Sabbath
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Genesis 17
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
If you say, the law of circumcision only applied to the Jews, because it was given to Abraham, then the next logical question is - who did God give the Sabbath law to? Exodus 20 shows us the sabbath law (and other 9 commandments) applies to the same people that circumcision applied to - the Israelites.
Exodus 20
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
So in short, the law requires both circumcision and sabbath keeping, or it doesn't. And as Galatians states that circumcision is not required - as Christ has fulfilled the law - then neither is sabbath keeping required. This is not to say that either practice is bad - just that they aren't required.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
If you say, the law of circumcision only applied to the Jews, because it was given to Abraham, then the next logical question is - who did God give the Sabbath law to? Exodus 20 shows us the sabbath law (and other 9 commandments) applies to the same people that circumcision applied to - the Israelites.
Exodus 20
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
So in short, the law requires both circumcision and sabbath keeping, or it doesn't. And as Galatians states that circumcision is not required - as Christ has fulfilled the law - then neither is sabbath keeping required. This is not to say that either practice is bad - just that they aren't required.
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I clearly stated NKJV. Even KJV says we are not under the Law:
Galatians 3:23-25 (KJV)
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Galatians 3:23-25 (KJV)
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
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Do we choose our beliefs? In each of us exists beliefs in opposition. We nurture and encourage one set of thoughts over another by the conditions we willingly put ourselves into and by the thoughts we encourage and invest in. "The wolf you feed."
Do OT rules apply in the new covenant? It is going to be hard to explore that if you are questioning the infallibility of scripture. First let's take the position that scripture is infallible and see what conclusions we find. Throw away this doubt you have in the words of Paul and look at the whole of the Bible as a body of scripture that exists without contradiction.
Once we accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God, we then can look at which ideas are consistent with scripture. There can exist multiple interpretations that contradict eachother but are each consistent with scripture by themselves.
Between competing ideas we can determine which one we personally find most compelling.
In this case there are two ways ideas are abandoned, either a previously unrealized inconsistency is brought to light (logos) or the intepretation is made uncompelling (pathos).
With this process in mind, how do you differentiate "commands of men" vs "commands of God" if the Bible is the inerrant word of God? Commandments are relative to a covenant (a law), and covenants are for specific groups of people. A person must be part of that covenant for a covenant-commandment to apply. The covenant of the New Testament does repeat many OT rules in some form, but that does not necessarily mean that the specific form and appearance of a commandment in the OT applies to those in the new covenant.
Do OT rules apply in the new covenant? It is going to be hard to explore that if you are questioning the infallibility of scripture. First let's take the position that scripture is infallible and see what conclusions we find. Throw away this doubt you have in the words of Paul and look at the whole of the Bible as a body of scripture that exists without contradiction.
Once we accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God, we then can look at which ideas are consistent with scripture. There can exist multiple interpretations that contradict eachother but are each consistent with scripture by themselves.
Between competing ideas we can determine which one we personally find most compelling.
In this case there are two ways ideas are abandoned, either a previously unrealized inconsistency is brought to light (logos) or the intepretation is made uncompelling (pathos).
With this process in mind, how do you differentiate "commands of men" vs "commands of God" if the Bible is the inerrant word of God? Commandments are relative to a covenant (a law), and covenants are for specific groups of people. A person must be part of that covenant for a covenant-commandment to apply. The covenant of the New Testament does repeat many OT rules in some form, but that does not necessarily mean that the specific form and appearance of a commandment in the OT applies to those in the new covenant.
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I think you covered this, so forgive me if i am redundant.
We are to compare scripture with scripture and allow scripture to clarify, on it's own, the understanding it seeks to purvey.
I think of the writings of the Apostle Paul for instance and how Peter submitted to God by encouraging others to examine and receive Paul's writings
"Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him.
He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing.
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. 2 Peter 3: 15-17
We are to compare scripture with scripture and allow scripture to clarify, on it's own, the understanding it seeks to purvey.
