Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[justpassinthrough]

Not its not, at least not exclusively ! Gods Elect are out of every tribe, nation, and tongue !

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10



Do you believe only Jews will be saved?

 

[justpassinthrough]

Hi JPT,

I'll refer you back to my post #240. Thanks for your input.

What do you disagree with in the post

 

[Evmur]

And that is why they are displeasing. Showing kindness is a good thing, saving someones life is a good thing, but in the final analysis, none of these will please God at the judgement.

Unfortunatley Evmur, is stating that man justifying himself in goodworks will be saved.

Not man justifying himself but God justifying.

You say God is holy and I agree, He cannot overlook sin ... but you say He will overlook good deeds?

 

[phil36]

Can you simply run through Christ's judgement on the sheep for me ... mebbe I missed something

I never said anything about Christs last judgement on the sheep, so i couldn't possibly 'simply run through it'.

I'm trying to understand what you are actually saying. I have a couple of questions based on what you have said so far:

1) What do you mean by wider mercy when it comes to salvation?

2)How are the sheep saved?

3) How are the brethren saved?

4) Are the brethern different from the sheep?

It's takes my brain a wee while to catch on sometimes to what is being said.

 

[phil36]

Not man justifying himself but God justifying.

You say God is holy and I agree, He cannot overlook sin ... but you say He will overlook good deeds?

Ahh what do you mean by good deeds and good deeds done by whom is the question Evmur?

 

[Justified]

Hi Justified,

The answer to that is a short one.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— Ephesians 1:3-5

“Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” Acts 2:38-39

and

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. " - John 6:37

You have to remember God does not owe man anything, except justice, and that is basically damnation. All have sinned and fall short of His glory and deserving his wrath.

The fact that God chooses to save any of us is amazing grace indeed. So we have saving grace and we have justice in either instance.

That justice you speak of is not really justice. Justice requires that all be treated equally, all have to have the same chance to attain the same ends. Under calvinism that is not the reality. My disagreement is not with the bible it is with calvinism. The scripture that you quote are true but they do not support calvinism unless you forget what calvinism logically leads to.
Just to look at one point, the atonement, if as calvinist posit the atonement was only meant for those that were pre-selected then that logically means that those that were not in that chosen group had no chance of salvation. You may say that God was gracious in that He saved any, true He is, but that is not the point and you know it.

Why did Jesus come in the first place? To save sinners, to take away the sin of the world, to be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Those are all universal. Who can be saved, whoever believes how, by or through faith. The bible is clear that God loves the whole world His whole creation not just a select few. Calvinism would have us believe that God is glorified by sending the vast majority of humanity to hell when they had no chance to not be sent to hell.

Christ went to the cross to make salvation available to all not just a select few.

 

[phil36]

What do you disagree with in the post

God desires that unsaved people of the world believe…

God so loves the world… I Agree (John 3:16)
God desires the world to be saved…I Agree (1 Timothy 2:4)
Jesus Christ is the payment for sin for the world… I Agree (1 John 2:2)

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:16-17 I Agree

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2 I Agree

• He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world 1 john 2:2 I Agree

Hi JPT,

I have given my answers in blue above, Hope that helps failing that, refer to post #240.
I suprised myself I typed this on phone whiole walking home

 

[justpassinthrough]

Hi JPT,

I have given my answers in blue above, Hope that helps failing that, refer to post #240.
I suprised myself I typed this on phone whiole walking home

Looks like we agree.



Amen.

 

[Evmur]

I never said anything about Christs last judgement on the sheep, so i couldn't possibly 'simply run through it'.

I'm trying to understand what you are actually saying. I have a couple of questions based on what you have said so far:

1) What do you mean by wider mercy when it comes to salvation?

2)How are the sheep saved?

3) How are the brethren saved?

4) Are the brethren different from the sheep?

It's takes my brain a wee while to catch on sometimes to what is being said.

By wider mercy is understood that a great many will receive mercy than just the church, their inheritance may not be Heaven but the New Earth God will create. The meek shall inherit the Earth

The scripture is plain " Come ye blest of My Father [He doesn't say your Father or even the Father] for when I was hungry you fed Me, when I was naked ye clothed Me"

They replied "when did we see the hungry or naked?" they did not know the that Christ indwelled the believers.

