus addresses the sheep He says " Come ye blest of My Father you did good deeds to me...." He said not a word about saved by grace. Nor did they have faith for they did not know what in the world He was on about, "when saw we Thee naked and anhungered? ... " they didn't have a clue about the indwelling Christ.

Again in the Great White Throne judgement which corresponds with Matt 25 we see they are judged according to their deeds. But this judgement takes place long, long after the church has been raptured. So the church has passed from judgement to life.

This question has vexed the church for almost 2 millenia if we are saved by grace through faith and not by deeds then Matt 25 is out of skew. I got the answer.

I got the answer for I DO believe the church is saved by grace through faith the gift of God ... these others are not the church.

And nobody DREAMED that anyone gets anything apart from through Christ.

Nor do you answer to Romans 2. 14
when the Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the requires they are a law unto themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires of them is written on their hearts while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse on that day when according to my gospel God judges the secrets of men by Jesus. Christ.

aGAIN

Dispensations are simply the way God administers His covenants ... hyper dispys are something different.

The gospel is the same in all dispensations.

By grace through faith

The only difference, we have the knowledge of what God did to save us, they did not. '

sadly there are dispensational believers who believe the jews are saved by law. And will return to law in the tribulation period. These "hyper" dispys as you call them hurt us.. Because everything think we believe as they do. Scofield did not even believe it..

 

[phil36]

You are the one who refuses to answer straight, down through the centuries Evangelicals of all shades dodge and fudge the questions I put to you, and I guess I am a dispensationalist for God did not deal with Abe the same way as He dealt with the Jews through Moses and in the gospel He deals differently again. Paul said "A dispensation has been given unto me."

Belief in the 1,000 year reign of Christ is ancient church doctrine. It was abandoned in the 4th century.

When Jesus addresses the sheep He says " Come ye blest of My Father you did good deeds to me...." He said not a word about saved by grace. Nor did they have faith for they did not know what in the world He was on about, "when saw we Thee naked and anhungered? ... " they didn't have a clue about the indwelling Christ.

Again in the Great White Throne judgement which corresponds with Matt 25 we see they are judged according to their deeds. But this judgement takes place long, long after the church has been raptured. So the church has passed from judgement to life.

This question has vexed the church for almost 2 millenia if we are saved by grace through faith and not by deeds then Matt 25 is out of skew. I got the answer.

I got the answer for I DO believe the church is saved by grace through faith the gift of God ... these others are not the church.

And nobody DREAMED that anyone gets anything apart from through Christ.

Nor do you answer to Romans 2. 14
when the Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the requires they are a law unto themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires of them is written on their hearts while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse on that day when according to my gospel God judges the secrets of men by Jesus. Christ.

aGAIN

Dispensations are simply the way God administers His covenants ... hyper dispys are something different.

Hi Evmur,

I understand dispensationalism, and the two views that are now widely held. Some still hold to the old classical view although not many now.

But I am pointing out your error in your understanding of a parable. That the sheep are saved by their deeds therefore their own merit. This goes against scriptural teaching.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.. And it doesn't mater what your eschatology is. You can be A, Pre or post millennial is doesn't matter.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Evmur,

I understand dispensationalism, and the two views that are now widely held. Some still hold to the old classical view although not many now.

But I am pointing out your error in your understanding of a parable. That the sheep are saved by their deeds therefore their own merit. This goes against scriptural teaching.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.. And it doesn't mater what your eschatology is. You can be A, Pre or post millennial is doesn't matter.

Amen

The sheep were not saved by their deeds. They were saved by the Deed of Christ.

 

[Chester]

Why are you contradicting yourself instead of frankly admitting that the Bible clearly teaches the eternal security of the believer? Believers are sheep, and since the promise is to sheep, this should be the end of the discussion. Who said anything about the goats or the wolves?

Now there you got something exactly right: "the Bible clearly teaches the eternal security of the believer".

Just do not add any of man's ideas to that - - - such as an unbeliever has eternal security if he has at some previous time been born again . . . or don't turn eternal security into the manmade doctrine of OSAS

 

[Chester]

Once a sheep, never a goat, OSNG. Or prove me wrong from Scripture.

