Witness of Christ in the law : one like Moses

Pilgrimshope · Sep 1, 2021

Blik said:

yes agreeable but there are seasons and times meant to Make us grow up into a deeper and better understanding.

it is confounding that Christians group together and constantly make scripture into a battle of “I believe this scripture , I don’t believe that one that you believe “

I think what actually causes that is there are too many ideas that are coming from books teaching thkngs like “ saved by Grace means nothing else can ever apply or be relevant “

to say we’re saved by Grace is true , but what happens without faith ? Are we saved by Grace apart from faith ? Or by Grace and through faith like Noah ? So my point is many say” saved by Grace “ but thier message says “ Grace means nothing God said you need to actually do can ever apply “

there’s a fine line between Gods Grace , and the Grace we invent from no understanding of scripture and much understanding of books claiming that we need to not believe the thkngs Jesus actually said we need to believe

if you look closely at a message it can be dangerous in that it builds walls against truth and labels itself Grace Grace . Me if that most of it actually is like a man standing in front of a burning city and screaming folk running through a raging inferno and the “ teacher “ is standing there in front saying “ nothing to see here no ones actually going to burn , everyone’s safe”

then there’s the truth that Jesus declares and he never tells us the house is. Ot on fire , he instead is directing us to come out and be saved from the inferno others are insisting isn’t occurring because of Grace grace leads us out of the burning building into safety or it’s not Gods Grace

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if a grave teaching has to deny the need for repentance and right living , a proper hope of Christ the kings return , and the understanding that he is making us into a peculiar people set apart from the worldly things it’s the other type of grace from the subtlties of ancient days

Pilgrimshope · Sep 1, 2021

[/QUOTE]
“A covenant is meant to administrate an estate.”

yes agreed genesis 1:26-29 is God granting a covenant of estate between himself and man ( both male
And female were Adam before the fall , after the fall she was named Eve)

that’s sort of what I was saying wasn’t the covenant there when God made the covenant and granted mankind the estate of the earth ?

“In the first covenant the party of the first was God the Father, the party of the second was God the Son.”

this is where you are losing me , the covenant law of Adam is. Ot coming from a position of him being lost and sinful, he wasn’t made or given his covenant in that state , it only became that necuase he transgressed the law meant to be believed just like Christians

if Adam had believed what God said about the fruit he had been given all thkngs , he was the hier of earth already , was in communion and covenant with God already , was chosen and blessed by God already he wasn’t in the position when Moses covenant came they were being covenanted with after they had been cast out of abode presence yet they broke the covenant law through disbelief adam wasn’t needing to be saved he was already safe with God he was in the beginning where we are headed in Christ in the end

the folks in the middle receive the type of covenant you are saying where they have a list of rules they must meet that’s a good description of Israel’s covenant but not Gids covenant with man

think of adams position he isn’t “ God the son “ he is man made after Gods image “ Adam was made by Gods grace and blessing his own eill created Adam and Eve , his own Will gave them dominion it was the purpose of
Making man to rule over the natural and created things of earth. To be blessed and in his presence and walk with him on Eden

that’s not going to have the same rules as a covenant made with sinners and transgressors full of iniquity having already been cut off from his presence and cast away from his house , those who heard the word of life and had access to the tree of life already from the beginning

the rest of the Bible is trying to tell us to get back to that place of fellowship with God . Israel’s covenant was meant to give sinners understanding of what caused our miserable state , so the burden of the yoke comes in at that point adam had no yoke but this simple commandment meant to keep them safe from death

“And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:15-17, 25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That was thier covenant law, they were given everything even Gods own image and likeness , his position on earth of dominion crowned with glory and honor says the psalmist , and then given one law “you may freely eat of any tree in my garden , but this tree is death to you do not eat of it “

Adam and Eve had the covenant from thier very creation and then look what happened when they broke it all the way had been given no shame , no burdens , no toil and yoke , there was no subjection for Eve to Adam they were as one equal, and there was no death for them before they broke the covenant God made with them and made them for indeed it’s thier purpose

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭

God gave them thier estate and set the law in place offering them not a yoke but freedom and life of only they believed his word regarding the fruit

but they didn’t believe him , it wasn’t thier deed but they were lost when Satan convinced them Godnhad lied about the fruit it wasn’t deadly it was good for them “

what happened after they broke the faith covenant given them ?