But Jesus said "inasmuch as ye did it to one of the least of these My brethren [He doesn't say your brethren or even the brethren] ye did it to Me.

So they were rewarded for their good deeds.

We the breths [being the worst sinners of all] are saved by pure grace.

The sheeps are manifestly a different group from "these My brethren"

 

[phil36]

By wider mercy is understood that a great many will receive mercy than just the church, their inheritance may not be Heaven but the New Earth God will create. The meek shall inherit the Earth

The scripture is plain " Come ye blest of My Father [He doesn't say your Father or even the Father] for when I was hungry you fed Me, when I was naked ye clothed Me"

They replied "when did we see the hungry or naked?" they did not know the that Christ indwelled the believers.

But Jesus said "inasmuch as ye did it to one of the least of these My brethren [He doesn't say your brethren or even the brethren] ye did it to Me.

So they were rewarded for their good deeds.

We the breths [being the worst sinners of all] are saved by pure grace.

The sheeps are manifestly a different group from "these My brethren"

I'm starting to get a clearer picture of what you are saying Evmur thanks.

1) So you have the what you would maybe call the meek, who get rewarded with salvation based on their good deeds?

2) Then you have the brethern who are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone?

3) Then you the sheep..how are they saved Evmur?

 

[brightfame52]

The elect is a reference to the Jews and has nothing to do with some fantasy of guaranteed salvation.



Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

You off to the races my friend.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And both appeal to scripture to justify their position. One day we'll start to talk about real issues instead of doctrine that has no impact on the Christian life.

It is sad all this fighting..

Whats worse is many who are in this argument are making it an arminian vs calvin thing. So they do not even know what the people truly believe (many of us do not consider either side to be our main belief) yet they want to put us under them and say we must believe this by looking at keywords.. and it gets out of control.

 

[brightfame52]

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10



Do you believe only Jews will be saved?[/QUOTE]
Why would you ask me that ? What have I posted that gave you that idea ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1) While justice usually has been used with reference to a standard of rightness, - Biblical

2) Fairness often has been used with regard to an ability to judge without reference to one's feelings or interests. - Unbiblical.

Remember it is God who Judges therefore gives out justice in the end. And it is for His good purposes and Glory.

True

But God judges all have sinned and fall short

Yet he placed all of us under Adam, hence when Adam dies we all died. So that we all may me made alive by being placed under christ.

If God placed people in adam who had not sinned in the likeness of adam. to condemn us all.

Its only faith that God offers everyone the ABILITY to be placed under Christ. to be free of condemnation.

Remember, Christ paid the sin debt. No one will suffer for sin. It was paid.

People will be condemned for unbelief (in adam)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't understand what you are saying here Evmur. It's probably my understanding. Could elaborate a bit further, thanks.

I am confused also

 

[eternally-gratefull]

what was Judas chosen for?

He was chosen to be one of the 12.

He also was chosen based on what Gid knew he would do

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And yet Judas' treachery was before the Resurrection of the Lord, and as Jesus said he was a devil (not my words and before the resurrection)

Amen

Not every disciple is saved. Not only before christ but today.

 

[CS1]

And that is why they are displeasing. Showing kindness is a good thing, saving someones life is a good thing, but in the final analysis, none of these will please God at the judgement.

Unfortunatley Evmur, is stating that man justifying himself in goodworks will be saved.

yes they will if they are done because of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The scripture says good works done to obtain righteousness thereby is displeasing to God, especially when done to appease Him to overlook sin.

Paul teaches that when those who know not the law do what the law requires they show that God's law is written on their hearts such will be judged according to their consciences either to excuse them or accuse them on the day when Christ judges.

What I say is in line with scripture,

The sheep were rewarded because when they saw the Lord hungry they fed Him, clothed Him, visited Him when He was in hospital or in prison. These were good works.

The statement " inasmuch as ye did it unto one of the least of these My brethren ye did it unto Me" doesn't make sense if they themselves were the brethren.

In my view, the sheep are saved already. The works they do are works of the believer.

Thats why they are rewarded

Salvation is not a reward, it is a gift.

 

[CS1]

you said that so much better than I did

Thank you,

for you to say that to me, was a very good complement,.