predestination vs freewill

[Kidron]

Can you please supply the Scripture for man having free will in salvation, please? I would love to read them.

"all that believe, shall be saved".
"for as many as believe".
"to them that believe"
"the work of God is that you BELIEVE"
"for God so loved the world that He gave.........to whosoever will BELIEVE".

To believe is to exercise CHOICE.
To have CHOICE : is the proof of Free Will.

 

[OIC1965]

My answers are not going to change.

......next.

So then you still maintain that “ A LOT” of manuscripts were used to produce the TR, ( post 798) yet only 30 are considered authentic? ( post 767)

 

[OIC1965]

So then you still maintain that “ A LOT” of manuscripts were used to produce the TR, ( post 798) yet only 30 are considered authentic? ( post 767)

Everyone let that sink in…a lot of mss were used to produce the TR that the KJV is based on, (less than 100 though), but only 30 are considered authentic.

Meanwhile, Erasmus actually used 7 or 8 Greek mss…

While according to Kidron, only 3-4 Greek texts are used for the critical text.

ok, then…

 

[rogerg]

God does not choose you for salvaiton.
He offer Christ that you may choose to believe in Christ to then be "Justified by faith", so that God can give you the "new birth". (born again)

No, they must have individually been chosen first by God, and from that, will they receive belief, but
not the reverse

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Jhn 6:38-39, 44-45, 64-67 KJV]
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. ...
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

 

[Kidron]

No, they must have individually been chosen first by God, and from that, will they receive belief, but
not the reverse

There is a cult, that teaches that God chooses some to be born so that they can burn in the lake of Fire.
That is.......They are BORN, with no chance to be saved, and are intended to be born so that they can burn in the lake of Fire.

See that?
That is the devil's lie., as that lie is accusing God of being some sort of cosmic Psychopath who sent His Son to the Cross, so that He can later choose you to burn in the lake of fire, because He wont allow you to trust in Christ.

So, If you find anyone teaching this SATANIC LIE...., then be sure to tell them that they are of the devil.

 

[rogerg]

There is a cult, that teaches that God chooses some to be born so that they can burn in the lake of Fire.

Did you read my post (#864) above? It makes clear those saved were individually chosen by God for such. All who will not be
saved, as were we all, are guilty of the law of sin and death. No one deserves salvation. By rights, we should all
suffer the same fate but only by God's mercy, do some escape.

 

[Kidron]

Did you read my post (#864) above? It makes clear those saved were individually chosen by God .

The reason God saves a person, is because the person trusted in Christ.
This is their Choice.
That's free will.

A person has the free will choice to BELIEVE in Christ, exactly as Adam had the free will to NOT disobey God.
But he CHOSE IT, = free will.

 

[rogerg]

The reason God saves a person, is because the person trusted in Christ.
This is their Choice.
That's free will.

A person has the free will choice to BELIEVE in Christ, exactly as Adam had the free will to NOT disobey God.
But he CHOSE IT, = free will.

Not sure what/how you mean by free will, but no one can come to, and believe in, Christ unless it was FIRST given specifically to them
by God the Father

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[Kidron]

Not sure what/how you mean by free will, but no one can come to, and believe in, Christ unless it was FIRST given specifically to them
by God the Father

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Nice misunderstood verse you misunderstood, that happened before Christ died on the Cross.

Now try this one.

"If I BE lifted up, i will draw ALL MEN to me.""

That is JESUS on the CROSS.

What's He doing up there, rogerg? He's DRAWING ALL MEN TO HIMSELF.

How many is ALL?

Do you understand.........."Jesus". "Drawing"......."ALL MEN"/

You dont seem to understand it yet.
So, when do you think you will?

 

[awelight]

Predestination, and God's Sovereignty over his creation, and his own words, preclude humans having moral agency and free will above and beyond what God has said he has predestined, preplanned, due to his will for us, and due to his zeal for his own glory.


Do we really believe what God says in his word?

“All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them.” Matthew 13:34

“But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…” Mark 4:34
“This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them; but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them.” John 10:6


Why? Jesus tells us.

“And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.
“That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?” Mark 4:10-13

“And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is NOT given.” Matthew 13:10-11


Which is then the meaning behind these words of Jesus:
“Many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:14
Jesus said, “You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.” John 15:16


Acts 13:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.”

Ephesians 1:3-6 and verse 11 “Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. [...]11. In him we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”

Romans 8:28-30 “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Isaiah 29: 15 Woe to those who go to great depths
to hide their plans from the Lord,
who do their work in darkness and think,
“Who sees us? Who will know?” (*free will? Not according to this)
16 You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,
“You did not make me”?
Can the pot say to the potter,
“You know nothing”?


Isaiah 45:9-11 (*For those who think to argue against the scriptures and claim, "God didn't mean it that way!" , take heed:
9.“Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?
10 Woe to the one who says to a father,
‘What have you begotten?’
or to a mother,
‘What have you brought to birth?’
11 “This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?


How do we worship God, claim we read his word, and then argue he didn't actually mean what is said there? Maybe because our deeper consciousness from God knows he hasn't called us? And we, acting as the many (all) who are called, thinking insisting we're of the few he has chosen, predetermined in his Book of Life, makes it so?