“And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

..Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, ( not god ) and he shall rule over thee.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

( that’s all only because they broke the covenant of grave through faith )

And Adam called his wife's name Eve; ( he had been given dominion over her because of sin ) because she was the mother of all living.

. And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:11-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Again because of sin these things happened That is the covenant now in Christ that we are given a covenant saying if you believe the word of God , you are going to live forever and dwell
I’m his house forever , inherit the earth , be kingd and priests ( rulers ) over the earth like Adam having dominion ect

but the old through Moses is what you are explaining the one without faith given to a sinful people who you already know haven’t it in them to keep these many ordinances and endless laws and letters it’s why it was given to them. Ot to save them but to teach evil people at heart what sin is and that like the fruit Adam was warned about it is death for man to partake.

I’m still not seeing where ( God the son , received a covenant in the beginning )

this scripture about the lamb being slain from the foundation , doesn’t support that the son received a covenant to me at all . To me it says God determined that the gospel wouldBe necassary from before the world existed because he knows the end from the beginning

Pilgrimshope · Sep 1, 2021

it speaks of foreknowledge of God he was slain from the foundation because God had determined he would be slain at the appointed time when he came forth in the fospel

“Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:22-24‬ ‭

God the creator knew man was going to sin and fall into death before the world was he didn’t cause us to do it but he knew what was going to be he has foreknowledge because he sees our heart and soul , he knew man would sin and die , he knew the children of Israel would continue in idolatry and spiritual fornications and adultery , he knew they would break the covenant like Adam and be cursed like Adam , he knew they would be scattered into the earth and spread that curse into all nations , he knew that he would have to become a man ( the son ) in order to redeem us from death ( body) and hell ( spirit) he knew before he created us what was going to need to be done and further he knew the appropriate time when the world knew it’s sin and we’re captured by death he knew all Of this and determined this also beforehand that the name of Jesus would be lifted up above the heavens as the onlyName under heaven by which men must be saved , he has a plan from before the beginning so Christ was in that way already slain it was already needed and necassary

I still believe the covenant is between God and man , the son was only
Manifest whe. He was born , already existing in heaven of course but one had to be born and die as a man in order to redeem any man from mans sin

Jesus didn’t die once in heaven and once on earth he was determined that he would be born a man and die for sins already but it’s what God said and then later what he said comes to
Pass at the perfect and appointed time again according to his foreknowledge

I believe Jesus came to restore the covenant between God and man the one that Adam lost and. Ot e one coming to fallen dead and sinful man to show them sin and death but the first one which is mans design and purpose

Christ makes us again into Gods image , Christ offers us again entrance into paradise forcing us access past the flaming sword Adam provoked , giving us the relationship Adam severed , redeeming us from the curse adam
Caused

I believe that God is one father , word and Holy Ghost , of those three the word became flesh and became the son who dwelt among us and then returned to his heavenly glory. It may be that I just don’t get what you are saying and if that’s the case I am sorry I just see the covenant that’s written there maybe I don’t see what you do beyond that I’m sort of stuck with the idea of God making a covenant with God and not with man , I believe that’s the whole reason Jesus had to become a man because the covenant is between God and man

I’m not really sure but I do appreciate the conversation

Aaron56 · Sep 1, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

That was only the Law.

In the eternal, where there is no time, His death framed the covenant to make man in God's image. In the fullness of time, the reality of this appeared in the earth. It can be said that Jesus died once even though His death was certified in the eternal realm prior to its appearing in the earth. Eternity contains certainties that are manifested in time and space.

