1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31

Yahshua · Sep 4, 2021

There have been many who have equally put in years of study in these same events...decades even...but that doesn't necessarily mean they're right. What makes you sure you're right versus another? There's got to be external confirmation, don't you agree?

Also, I've found - when reading the studies of others on biblical matters - that unfortunately there's a tendency to start one's study of the scriptures with an accepted belief, instead of letting the scriptures reveal what we should believe in. In other words, if we started studying end-time prophecies having already believed in a "pre-tribulation rapture" (because we were taught this prior to our own study) well then we're going to read and study scripture in a way that supports the belief...forcing proof for our belief while rejecting information that conflicts with it. It's just the way the mind works. It's called cognitive dissonance.

I've found that at the root of our cognitive dissonance with regard to "pre-tribulation rapture" is the (understandable) fear of experiencing suffering and persecution - even to the point of death - for being a believer.

Naturally, no one wants to suffer or die, and the prospect of enduring that for one's belief isn't something we like to grapple with. I believe "the flesh" is in control of many when it comes to this topic, not wanting to suffer and die. And so our flesh motivates us to find and cling to a way out of it. But unfortunately for our flesh, the recurring theme from Messiah to the apostles is "Crucify the flesh...take up your cross and follow [Messiah]...a servant isn't greater than his Master. If [Messiah] suffered then you will too".

- The Messiah suffered and died...

- The apostles suffered and died...

- The early churches suffered and died...

- ...but we (who've not suffered much if ANY persecution for our faith) get to live relatively peaceful lives now and then transition to even more peaceful heaven later, just before...

- Future servants suffer and die...

----

One of these things ^above ^ is not like the other...and why? What makes us more special than the early church who suffered tribulation and died (and yes, the word "church" is used for them)?

...I guess a better question is; are we even actually willing to suffer and die to prove our faith in the Messiah?

[These are just rhetorical questions for thought. I'm not specifically asking you these, Ahwatukee]

Mindwrencher · Sep 4, 2021

Noteworthy said:

Keeping them from the hour of trial does not equate to rapture. Rapture is not found in the Bible. Rapture is a doctrine derived from the interpretation of certain passages of the Bble. The other churches were not spared from that hour of trial.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 4, 2021

^ SEVEN TIMES (one per each of the churchES named there) the phrase "what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" is expressed in chpts 2-3 (they were intended for each [rather, ALL] of the churchES")...

...so I am not convinced by the point some make that "only ONE church" was promised to be "KEPT OUT OF THE HOUR OF..." [/the TIME PERIOD of...] (in 3:10)

Ahwatukee · Sep 4, 2021

Evmur said:

The great tribulation is indeed the wrath of God. It's God's tribulation, not man's. The use of the word 'tribulation' is not restricted to the tribulation that believers suffer as a result of their faith in Christ. As I said, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, which make up God's wrath, will be in process throughout that entire seven year period. As I pointed out, the 5th bowl judgment/wrath is poured out on the beasts kingdom, plunging it into spiritual darkness, demonstrating that God's wrath is in process during the beasts reign, even affecting him and his kingdom. Everything that takes place during that seven year period belongs to God's time of wrath.

The Bowls are referred to as the last seven plagues, because with them God's wrath is completed. The Lord doesn't return to the earth to end the age until the 7th bowl has been poured out, which again, completes God's wrath. Since the bowls are referred to as the last plagues of wrath, then there would have to be wrath that comes before them, which would be the seals and the trumpets.

This 'coming seven years of wrath will be the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem decreed in Daniel 9:24, with the last seven beings specified in Daniel 9:27. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in process during that entire period, overshadowing the beasts kingdom and all that the false prophet does.

DavidTree · Sep 4, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

You cleverly avoided answering my question.

Is the "Bridegroom" (Jesus) coming to "MARRY" the "FIVE [wise] VIRGINS [PLURAL]" (spoken of in His Olivet Discourse)?

Is that the picture Jesus is portraying, by speaking of those?? (a "marriage-union" when He comes in that text?)

