Your not butting in and no problem at all, awelight - I really appreciate your input to my question .
Anyway, I'll attempt to respond to the points you've raised and see if my responses can hold water:
"Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;"
I think we may have different concepts of law in mind. I'll cover that difference in my reply to Rom 2:14 following
"Rom 2:14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);"
What I think Rom 2:14 implies, is that there are multiple sets of laws, each set inherent to different groups of people -- Jews, Gentiles, and one that applies to everyone. What that demonstrates ( to me), is that the law the Jews were under, and the law gentiles were under, were/are tied together beneath a parent law, that parent law being the apex of law itself. It is actually law in concept. I'll call it the law of law -- I think the Bible may refer to it as the law of sin and death. Anyway, the law of law is the one I had referred to in my post but I should have made that distinction clear then.
Anyway, I think that Rom 2:14 & 15 substantiates the existence of a law of law when it says "work of the law written in their hearts". For the work of law to exist, a law has to exist - one cannot exist independent of the other. Yet, the verse tells us they had no law. But, if the gentiles did the things of the law by nature, then in their nature must there also have been a law, or what would have driven them to desire the works of law? So, the law of law must have been that which had been "written" into their hearts, since, in the case of the gentiles, there was no other law. As for the Jews, the law of law was manifested in their hearts, demonstrated by their desire to achieve the works of the law.
[Rom 9:31-32 KJV]
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
"Rom 5:13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. But without Law, sin was not legally imputed to anyone's account."
Actually Rom 5:13 is the crux of my point-- that without law sin could not be imputed; without sin imputed there could be
no judgement; without judgement, there could be no penalty.
And I should clarify this too - that I believe Rom 5:13 is referring to the time before Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Sin was not possible for them until eating which brought law - the law of law. At that moment, they were placed under it along with everyone who would ever be born. Because of it, we all, by our nature, pursue the work of the law . That, I believe, is why God is justified in finding guilt in everyone ever born who has not been placed under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
"Rom 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
Thus, when the Law came in, sin was brought to light but sin already had life. (Rom. 5:13 above)"
I don't think it did have life - at least not as far as Adam and Eve (and the rest of us) were concerned - it couldn't have been imputed to anyone without the presence of law. How can sin be imputed if no law was broken? For sure sin was present, but, without law, sin couldn't be imputed. Until Adam and Eve ate, they, and we, were free of it. Rom 5:13 says that sin was present in the world but it doesn't say that it had been or could be imputed - the verses says only that it was present. That is why God warned them not to eat or even touch the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
[1Co 15:56 KJV] 56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
Having read this, you'll probably want to call 9-1-1 on me - if so, I'll understand.
I know I didn't cover everything and I'm not sure I actually understand it all myself, and what I did cover is probably lacking
and doesn't make a lot of sense, but I thought I'd give it a shot anyway. Also as I reread, I'll probably need to revise it somewhat.
If I can clarify anything, of if you find errors, please let me know.
Thanks for reading.
Thank you for your gracious words.
I think I see what you are trying to get at but there are a few points I would like you to consider. Let me see if I can dissect them in your post.
As to the law written in the heart, of Rom. 2:14,15, it is a law that God has placed in every person's heart. This goes back to Rom. 1:19, and should be understood as, every person has a basic knowledge of right and wrong. Everyone knows it is wrong to murder another or to steal from another, for example. You don't need a published law to understand this principle. However, these guiding principles are not the Law of God. Some of the Gentile principles of law might conform to God's Laws but others did not. As such, they were a law unto themselves and not God's designated receivers of the Law.
As to the subject of sin, Rom. 5:13, the verse clearly states that "sin" was in the world. The principle of sin or the nature of sin was at work, but without The Law (read Ten Commandments - God's Holy Eternal Law), sin was not being recognized or imputed as sin. We know "imputation" is a legal term, so no ones sin was being legally counted unto the them.
As far as judgement is concerned, without Law, a person was not being judged for breaking the Law but for their complicit association in Adam's fall. Adam stood as mankind's Federal Head - whatever he would do, we all would do.
Before the Flood, Scripture says, that everyone was doing what was right in their own eyes. The consequence of there being no Divine Standard. However, because of their fallen nature and their actions grieving the Holiness of God, the world was Judged. Except Noah and the seven with him - God's chosen remnant. The eight safely rode above the judgement of God upon the earth, in the Ark of Safety. (This should remind the believer, of the promise of the "Rapture" of Christ's church, which will ride safely above the Judgement in Heaven.)
Now as to when did this sin principle enter into the world? Some say at the time of the Earth's renewal for man because the Devil and his fallen angels were present when God recreated the Earth. Others would say, that it began with Adam and Eve. But that is a discussion for another time. What we know for sure is, that Adam was created in an "upright" condition before God and Adam walked with God in the Garden. A close knit intimate relationship with God.
But Adam and Eve were not without Law. There was one Law laid down before the eyes and ears of Adam:
Gen 2:16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Adam passed this on to Eve, as she did not exist at the time.
We know that Eve sinned first because she was beguiled by the Serpent. Then she was the agent of Adam's sin. Then when Adam fell, all of mankind fell in him.
They broke the only Law God had given them. Law = Commandment = Ordinance = Law. Any breach of God's will for man is the same as breaking the Law. Their sin was made manifest, by the breach of this Commandment and they hid themselves from God. Convicted in their own consciences and now fallen from their original uprightness. They feared God's presents and possible retribution. Now, instead of being clothed in naked purity and uprightness (Gen, 2:25), they were naked and ashamed. God had to impart to them a new righteousness. A symbol and foreshadowing of Christ's Person and Work. (Gen. 3:21)
Therefore sin was in the world but was not recognized or imputed as sin until the Law came in along side. The principle of Sin is a mysterious and dark thing. It was very much alive in the Tempter, that ole' Serpent and spread to man. What was Lucifer's sinful desire - to be like God. What was man's sinful desire - to be like God. In both cases, neither was satisfied with their created station. Does this sound familiar to you? Does it remind you of those who say, they have the right to choose Christ if they so desire, even if it is against their nature or the ones who believe that God never interferes with man's free will? Are they not setting themselves up as equals to God? So you see, we come full circle, right back to the Garden of Eden.
Thanks again for your kind words. May God keep you and bless you.