Also, God is spirit. What is the image and likeness of a Spirit? His image and likeness cannot mean appearance and stature. There is no appearance of a spirit in the earth. This refers to His nature and character. Adam did not possess this. Had he possessed it, there would have been no need for Jesus.

Don't you find it odd (I'm speaking as a man here) that it is written “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..."? Prior to this it's a string of "Let there be..." "Let there be...", etc. When He gets to man He says, "Let Us..." This denotes an agreement not required in the prior steps of creation. This agreement is explained by the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and man being created in the image and likeness of God. This is the structure of the agreement: God with God.

Out of this agreement arose the sons of God, the most ancient of houses on the earth. You will see, shortly after this in the Genesis account a continuation of this line: "When Adam was 130 years old, he had a son in his own likeness, after his own image; and he named him Seth. And after he had become the father of Seth, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters." Here, the pattern continued. Seth becomes the son of Adam, Adam is the son of God. Seth bears the image and likeness of his father. This is the pattern Adam knew because he was created with this promise. His other sons and daughters are not sons of God, they do not carry on the priestly duties of representing the House of God. This pattern continues with others; "So and so begat (someone specific) and he had other sons and daughters."

These sons of God are the "priests" recorded before the law at Sinai was given. They are the sons of God who married any woman they wanted and angered God (not demons impregnating with humans which is impossible).

Had the Jews gone up into the presence of God at Sinai, the whole nation would have received the promise vested in Abraham and became a nation of royal priests. But they did not, and were given the Law instead. A law that protected the people until the fullness of time when Jesus would be revealed from among them.

Aaron56

Aaron56 · Sep 1, 2021

"this scripture about the lamb being slain from the foundation , doesn’t support that the son received a covenant to me at all"

Why pay a price if there is no price to pay? This certainty in the eternal, that God the Son has already paid the price for the sins of man before he was made, is a anchor to our soul. Because this was true, there was no way God's plan to have sons could fail. His faith will never fail.

Pilgrimshope · Sep 1, 2021

Aaron56[/QUOTE]
The law was what was given to Adam ?

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses and the law came about 2500 years after Adam , remember we were talking about melchezideks priesthood not being of the law ? But before the law ? Your confused or I am not sure lol

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion… So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion …And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good….
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26-29, 31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your calling that the law ? And im calling it the true covenant between God and man

“And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:8-9, 15-18, 25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s not the law they aren’t sinners they aren’t seperate from God , they are made in his image free having dominion over all the earth including the serpent .
that’s the covenant God made with mankind before sin the law came after because of sin through Moses 2500 years after mans expulsion and fall from grace

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”

till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This goes forth into prophecy Abraham’s seed , to isaacs seed , to jacobs seed then skips over the law period and continues in the prophets with David’s seed , the root of Jesse , the son of man ect until the fulfillment came in the birth of the seed of promise Jesus the messiah .Christ is reconciling what Adam lost for man is the thing

Adam caused the curse , Adam caused man to be cast out of Gods presence and fall Into sin requiring a law later to
Make sin known to them .

Christ is reconciling the creation tonthe true covenant from the beginning that man cursed and lost dominion to Satan and he put us to death by our servitude to sin man needed a law because they were like this

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

man needed this

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJ

so they could know repentance from it and salvstion in Christ. That’s all the law was ever meant to do to bring us to Christ. And he’s restoring what Adam gave away and all Followed sin as he did

it wasn’t what God created man for or to be we were meant to be like him like Christ the lord and creator but man broke the covenant following satans word and this happened

“And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that wasn’t where Adam began God had given him the covenant in the beginning clearly. It’s why man was created to receive all that Christ offers so Adam caused mans expulsion and loss of access to freely eat of the tree of life and caused our terrible temporary state we know now , and Christ offers reconciliation to what was lost

“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:5, 8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Adam lost all that when he broke the covenant between God and man

are you not seeing that Christ is from the beginning ? He’s not the man He is God who spoke the covenant to
Man . In the middle , when the law came to One specific line of men abrams seed by promise that’s the law that came because of sin and for sin to impose sin upon man along with death

it came in the middle through Moses to those people like in genesis 6 , between the covenant and it’s restoration to educate these folks of thier sins which seperate them from God as Adam