Yes or no?

see and read post #259

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 4, 2021

DavidTree said:

I did read it.

I do not see the answer to my question there (and I remain in the dark as to HOW YOU SEE / UNDERSTAND that passage).

My question being:

Is the "Bridegroom" (Jesus) coming to "MARRY" the "FIVE [wise] VIRGINS [PLURAL]" (spoken of in His Olivet Discourse)?

Is that the picture Jesus is portraying, by speaking of those?? (a "marriage-union" when He comes in that text?)

Yes or no?

You've not answered the question.

Ahwatukee · Sep 4, 2021

Yahshua said:

Because I can present the scriptures to prove my claim and explain why and also show them the error of their false teachings and why they are false. One of the problems that we have today, is that even when you provide the scriptures and explain it to them, they circumvent it, because they just don't want to admit that they are wrong. They've adopted a false teaching and then they contend for it tooth and nail while ignoring and circumventing any scriptural proof that you provide.

You know how many times I have heard this excuse? It's ridiculous. People will always pull the "your interpretation card." I'm not so shallow that I am going to contend for something that I myself can prove is wrong.

From the time that the Lord called me, He drew me to the study of end-time events, which I have been studying ever since. I live in the book of Revelation and all related scriptures. Any issue that anyone brings up, I have already dealt with many times over. I know the answer as soon as I read their claim. For example, we have people here who continue to claim that 0nce a person is thrown into the lake of fire, they are burned up immediately, annihilated, cease to exist. They don't even believe the Greek word which states right in the definition that the word does not imply annihilation. I provide the supporting words of eternal, everlasting, forever and ever, no rest day or night and they still do not believe. It's as though they have lost all reasoning and logic. The blessing is that, there are others who read the post and the Spirit reveals the truth to them and they learn something.

I have heard this one many times as well and have contended many times against it. First of all, my faith is not based on when the Lord gathers the church, but is based on scriptural truth, from combining all related scriptures to make my conclusion. In opposition, many come to the table with partial scriptural information, which is their error. Also, my reason for believing in a pre-tribulation gathering of the church is not because I don't want to suffer and die. When we believed, we are called to take up our crosses, which means to keep our testimony of Jesus regardless of what God allows to challenge our faith, even unto death.

The fact that the Messiah already suffered God's wrath, satisfying it completely, is why believers are not going to suffer said wrath. Jesus stood in our place. He met the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf, He paid the penalty for sin by the shedding of His blood and He took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, so that we won't have to suffer it. And since God's wrath will take place during that last seven years, leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then we must be gathered prior to the on-set of said wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
and by His stripes we are healed." - Isaiah 53:4-5

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

If I was to paraphrase:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life and God's wrath no longer rests upon him.

I have also contended many times with your claim above, which stems from a lack of understanding that the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would suffer as a result of our faith in Him, are not the same as God's coming wrath. To be clear, the apostles and believers of the early church did not suffer and die due to God's wrath, but at the hands of men as a result of their faith. The unprecedented wrath of God that is coming, will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will be God's direct wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world. It is this time of wrath that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer.

Their error also stems from not understanding the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. When has the world ever seen demonic beings resembling locusts being released from the Abyss to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months? When have four angels been released who gather a demonic army of 200 million to kill a third of mankind? The answer is, never! These plagues of wrath will be unprecedented!

Yahshua · Sep 4, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

This is exactly why we are to use scripture to interpret scripture as a confirming witness (for words, definitions, concepts, and methods). If it's not confirmed in the pages of the older text then we don't have the proper interpretation for the later text. That's why we were given the scriptures, to weigh them against any new doctrine. Without it, anyone can fabricate any manner of doctrine.

Ahwatukee said:

Yes, this is a good example. Ok so "are unbelievers annihilated or do they continue to burn for all eternity?" We deal with this doctrinal question from all angles using older scripture:

Conceptually - Is causing men to suffer forever - even the enemies of God - on par with the character and nature of The Almighty as explained in the pages of scripture anywhere? When the Almighty's anger was roused was it forever or did it eventually come to an end? Is His mercy greater than His anger, as explained in the older pages of scripture?