Hearken back to Matthew 13:10-11 when reading this. Context is everything.

1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.


How do we know we're his chosen?
When we're dead and at the judgment. Then we will know if we are one of the many. Or one of the few.
Meanwhile, it is given to us to judge, using righteous judgment, when we encounter one another as to which of those two categories we may fall into.
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God.
Matthew 12: 36-37 “But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned”

Hebrews 11

Proverbs 12:6
The words of the wicked lie in wait for blood,
but the mouth of the upright delivers them.

Particularly telling in forums:
1 Peter 3:15 “In your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect”

That was beautifully put together. Gave me great joy to read.

 

[rogerg]

Nice misunderstood verse you misunderstood, that happened before Christ died on the Cross.

Now try this one.

"If I BE lifted up, i will draw ALL MEN to me.""

So God couldn't draw anyone to Christ before the cross?

"men" is a symbolic word used sometimes in the Bible by God to denote those saved, or those to become saved, whereas, beasts represents the unsaved - comparing the spiritual with spiritual

[1Co 15:32 KJV] 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

 

[Kidron]

And we, acting as the many (all) who are called, thinking insisting we're of the few he has chosen, predetermined in his Book of Life, makes it so?
”

Pre-destined Elect heretics always like to pretend that all their family is the "elect".
Have you noticed this, icedaisey ??????

Thats the beauty of their self deception......... which is that......none of the people they care about are born to burn in the lake of fire.

But YOU reader, its 50/50 for you and your family... at best,...... but for these heretics and their family.... the MIRACLE is, ... everyone of them is the "elect".

So, this theological vomit came right out of the Devil's mind, and into the Denomination that he created to teach this theologically depraved trash.

 

[Kidron]

So God couldn't draw anyone to Christ before the cross?
.

God can't draw anyone to the Cross, if Christ is not on it yet.

Im talking about this verse......>"If I be lifted up, I will draw all me to ME".

That's Christ on the Cross dying for ALL.

If you want to discuss something else, we can.
You decide that.
Im good.

 

[rogerg]

God can't draw anyone to the Cross, if Christ is not on it yet.

Im talking about this verse......>"If I be lifted up, I will draw all me to ME".

That's Christ on the Cross dying for ALL.

If you want to discuss something else, we can.
You decide that.
Im good.

[Jhn 4:42 KJV] 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Sounds to me like she, and they, were drawn to Christ, and guess what, Christ had not yet been crucified

 

[OIC1965]

Actually that is God defining how Christian Discipleship is designed to function, once you are "in Christ" having been born again, because you gave God your faith in Christ as He requires so that He can give you the new birth.

You gave God your faith in Christ so He can give you the New Birth? Is that what the great exchange means? What do you have that you were not given?

 

[OIC1965]

[Jhn 4:42 KJV] 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Sounds to me like she, and they, were drawn to Christ, and guess what, Christ had not yet been crucified

Is Kidron saying that the nature of natural man was changed after the cross If man was unable to come to Christ unless drawn before the cross, he is unable to come to Christ unless drawn after the cross as well

The question presented is what is man able to do without being drawn

It is evident that drawing was necessary before the cross and is also necessary now, after the cross.

 

[Kidron]

[Jhn 4:42 KJV] 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Sounds to me like she, and they, were drawn to Christ, and guess what, Christ had not yet been crucified

Lots of people believed on Christ, before He was Crucified = according to the NT., including a Roman Centurian.
Yet, they had no Holy Spirit in them......= Christ didnt come to Live in them, till after the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost.
So, yes.........Mary Magdalene was a believer, and so were Mary and Martha and Lazarus, and so was Peter during the time he denied Christ 3x before Christ was nailed to the Tree.
So, what this means is that you can believe, but you are not born again, until AFTER Christ is on the Cross. As the proof of being born again, is that Christ comes to live in you, and you become a "temple of the Holy Spirit".

That only happened to believers after the Holy Spirit was given in Acts 2.


BUT..

YET..

Christ (who is God) gave the Holy Spirit to the Apostles in : John 20:22 before the day of Pentecost.
Read it.

You'll notice this verse says.....that Christ breathed on them.....

So, that is the same as God doing that to Adam, in Genesis 2:7

 

[rogerg]

It is evident that drawing was necessary before the cross and is also necessary now, after the cross.

Yup agree-- that's what I think too

 

[OIC1965]

Nice misunderstood verse you misunderstood, that happened before Christ died on the Cross.

Now try this one.

"If I BE lifted up, i will draw ALL MEN to me.""

That is JESUS on the CROSS.

What's He doing up there, rogerg? He's DRAWING ALL MEN TO HIMSELF.

How many is ALL?

Do you understand.........."Jesus". "Drawing"......."ALL MEN"/

You dont seem to understand it yet.
So, when do you think you will?

did the cross change the nature and ability of natural man

When Jesus said “ no man can come to me…unless drawn” was He speaking of ability, permission, or both?

 

[rogerg]

Yet, they had no Holy Spirit in them......= Christ didnt come to Live in them, till after the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost.

Christ was/is God, God the Father was/is God, the Holy Spirit was/is God.

I think you might have moved from the original point to something else