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if that’s where a Christians identifies they are still very much beholden to the law unless they repent and believe the gospel and receive remission

Christs doctrine isn’t the law of
Moses it’s what was before the law came To pass Because of sin

Moses taught the law of sin and death about 2500 years after man became sinners so unfaithful spouses had this law

“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭24:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is about what man began in the image of Gods righteousness so his doctrine comes from before the law can you see what I mean look how contrary Jesus doctrine is with Moses and why

“And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭10:2-9, 11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that doctrine is for the faithful for the children not the rebels and sinners who do all the wickedness like those of ancient times after the transgression

Jesus doctrine is about what was between God and man from before they sinned before shame and selereting when man still held dominion under Gods will not in rebellion

“And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what you are saying brother just doesn’t make sense to Me , I’m not saying it’s wrong or anything but I’m saying I don’t see it

I believe that Christ was promised from before the world all the gospel was sire to come to pass and did at the apppinted time don’t see it as you do or it could just be the terminology we’re using but it’s no harm or foul if we don’t always agree let’s let God sort out the differences is my view I’m gonna try to continue with what thre post was intended for and give some examples of the tabernacle and priesthood on the law witnessing of the gospel and Christ

God bless dear brother I always enjoy conversing with you always am trying my best to hear you but sometimes I don’t follow

Pilgrimshope · Sep 1, 2021

Aaron56 said:

brother consider you may be over weighing the verse considering the revelation

“For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world:

but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you believe Jesus was crucified teo times ? Or just the one time about 2000 years ago ? Fulfilling what God had determined before the beginning ?

I believe he was determined beforehand that he would die at the appointed time and it came to pass at the appointed time and that verse should be thought of as when God speaks from the beginning it’s certain and we’re just waiting for it to come to pass when he has determined it

God determined it beforehand is what that means to Me anything God determined is certain going forward in that way he was slain from the beginning but he wasn’t actually slain intil the word came to pass in a way he was slain by faith that’s why they used animal blood in the ot and we don’t sacrifice any blood now

they needed the figure because of the pattern Moses gave , we are those born after the sacrifice of atonement has been made so we don’t need a priest constantly transferring our sins onto animals and killing them so we don’t die in Gods presence

consider the value of the pattern shown to Moses and revealed in the law , and how Christ fulfilled it when the time had come for him to die for the worlds sin

that’s how all of scripture works Gods word spoken later fulfilled

Aaron56 · Sep 1, 2021

Just one time. But you’re dealing with the eternal. God cannot lie, so when God the Son agreed to be the Lamb of God, the appearing of Him on the cross was a certainty.

Aaron56 · Sep 1, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

You’re thinking of things linearly in the opposite direction. Moses presented the pattern because it was already determined Jesus would come in such a way. God the Son was first. Moses, following God, created a pattern but the pattern was established in the eternal, before Moses. Moses was but a shadow and type of who Jesus Christ was, even though Moses came before the appearing of Jesus.

Jesus, in a very succinct way, said as much: “Before Abraham was, I am.”

Aaron56 · Sep 1, 2021

Also (having gone back to reread what you wrote) what existed between God and Adam was not the law of Moses. It was “Do the things I tell you.” This was spoken between a father and a son. This was the first covenant. It was the covenant of sonship.

This is the same thing God gave Moses to say to the people before they gathered at Sinai. ”Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

The Israelites were to gather together, go up the mountain, and hear God together in His presence. But, because they were afraid, they sent Moses up to hear for them. This is when the Law of Moses was given.

Pilgrimshope · Sep 1, 2021

Aaron56 said:

brother God is the father consider this

“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father,

and ye in me,

and I in you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he took a sinners place ( I am in you) so the sinner could be made the son of God( ye are in me ) and this when we receive the soirit let’s us know that he is God who had come to save us who were called the son from the first man

“Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:38‬ ‭

God became one of us ( the son of man ) ( God the son as some refer to him ) born of a woman like we are it’s him the same who spoke the word into existence he did this because man was lost from our true estate

“The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is what he then felt and decided man had no one worthy to intercede

“And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head;

and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.