OSAS = OSNG

Ha! That is funny! I like that one!

Problem is it is actually easy to make to make a sheep into a goat.

Once the sheep dies put its carcass where it can decay and fertilize the soil. That fertilized soil will generate some good grass and just let your goat feed there and now you have the sheep turned into a goat.

Once a sheep, might turn into a goat. Or prove me wrong from Scripture.

 

[rayzor]

Ha! That is funny! I like that one!

Problem is it is actually easy to make to make a sheep into a goat.

Once the sheep dies put its carcass where it can decay and fertilize the soil. That fertilized soil will generate some good grass and just let your goat feed there and now you have the sheep turned into a goat.

Once a sheep, might turn into a goat. Or prove me wrong from Scripture.

on the premise that u r what you eat..Eat Jesus.

 

[BillG]

Ha! That is funny! I like that one!

Problem is it is actually easy to make to make a sheep into a goat.

Once the sheep dies put its carcass where it can decay and fertilize the soil. That fertilized soil will generate some good grass and just let your goat feed there and now you have the sheep turned into a goat.

Once a sheep, might turn into a goat. Or prove me wrong from Scripture.

No idea what you are trying to convey here.

Please enlighten me.

 

[Chester]

No.
Some strong anti-OSAS people think what is meant by OSAS is that a person can claim to believe in Jesus and then go on acting as they did before. Sinning up a storm certain they'll see Heaven. Of course that's not true. But the idea has been postulated for years against the doctrine of eternal salvation in order to dismiss its capacity to truly fully and eternally save.

In fact the opposite is true. Scripture tells us those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. And those who do make that habit of sinning are not in Christ and have never known him. 1 John 3.

Therefore, they cannot lose what they never had.


Everything the Bible tells us happens when we receive Christ would be invalidated if we could do something to lose our salvation. First of course, God would have to be a liar. Because Salvation is a gift of God. And God's gifts are irrevocable. Romans 11:29.

If one takes what you say about OSAS then one cannot have assurance of salvation.

Why? Because if you quit doing good deeds and start doing some bad deeds, then OSAS people will look at you and say you were never born again to start with. Thus you need to keep doing enough good deeds so people are convinced you are saved. I tell you living that way will not give you much assurance of salvation!

If you are going to believe in OSAS then believe in it all the way and accept what it means. It means simply that once a person has been truly born again, then nothing they do or don't do can ever make them lose their salvation. That means that if a truly born again person sins like Hitler he will still go to heaven. Even if he curses and swears and tells God he doesn't want to go to heaven, he will still go to heaven.

If you are going to believe in OSAS, but don't want to believe the previous paragraph you have two basic options:
(1) Teach that the believer no longer has a free will (or a moral capability to deny God) and thus cannot/will not choose to not believe
(2) Teach that God will chasten and discipline the believer who is faltering, but if necessary will kill him (the sin unto death) before he becomes an unbeliever

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ha! That is funny! I like that one!

Thanks.

Problem is it is actually easy to make to make a sheep into a goat.

Well, that's the rub. Show me any verse that shows a sheep becoming a goat.

Once the sheep dies put its carcass where it can decay and fertilize the soil.

There is no relevance with this to Scripture.

That fertilized soil will generate some good grass and just let your goat feed there and now you have the sheep turned into a goat.

Nice try, but no dice.

Once a sheep, might turn into a goat. Or prove me wrong from Scripture.

Actually, that's what you have to prove: that a sheep CAN become a goat.

The proof is that there is NO SUCH verse about a sheep becoming a goat.

So, if there is, then edumakate me please.

 

[Chester]

No idea what you are trying to convey here.

Please enlighten me.

Aha! Your wisdom and insight and intellect shine through again! LOL! You see I was saying something, and most will not even catch it!

I will answer clearly and succinctly :

Free Grace 2 wrote this: "Once a sheep, never a goat, OSNG. Or prove me wrong from Scripture."

By parody and satire I was pointing out (1) That he made up a statement that is not even true, and (2) That he begins with a man-made doctrinal statement and then says to prove it wrong from the Bible! (The correct way is to begin with the Bible and then to formulate doctrine from clear Scripture.)