Methodically - Did any of Almighty's judgments of condemnation involved constant torture or was His ultimate consequence "death" (i.e. ending a person's life), in the pages of scripture? Did any punishment of a lesser degree than death last forever?

Texually - What does Gehenna actually mean?

Historically - What was Gehenna functionally used for in ancient Israel? So when the Messiah was explaining Gehenna, what did He really mean to be tossed there?

----

In gathering all of this information, we allow it - not us or what we've been taught - to interpret and explain Revelation's concept to get our answer:

Conceptually (as confirmed by scripture) - The Almighty is merciful and Just, loving all the world. A just, loving Being would make sure condemnation was swift and final. Human kings have and probably would continue to torture their enemies, but as scripture says "God is not a man.."

Conceptually (as confirmed by scripture) - No person outside of faith in Messiah has inherent eternal life. The doctrine of the "immortal soul" came from Roman Catholicism. Even Messiah said, "don't fear those who destroy the body but fear the One who can destroy the body and the soul in Gehenna" (Matt 10:28). Souls aren't immortal.

Methodically (as confirmed by scripture) - No punishment lesser than death - enacted by the Almighty - has ever lasted indefinitely; only last until the 3rd or 4th generation (Ex 20:5; Deut 5:8-10)...and death for an enemy is absolute once enacted.

Texually & Historically (confirmed by scripture) - Gehenna refers to the Valley of Hinnom. It was an actual place where kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire. It was an actual physical valley, treated as "accursed" because of child sacrifice. During the time of old Jerusalem, it was used for the city's waste material. A fire was burned there to incinerate the waste...but the fire's strength was subject to the weather.

So "are unbelievers annihilated or do they continue to burn for all eternity?" Well, based on all the information we're previously given we must conclude that unbelievers are annihilated; destroyed in the valley as waste...and because its fire would be from the Almighty, it - the fire - will never be put out. In other words, there is nothing and no one who would be able to stop the fire and what it was intended to accomplish. No force could stop the incinerator as its smoke ascends forever, which satisfies the Greek word.

---

Now, that's what all previous scripture and information related to the topic explain to us. Do we accept its interpretation or hold onto the doctrine created by Roman Catholicism mixing the faith with Greco-Roman pagan mythology of "hades" that unbelievers are tortured alive forever in the lake of fire as immortal souls?

Ahwatukee said:

My point exactly. When has the world ever seen such things literally happen in biblical history? There is no precedent in scripture. But there is a precedent for the Almighty's servants seeing visions of strange objects and terrifying monsters which were then explained in the physical world as fulfillment.

Everything we believe must be led by scripture explaining itself. The Almighty doesn't operate unprecedently. He gives an event or action that is regarded as an example or guide beforehand.

----

There is already a precedent for a "pre-wrath removal" of believers, but there is no precedent for a "pre-tribulation removal" of believers...unless I've overlooked a passage?

Yahshua · Sep 4, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I think the key point is the statement was conditional, not guaranteed.

If we assume that all 7 messages go out to "all 7 churchES" (and consequently the entire church), then the message of 3:10 implies that some of the church (note that they're not unbelievers) doesn't keep His word and so won't be kept from the time of trial. He even warns that if some of His church doesn't repent He will fight against them with the sword of His mouth (Rev 2:16). Again, the Messiah never denies any of them as being part of His church so we can't argue that the ones in chapter 2 were never part of the church.

Pilgrimshope · Sep 6, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

the church is called to attend the wedding of Christ to the new Jerusalem , as the earthly Jerusalem was called to be wed to God in the ot .