So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:16-17, 19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I would suggest this whole chapter God is one , there is one savior and lord the son was revealed for our benefit to make us sons again redeem us , restore and heal and reconcile us To God

“For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:…. Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things?

let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth. Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

… therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? Thus saith the Lord, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;

I am the Lord, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Thus saith the Lord, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?

I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭43:3, 5, 7-16, 18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.”
‭‭John‬ ‭13:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:24‬ ‭

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:13, 16‬ ‭

God came when we needed him the most stepped of his throne and was born in the flesh , in order to redeem
Us from sin and death and it’s eternal torment ahead . It is he it is him he set aside his heavenly glory for a moment and jumped into the mess we created as one of us a brother and son born in a manger despised and rejected tortured and crucified , all to save us formoir sakes

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

“Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-7, 9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭

God has manifest himself in three ways The unseen and unknowable Father , the known and made known Son , and by the holy soirit given to us that he himself is revealed in and to us Hom who is one and so magnificent an all powerful God , an all encompassing teacher and priest , a perfect and righteous intercessor , a perfect and spotless sacrifice , a risen and glorified Lord over heaven and earth

When all was lost brother the father became every answer we need to be redeemed and blessed forever with him who has called us to be children from before the world began to spin on its axis , or the stars began to twinkle across the universe , he created mankind to be his children and Satan corrupted them , Christ has come to redeem us into Gods image again having the name of names painted upon our foreheads as holiness tonthe lord

Jesus , Yeshua, jehovah , I Am , The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob , The father , the son , the Holy Spirit, the high priest of heaven , our great and glorious apostle and prophet, our leader and commander , our brother and best friend , our hero and our strength who holds us up

We failed mankind failed the covenant so Gkd came as one of us and restored it for us and offers it to us who believe the gospel

Aaron56 · Sep 1, 2021

I agree.

Pilgrimshope · Sep 1, 2021

Aaron56 said:

Indeed I think often when you particularly and myself discuss we are not hearing one another not because of any fault of ours but because we are saying the same things in our own different way of expressing it

I still don’t think I disagree with what you have said , it might be that we have grown up differently d learned how to express what we are learning from the lord in different words and examples

I honestly before the lord always enjoy reading your input and thoughts d always gather some form of value from tbe interactions even if sometimes our poonts don’t speak exactly the same I don’t think it’s faulty doctrine , but just differing personality and vernacular and ways of expressing the same types of things

it always helps me understand better when you and a few others here offer some thoughts . And I hope that some of you also get some form of value from the time I’ve spent here

Gods Love for you and for them and even for am Man such as myself is vast and well beyond our measure

the Love of God is wide , it is wide enough to bridge the gap between the beginning of time all the way to the end of time and beyond time itself . The love of God is long , it is long enough to last through indignation and fury upon sin that he should decide to reconcile us the weak and feeble to himself who is our unbreakable strength.

The love of God is deep it reaches deep enough to grab hold of and wrap his arms around those sunken in the mire of The world who dug thier graves deep not knowing what they do , and the Love of God is high it reaches high and lifts those same above the heavens and sets them gently before the throne of grace that they may see his glory and know his name who made them and saved them again and again .

“That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. ( wow huh?)

Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:16-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we could mark the center there and find our home there in that place , how wonderful the Lord would smile and how perfectly he would approve and oh what glory we all would see

Aaron56 · Sep 1, 2021

I agree again!

I've learned to look at the scriptures from a legal perspective. I don't mean from the perspective of the law of Moses but from the point of the court of God. I see binding covenants, unbreakable promises, estates, positions of power and authority, and testaments written to the house of God and established on the principle that God created an unshakable kingdom into which He calls us.

We are brothers in Christ indeed.