 

[Chester]

Thanks.


Well, that's the rub. Show me any verse that shows a sheep becoming a goat.


There is no relevance with this to Scripture.


Nice try, but no dice.


Actually, that's what you have to prove: that a sheep CAN become a goat.

The proof is that there is NO SUCH verse about a sheep becoming a goat.

So, if there is, then edumakate me please.

See post 176

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you are going to believe in OSAS then believe in it all the way and accept what it means. It means simply that once a person has been truly born again, then nothing they do or don't do can ever make them lose their salvation. That means that if a truly born again person sins like Hitler he will still go to heaven. Even if he curses and swears and tells God he doesn't want to go to heaven, he will still go to heaven.

Ever heard of Charles Templeton? He was a world class evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham. in 1947 they roomed together while traveling through Europe holding crusades.

Later on, he believed something (that wasn't true) that didn't square with reality, and concluded that God didn't exist. So this evangelist, who had led thousands, even hundreds of thousands to Christ, became an atheist. Not one of your run of the mill "activist-type" atheists, but an atheist just the same.

Here is the fact about salvation. The gift of eternal life is received (given by Jesus Christ-Jn 10:28) WHEN a person believes in Christ (Jn 5:24). So from the moment of saving faith in Christ, that person possesses eternal life, so that that person shall never perish.

There are 2 verses that explain very clearly who will be condemned:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The bolded words are in both verses. So, what do they mean? They refer to those who have NEVER believed, which is the same thing as "have not believed".

There is no time frame referenced, so the verses obviously include the entire person's life.

So, if one has NEVER believed, they WILL BE condemned.

But, if one has EVER believed, they SHALL NEVER PERISH. Because they were given the gift of eternal life.

Very simple.

It is amazing that Arminians keep trying to make things difficult.

If you are going to believe in OSAS, but don't want to believe the previous paragraph you have two basic options:
(1) Teach that the believer no longer has a free will (or a moral capability to deny God) and thus cannot/will not choose to not believe
(2) Teach that God will chasten and discipline the believer who is faltering, but if necessary will kill him (the sin unto death) before he becomes an unbeliever

Only #2 is correct.

We know that #1 cannot be true since Jesus Himself described the second soil as one who "believed for a while" but when testing/temptation came, "fell away". (quit believing)

 

[Chester]

Ever heard of Charles Templeton? He was a world class evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham. in 1947 they roomed together while traveling through Europe holding crusades.

Later on, he believed something (that wasn't true) that didn't square with reality, and concluded that God didn't exist. So this evangelist, who had led thousands, even hundreds of thousands to Christ, became an atheist. Not one of your run of the mill "activist-type" atheists, but an atheist just the same.

So you believe that Charles Templeton will be in heaven because he at one time believed?
If so (and it seems this is what you believe), then a person can die as an unbeliever and still go to heaven. Is this what you believe?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Aha! Your wisdom and insight and intellect shine through again! LOL! You see I was saying something, and most will not even catch it!

I will answer clearly and succinctly :

Free Grace 2 wrote this: "Once a sheep, never a goat, OSNG. Or prove me wrong from Scripture."

By parody and satire I was pointing out (1) That he made up a statement that is not even true, and (2) That he begins with a man-made doctrinal statement and then says to prove it wrong from the Bible! (The correct way is to begin with the Bible and then to formulate doctrine from clear Scripture.)

Silly man. That's what I did. I started from Scripture. But maybe you haven't been following very closely.

In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe (in the present tense) have (as in POSSESS) eternal life. Also in the present tense.

So, WHEN one believes, they ARE a believer, and they HAVE/POSSESS eternal life. Got it so far?

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus stated in very clear words that recipients of eternal life (check Jn 5:24 for who that is) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

There is no "man-made doctrine" in my statements, unless you just want to emphasize Jesus' humanity. Then it's correct.

But, unless you can show from Scripture some mention of:
a sheep becoming a goat,
or a saved person becoming unsaved,
or a justified person becoming unjustified,
or a regenerate person becoming unregenerate,
or a born again person becoming unborn,
you ain't got a point.

Therefore, OSNG is true.

But, humor me a bit. Thanks.