“The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. ( Jerusalem ad67)

Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. ( all
Nations)

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:2-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the whole world Is called to attend this event

“And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The earthly chosen israel kept rejecting his call to attend they killed the prophets and eventually Jesus. So God destroyed the earthly Jerusalem and sent out his servants to preach the gospel to all nations and through this he is gathering attendees to witness and attend ( become part of ) the marriage of Christ with the new creation

DavidTree · Sep 6, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

No churches were promised to be kept OUT of the hour of trial.
"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. " Rev 3:10
The promise of special protection is conditional - keeping the command to persevere in keeping His Word and not denying His Name in the midst of persecution from Jews who were liars and of the synagogue of satan.
What our Lord did promise them is that they would be kept from the hour of temptation - being pressured under the threat of death to do something that would cause them to deny the Lord - remember Peter...

No pre-tib rapture here - unless you sin by 'adding to and taking away' from Scripture.
We know this for certain - How? you may ask - Two Words from the Lord.
#1. There is no Resurrection taking place before or during any of these seven churches.
If no Resurrection takes place - then no rapture occurs.
#2. Jesus says to the Philadelphia church - "I am coming soon." - His Second Coming.

Remember these are seven churches by name out of many more - Why only seven???
Seven is the number of Rest and Complete - What Jesus said to these seven he says to all who are His - the message is Complete.

Why the word ecclesia does not show up in Revelation after these seven churches are addressed???

Because our Lord Jesus Christ says the message is to "The one who overcomes."
Revelation of Jesus Christ is about the Overcomer in Christ - His Saints - His Witnesses-His Martyrs.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:11

1 Thess agrees with 2 Thess agrees with 1 John agrees with the Gospels agrees with Revelation.

No pre-trib lies - The First Resurrection which occurs later in Revelation AFTER the man of sin and his mark.

Everyone must repent from 'adding to and taking away' from the God's Word.

Pilgrimshope · Sep 6, 2021

DavidTree said:

No churches were promised to be kept OUT of the hour of trial.
"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. " Rev 3:10
The promise of special protection is conditional - keeping the command to persevere in keeping His Word and not denying His Name in the midst of persecution from Jews who were liars and of the synagogue of satan.
What our Lord did promise them is that they would be kept from the hour of temptation - being pressured under the threat of death to do something that would cause them to deny the Lord - remember Peter...

No pre-tib rapture here - unless you sin by 'adding to and taking away' from Scripture.
We know this for certain - How? you may ask - Two Words from the Lord.
#1. There is no Resurrection taking place before or during any of these seven churches.
If no Resurrection takes place - then no rapture occurs.
#2. Jesus says to the Philadelphia church - "I am coming soon." - His Second Coming.

Remember these are seven churches by name out of many more - Why only seven???
Seven is the number of Rest and Complete - What Jesus said to these seven he says to all who are His - the message is Complete.

Why the word ecclesia does not show up in Revelation after these seven churches are addressed???

Because our Lord Jesus Christ says the message is to "The one who overcomes."
Revelation of Jesus Christ is about the Overcomer in Christ - His Saints - His Witnesses-His Martyrs.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:11

1 Thess agrees with 2 Thess agrees with 1 John agrees with the Gospels agrees with Revelation.

No pre-trib lies - The First Resurrection which occurs later in Revelation AFTER the man of sin and his mark.

Everyone must repent from 'adding to and taking away' from the God's Word.

I liked this part especially and completely agree

“1 Thess agrees with 2 Thess agrees with 1 John agrees with the Gospels agrees with Revelation”

when we put it all together we have a very clear message from God about it

Mindwrencher · Sep 7, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

The great tribulation is indeed the wrath of God. It's God's tribulation, not man's. The use of the word 'tribulation' is not restricted to the tribulation that believers suffer as a result of their faith in Christ. As I said, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, which make up God's wrath, will be in process throughout that entire seven year period. As I pointed out, the 5th bowl judgment/wrath is poured out on the beasts kingdom, plunging it into spiritual darkness, demonstrating that God's wrath is in process during the beasts reign, even affecting him and his kingdom. Everything that takes place during that seven year period belongs to God's time of wrath.