Pilgrimshope · Sep 1, 2021

Aaron56 said:

well
The difference I see is Adam didn’t have to do anything but believe Gods word of the fruit he wasn’t lost and needing a covenant he already had everything . All he had to do was dwell
With the lord in his image and righteousness and not eat the fruit

When Moses came along it was those who came after the breaking of mans covenant he saw them this way

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses intercedes putting his own life on the line for them and then later just before Moses death God had saw them through and through and knows thier end

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them;

so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that became fulfilled throughout Israel’s story . What I mean is the people changed from what God created that’s why the fruit was forbidden the knowledge caused corruption and invited man to be thier own god determining what was good and evil .

the law of Moses came to those he already knew weren’t going to repent and keep
His covenant but to be just and guiltless in it he gave them chance after chance to repent and return to him under the yoke of that fallen covenant

they could never have been children of God , because they were children of Adam and Eve the first sinners and were born of and created in bondage to sin

we in Christ are called the sons of God because we have remission of our sins and are born again after the crucifixion of our flesh deeds manifests so then will our birth as his children manifest

Pilgrimshope · Sep 1, 2021

Aaron56 said:

Yes brother amen each of us because of our experiences and just our families and positions and everything that is different in our lives we learn how to communicate differently but we as men and women often are saying the same things but in different ways and terms and from a different angle or level of understanding , maturity or lack there of

I know that if I heard the thkngs I believe now , ten years ago I would probably write me off as a “ nut” who just didn’t get it , but now days I try to remember that part so In Ten years of the lord has a purpose for me to be here on my pilgrimage through the world that long before I arrive in his arms

I might not recognize it from where I am now either like I wouldn’t have years back from here

so I always try to remember maybe I just don’t get what someone is saying yet , or
Maybe they don’t get what I’m saying yet , or maybe we just aren’t hearing each other’s perspective and not recognizing our way of communicating

I always like to use a lot of scripture because that’s in my heart , others I can recognize a lot of what’s in scripture in tbier words , but they hardly ever use scripture . Which is just a different way to communicate another brother is like that you were discussing some things in his thread and he speaks a lot of things I recognize from scripture , so I find myself trying to show some other scripture to see a deeper picture of what he knows it’s always beneficial to read particular posts that speak to us often it’s because we recognize the way someone is communicating just like sometimes we don’t and think we’re at odds

I think it’s purposefully that way we are different in personal ways and that’s okay God makes us all

Pilgrimshope · Sep 1, 2021

Aaron56 said:

Also a number of times I have read your what you call “ Legal perspective “ and found a good reason to adjust some thinking of my own . Your appreciated

Aaron56 · Sep 1, 2021

Ha! Tell me about it.

I feel as if I am just scratching the surface of what the Father has for me to see.

pottersclay · Sep 1, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

And this is how it should be iron sharpening iron.
My thoughts of debating age old theologies and doctrines that never really get settled is wasting precious time.
The Lord has instructed us to count our days to be very mindful of time spent and what we have done with them.
We can never undo the past as a single or a whole but we can change the future by learning from history.
For the most part the church has separated jews from gentiles which was never God's intention.
Learning of jesus from the so called old testament enriches ones knowledge and brings irrefutable evidence that he is the one and only Christ. That by none less than a devine intersession has taken place.
No one and nothing could ever put together the intricacies that are in the new testament that so many saints are unaware of.
Future more to have the knowledge God shared with us in the old and stand toe to toe with a jew on his own understanding to witness for Christ blesses us all.

pottersclay · Sep 2, 2021

Not to derail this thread but to sorta add...

I'm a comic strip buff and there's a cartoon called family circus...
Saw this one from the archives today and it just blessed me.

The little girl is explaining to her friend the difference between her brother and her and her other adopted brother. She says...

My brother and I came from my mommies tummy but my brother Arron was adopted and came from my mom's heart.

I thought about us being adopted by God and grafted into his family......just thinking😊😊

Witness of Christ in the law : one like Moses

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