predestination vs freewill

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awelight said:
The simple answer is no. One does not have to have the indwelling of the Spirit to believe. The New Birth accomplishes this need. The proof of this point is in the Scriptures and by asking simple questions to guide ones thoughts.

Were there not believers in the Old Testament economy? Of course there were. Did they have the indwelling of the Spirit? NO. However by requirement, they must have been born anew by the same Spirit. What requirement you may ask? The requirement revealed by our Lord at the end of the Old Testament economy and should have been known by the Old Testament teachers:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.

Were the twelve disciples believers in Christ? Well eleven were and one was a fake. But yes, the eleven were believing on Christ. Did they posses the indwelling of the Spirit? NO However they had been born anew and had the abiding presents of the Spirit and later would have the indwelling Spirit in them.

What is the promise of our Lord as to the coming of the Spirit. Let's see what Scripture says.

John_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholds him not, neither is knowing him: ye know him; for he abides with you, and shall be in you.

1) He is to be the believers comforter. Christ was departing and this was traumatic on the believers being left behind.
2) Here we are told that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth - of course He is, no believer would deny this.
3) The world cannot receive this Spirit, why not? First, because the world here is the non-elect, they do not know Him. They do not know Him because they have not been born anew. Being born anew introduces the Spirit to the future believer and this self same Spirit abides with this new infant child while he takes his first Conversion steps. Like a father protecting his child from the evils of the world. This begins the baby steps towards Christ and the Gospel is the beacon which leads the way.
4) That in the near future the Spirit would be indwelling them.

What is the purpose of the Spirits indwelling? Again, what does the Scripture say?

John_14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

1) He will teach us. He does this by illuminating our minds as we study, witness and hear the word expounded. But He does not teach what we have not been exposed to. He does not give us information but aids in our understanding, of those things which have been revealed in Holy Writ.
2) He brings us into remembrance. As humans, without this aid, we would forget more than we know.

John_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:

1) The Holy Spirit does not seek His own glory but moves all things towards Christ in our knowledge, so that Christ is further exalted.

John_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.

The Holy Spirit was so necessary for the Universal Church, which Christ is building, that the Lord Himself said - it is expedient for you that I go away. Why so expedient? The answer I believe is in this verse:

1Pe_2:9 But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Other passages, tell us more about the Spirits office in the Universal Church.
Click to expand...

Are you sure what I’ve been saying is not monergism? My words sounds a lot like this article.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/reg_word.html
 
awelight said:
I never said there was some extended "gap" between Regeneration and hearing the Gospel. What I said is, no one human can pin point the exact moment of the new birth. Only God knows for sure if there is a Nano-second gap or if it is longer. I do not speak for the Lord. I simply maintain, that the new birth must come first.

You make it sound as if hearing the Gospel and believing are one in the same thing. A person does not believe the moment they hear the Gospel, they have to consider the Gospel message and determine if they agree with what is heard. Ponder who this Jesus Christ is, way the cost, then give themselves over to Christ. This could take hours if not days. So why do you have a problem with a so called time gap between regeneration and believing. Makes no sense to me.

You say you believe in a monergism, but this belief states: Monergism is the view within Christian Theology which holds that God works through the Holy Spirit to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, regardless of the individual's cooperation. This is what I believe. What you are professing is some sort of synergism based upon Gospel regeneration.

You say, that I have a person being born anew before they are Justified. Really - I will be as gracious as I can here, but you have a ways to go on the subject of Justification. If you believe that a person is Justified when they believe, you have missed the target by a mile.

Does the Father justify the Elect out of our faith or out of the faithful work of His Son? Do you think the Justification of the Elect is based on what the elect does or does not? That God places his entire plan on whether we believe or exercise faith? God leaves nothing in the hands of man, this is taught throughout Scripture. God is in control of His plan of Salvation. He enables man to do His will and insures that the elect make it all the way,

The Justification of the Elect was a done deal before God created and before His Son went to the cross. The Elect were in Christ before the foundation of the world. Justification was accomplished in God's eternal purpose because nothing can stop God from accomplishing what He purposes. This is why Paul wrote what he wrote in the past tense.

Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies;

To many believers still don't grasp the concept of Eternal Security for what it is. The Elect are Eternally secure because nothing is dependent upon the elect. The elect will fulfil the requirements of salvation because God will make sure they do. He has purposed it already and it will take place just that way. God met the requirements of the Law Himself and has already accomplished all that is required to satisfy His Holy Justice. When Christ on the cross said: It is finished. That is exactly what He meant. He finished all that His Father had purposed for Him. We are the recipients of Grace, put no human requirement in the way. If a person is born anew, he will believe and nothing can stop that.
Click to expand...

PS what I meant to say is gap of time between regeneration and hearing. Of course there is often a gap between hearing and regeneration. That was very true in my life. But I do not see a scriptural basis for a gap between regeneration and hearing, as if you can be regenerated without the Word.

I am pretty much saying the same position as the article I posted a few minutes ago

I came to this position through study of the Word, but when you basically said what I was saying is synergism I checked your claim

No, my argument is a form of monergism as the article shows.

Pretty much we just need to agree to disagree

Here’s the article again if you missed it.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/reg_word.html

Take care, sir.
 
Icedaisey said:
And now, above, as you detailed how and why that all made sense to you, as you attempted to first define the heresy of tritheism, and then detailed how it all makes sense to you.
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Its a cult that teaches "the heresy of Tritheism".
As there isn't any mainline denomination that teaches this heresy.
So, you've defined yourself as that, by trying to deny that John 1 is in the New Testament.
You've denied that 1st Timothy 3:16 is in the New Testament.
You've denied that John 1:10 is true.
You've denied that Colossians 1:16 is true.