The Bowls are referred to as the last seven plagues, because with them God's wrath is completed. The Lord doesn't return to the earth to end the age until the 7th bowl has been poured out, which again, completes God's wrath. Since the bowls are referred to as the last plagues of wrath, then there would have to be wrath that comes before them, which would be the seals and the trumpets.

This 'coming seven years of wrath will be the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem decreed in Daniel 9:24, with the last seven beings specified in Daniel 9:27. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in process during that entire period, overshadowing the beasts kingdom and all that the false prophet does.

“As I pointed out, the 5th bowl judgment/wrath is poured out on the beasts kingdom, plunging it into spiritual darkness,…”
Notice in Acts 2, that God’s Holy Spirit was also “poured out” upon all mankind…constituting the Baptism of the Spirit in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy. Find one other place where Jesus baptizes with His Spirit and cite that reference.

Jackson123 · Sep 7, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

Rev 13 talking about great tribulation let see what happen there

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

It seem the antichrist or the devil that persecute saint, not God so GT is also talking about wrath of the Devil to saint/ Christian, mean not raptured yet

Absolutely · Sep 7, 2021

DavidTree said:

I and others have laid it out.
Hands down. Solid bible.
There is no postrib rapture or ANY verse even pointing to it.

Absolutely · Sep 7, 2021

DavidTree said:

Yes
I agree.
There is nothing pointing to a postrib rapture

Absolutely · Sep 7, 2021

Lucy-Pevensie said:

If that proved postrib rapture then we need not look to anything future.

Absolutely · Sep 7, 2021

PennEd said:

"""Enoch removed (or raptured) before judgement. Noah and family preserved through judgement"""
actuality, the placement of Noah is that he was transferred PREJUDGEMENT into the ark with the door supernaturally shut. ...ark being a type of heaven. Then in the story we also see noah rise into the clouds in the BEGINNING of the judgement. And return post judgement AFTER the judgement.....with the ark to reset mankind.

( with family left behind)

Absolutely · Sep 7, 2021

DavidTree said:

You pointed out some important OT truths - God' people are not appointed to His Wrath.
This is clearly repeated in the NT writings.

and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.
1 Thessalonians 1: 10

You said: "Im not sure though why this needs to be a contentious issue for some people."

It is first contentious with our Lord to promote error, most especially when it 'adds to and takes away from His Words'

If this were not so He would of never said:
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. Rev 22: 18-19

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you. Deuteronomy 4: 1-2

This is a irrevocable commandment and pattern set forth by our Lord since the very beginning in the Garden.

The first attack by satan was against His Word. He succeeded and brought the entire creation down with him.
Thankfully TRUTH prevailed - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word is God. John 1:1
And the Word became flesh and we beheld His Glory..........full of Grace and Truth. John 1:14

As long as the Holy Spirit is here with us, in us, to guide us into all Truth, there will be contentions.
The Spirit of Truth does not shy away from the spirit of error - there will always be these contentions when they arise.
There are serious negative outcomes from the error of pre-trib that out Lord wants us to avoid and He clearly showed this to us in His Word.
His addressing the seven churches of Revelation are most evident of these things and the writings of the Apostles.

"""There are serious negative outcomes from the error of pre-trib that out Lord wants us to avoid and He clearly showed this to us in His Word."""
That is a lie.
You do not know what you are talking about.

There are serious negative outcomes from the death , burial, and resurrection of Jesus and salvation alone is more radical than any modern bible student realizes.

But if you are defending postrib rapture, then you NEED Jesus to resurrect the dead in Christ AFTER the living are gathered in rev 14.
Your teachers taught you that.

That makes your doctrine impossible.

Your doctrine is poorly thought out.

Absolutely · Sep 7, 2021

DavidTree said:

The emphasis of the Scriptures given to you is that the People of God / His Church are not exempt from tribulation.

Our Lord Jesus and the Apostles all testify of the same thing - through tribulation we must enter the kingdom of God.

No where can you find that we are pre-trib raptured, just the opposite is stated in Scripture, so your question has been answered.

Jesus words vs your words.

That is your quandry

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31

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