I think of the writings of the Apostle Paul for instance and how Peter submitted to God by encouraging others to examine and receive Paul's writings
"Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him.
He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing.
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. 2 Peter 3: 15-17
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To me, the verses that you posted here seem clear that circumcision (like the sabbath) is a law that applies forever. I just have to research Paul's verses on the topic. His writings are not as direct and I have to come to a conclusion on if some of those are being misinterpreted like many of his other writings that I have previously posted about. Are there any other writings outside of Paul in scripture that you are aware of that seem to support the law of circumcision specifically no longer applying?.... And do you think Peter was just wrong on the topic?
A schoolmaster was a male servant who was responsible for guiding boys into manhood…. basically a role model. So these verses are saying that the law was our guide to The Messiah and now we no longer need that guide, because HE is now our role model. If we follow Him, we will be following the law. We were given a physical example of the written law…. “The word made flesh.”
Unfortunately, people are not following him.
It can apply, but it isn't a requirement. There is a level of relativism as the law that is written in our hearts and minds to guide us to an understanding that is correct for each of us individually. E.g. "[T]o him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean." - Romans 14:14b KJV
If the concept is explicit in scripture through Paul, why do you need a second source?
If the concept is explicit in scripture through Paul, why do you need a second source?
Truth is the most important thing to me, despite how difficult it may be to uncover or how much I may not end up liking what that truth is. I don't have to say that the scriptures are infallible, the scriptures say it for me... The fact that there are penalties for changing the scriptures in Rev 22:18-19 means they can be changed. The fact that there are bibles with more or less verses in some chapters, more or less chapters in the entire book, translations that can mean totally different things, etc. means the bible can not be infallible. One can have that belief if they CHOOSE to, but you have to ignore the facts to do so. Deciding to ignore certain information and only excepting information that protects our pride, egos and the investments of our current views... is what I meant by "choosing our beliefs." It's ultimately our decision to step outside of our comfort zones and echo chambers.
Under the covenant of the OT, the "stranger" was included.... but to be under the protection and receive the blessings of the Father and the covenant, you had to follow His rules (laws). Many of these laws were told for us to carry out thoughout our generations forever. The Father is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow..... nothing new under the sun. What the Messiah said, came from his Father. Having a new lease on your home does not mean the no dog, no drug, or maximum capacity stipulations go away.
Under the covenant of the OT, the "stranger" was included.... but to be under the protection and receive the blessings of the Father and the covenant, you had to follow His rules (laws). Many of these laws were told for us to carry out thoughout our generations forever. The Father is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow..... nothing new under the sun. What the Messiah said, came from his Father. Having a new lease on your home does not mean the no dog, no drug, or maximum capacity stipulations go away.
This goes around and around. The same verses keep coming up.
I asked 2 questions and no one has really answered them, ( i must admit i haven't read every response since).
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Point one...... Prove to me that the seventh day was not made Holy, was not set aside, was not blessed by God at creation.
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Point two...... People keep saying the sabbath is only for the Jews. Where does the Bible say it is only for the Jews? The Sabbath was made for man, all mankind according to verse 27 above.
If the Sabbath was made at creation before Jew or gentile and was made for man why do so many say it is only for the Jews?
The Sabbath was a gift that God gave us at creation. Not a covenant for a group of people. Is the day still holy today?, and is it still for all mankind today?
I asked 2 questions and no one has really answered them, ( i must admit i haven't read every response since).
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Point one...... Prove to me that the seventh day was not made Holy, was not set aside, was not blessed by God at creation.
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Point two...... People keep saying the sabbath is only for the Jews. Where does the Bible say it is only for the Jews? The Sabbath was made for man, all mankind according to verse 27 above.
If the Sabbath was made at creation before Jew or gentile and was made for man why do so many say it is only for the Jews?
The Sabbath was a gift that God gave us at creation. Not a covenant for a group of people. Is the day still holy today?, and is it still for all mankind today?