You are denying that Jesus is God, or you are trying to prove that Jesus is the only God.
In both cases, this is a CULT teaching, only.
 
Kidron said:
God does not need to be saved. So, He didnt die on the Cross to save Himself.

Your theology is not related to why Christ died on the Cross.
You might want to realize this, and get out of your denomination.
Click to expand...
You and I both know that the sacrifice that Jesus was to eternally save all of those people that his Father gave to him. His sacrifice was to carry out the will of God for God's approval, not for mankind's approval. Your theory of the scriptures will not harmonize, but has many contradictions. All scriptures must harmonize to see the big pitcher of God's love, sovereign grace and mercy in the eternal deliverance of his people.

How you come to the conclusion that I indicated that Christ died on the cross to save himself is beyond my comprehension. In your studies, you need to consider "ALL" of the scriptures.
 
Kidron said:
But in a different aspect than Humans.
For example fallen humans can be born again, while fallen angels cannot.
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We who are born again will be like the angels, if we attain to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; being sons of the resurrection.


But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36



  • But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead


  • for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.







JLB
 
awelight said:
I am not sure what your point was you were trying to make but hopefully, it was not to deny eternal security.

2 Peter 2:4, was stating a fact, after the war in Heaven, 1/3 of the Angels were cast out of Heaven. No more will be cast out because they are upheld by God's Righteousness and Power.

2 Peter 2:20-22. is not referencing a true believer, it is talking about one who meddles in the things of God but walks in the flesh. This is the picture of a Religionist, talks a good talk, calls themselves a Christian but continues in the entanglements of the world and it's vices. But having learned some of the things about God's laws and Commandments but are still lost, it would have been better for them to have never known. Why? Because this knowledge will be used against them in the coming Judgement. The proof of who this type of person is - is in 2 Peter 2:10-19.

A true believer cannot fall from Grace. If this could happen, it would make Christ a liar.
Click to expand...


Jesus warned us to remain “in Him”.


A born again Christian must obey the Lord if he wants to receive eternal salvation.

Otherwise he would make the Lord a liar.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



  • He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.





JPT
 
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ForestGreenCook said:
You and I both know that the sacrifice that Jesus was to eternally save all of those people that his Father gave to him.
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Here is what Paul teaches...which is what I know.
I invite you to know it also....

The will of God is that you believe on the One, whom, God sent.

John 3:16 says......"whosoever will believe"......so, that is a universal offer that denies the cult of the pre-destined elect's heresy.

Jesus said...>"If i be lifted up on the Cross, i will draw ALL men, to me'".......so, "all" denies the cult of the pre-destined elect's heresy.

John 3:17 says....>""For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Christ". and this verse denies the cult of the pre-destined elect's heresy...
 
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justpassinthrough said:
We who are born again will be like the angels, if we attain to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; being sons of the resurrection.
Click to expand...


Thank you for continuing to be obsessed on "angels", instead of concerning yourself with anything that actually matters.
 
ForestGreenCook said:
The old testament saints were born again, the same way that we are born again, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Isa 63:11.
Click to expand...

You can't be born again, unless Christ is on the Cross dying for your sin as this........John 3:16,17.

So, if Jesus died on the Cross in the Old Testament, then your cult is telling you the truth.
If Jesus didn't die on the Cross in the Old Testament then you are in a FALSE situation, aren't you.....
Better solve it., while you still can.
 
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Kidron said:
Here is what Paul teaches...which is what I know.
I invite you to know it also....

The will of God is that you believe on the One, whom, God sent.

John 3:16 says......"whosoever will believe"......so, that is a universal offer that denies the cult of the pre-destined elect's heresy.

Jesus said...>"If i be lifted up on the Cross, i will draw ALL men, to me'".......so, "all" denies the cult of the pre-destined elect's heresy.

John 3:17 says....>""For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Christ". and this verse denies the cult of the pre-destined elect's heresy...
Click to expand...
Maybe the reason that you are so confused, is that you are studying from the wrong translation of the bible.

John 3:16 does not say "whosoever will believe" which is future tense, but it says "whosoever believeth" which is present tense, so therefore, the "world" referenced is the world of believers, not the whole world of mankind, you therefore have a misunderstanding of what Paul is teaching. As I have told you before, You must consider all of the scriptures in their harmony with themselves.

Eph 1 teaches that those that God has chosen before the foundation of the created world were predetermined to be adopted as his children by Christ redeeming them on the cross.
 
Kidron said:
You can't be born again, unless Christ is on the Cross dying for your sin as this........John 3:16,17.

So, if Jesus died on the Cross in the Old Testament, then your cult is telling you the truth.
If Jesus didn't die on the Cross in the Old Testament then you are in a FALSE situation, aren't you.....
Better solve it., while you still can.
Click to expand...
Christ's death on the cross covers the sins of every one of those that God choose in Eph 1 from Adam to the last one of his elect that will be born again before Jesus comes back to collect his elect from the earth.

This is why I insisted that you must consider "ALL" of the scriptures in harmony with themselves and not ignore the ones that deny your false theology, such as Isa 63:11.
 
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ForestGreenCook said:
Christ's death on the cross covers the sins
Click to expand...

The blood of Jesus covers the sin of every BELIEVING person born after the Cross was raised, and all who lived in the time of Jesus, and a few more.

Once you believe, in Jesus, according to God's will for everyone......God gives you the new birth .. (Born again).
When this happens, you receive the Holy Spirit, as "Christ in you, the hope of Glory". (glory is Heaven)... and not before.
 
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