predestination vs freewill

[Kidron]

Well, I have had some formal training in Greek ( though I do not claim to be a scholar).

Then i guess that unless you have mastered the art, you can't be classified as a master.

Lots of partial masters parading about as masters in the body of Christ, and the devil loves this.
Why?
Because where there is no mastery, there is only opinion pretending to be a master.
This is what causes "new bibles" and "denominations" to show up.

Satan is the original "hath God said" opinion teacher.

 

[OIC1965]

It is quite obvious that you have come into this thread for the sole purpose of stirring up arguments and have no desire to learn anything. Take your Arminian beliefs and please go away.

I used to be an Arminian, and Arminians believe in predestination and foreknowledge ( though they define them differently than Calvinists and others). I don’t know how people say predestination is not in the Bible when it is right there in black and white print.

 

[OIC1965]

Then i guess that unless you have mastered the art, you can't be classified as a master.

Lots of partial masters parading about as masters in the body of Christ, and the devil loves this.
Why?
Because where there is no mastery, there is only opinion pretending to be a master.
This is what causes "new bibles" and "denominations" to show up.

Satan is the original "hath God said" opinion teacher.

You don’t have to be a master to know what proorizo means or to know it is in the Bible.

Which Greek text of Romans 8:29-30 does not have this word?

 

[awelight]

I am not a Calvinist, but I can assure you, (having studied it very closely) that Calvinists believe in justification by faith. They hold strongly to sola Fidei.

I don’t think you understand Calvinism. I used to think similar to how you think. I realized that I had misrepresented them. I don’t agree on all points with Calvinism, but you are creating a caricature.

Many of the points of Calvinism I too believe. However, John Calvin was just a man who published his findings. This truth of how Salvation works and the condition of fallen man, is not Calvin's exclusively. Martin Luther, added to it in his book Bondage of the Will. He started the Lutheran religion but God knows, I don't agree with a lot of what they teach.

These men, by God's grace, helped bring things to light but they do not own them. It is the responsibility of every reader and every listener to search the Scriptures to see if it is so.

Personally, I take exception with the Calvinist and the Reformers, when it comes down to teaching that Justification is by our faith. The Scriptures teach that Justification before God, was out of the Faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Faithful to carry out the Father's purpose and Faithfully working out Justification for the Elect whom the Father gave to Him.

 

[OIC1965]

Then i guess that unless you have mastered the art, you can't be classified as a master.

Lots of partial masters parading about as masters in the body of Christ, and the devil loves this.
Why?
Because where there is no mastery, there is only opinion pretending to be a master.
This is what causes "new bibles" and "denominations" to show up.

Satan is the original "hath God said" opinion teacher.

Whhich English translation do you prefer and how does Romans 8:29 read in that translation?

 

[Kidron]

I am not a Calvinist, but I can assure you, (having studied it very closely) that Calvinists believe in justification by faith. They hold strongly to sola Fidei.

I don’t think you understand Calvinism. I used to think similar to how you think. I realized that I had misrepresented them. I don’t agree on all points with Calvinism, but you are creating a caricature.

Not at all.
I have simply defined their deceit for you.

God does not choose you to be born again.
He dies for you, and offers you this blood and death as a Gift...."the Gift of Salvation".
God's Gifts are given, they are not forced.

And what you do with that Gift of Salvation that God offered from the Cross to the World, 2000 yrs ago, determines what happens to you after you die.
So, use your freewill.....wisely.

Now......notice this partial verse. """chosen In HIM".""
You know that one, as all calvinists live on that one.
That is the predestined elect theology's bread and butter and red meat.

What they dont understand is this part...."in Him".
See that part? That is why you are >chosen. You are chosen......."IN HIM".
And what does it mean to be "in Him"?
Well, who is the "HIM"?, and what is the "IN"?
See that? You have to be IN HIM, to be .........Chosen.

Its this...."In Christ"......thats the "Him".
And how do you get IN Christ?

Jesus said....>"you must be born again"......as when you are born again, you become "one with God", which is to be "in Christ", as Christ is God...

So, all who are <IN HIM>......are the born again.... who have become "IN CHRIST: which is to be "chosen".
God does not Choose that for you.
You choose that when you hear the Gospel and :"" Faith comes by hearing"""" , and you BELIEVE.
See that ? See the BELIEVING? That is freewill in operation.
"""faith (believing) is counted as Righteousness"""", and God gives you the New Birth, and you become a New Creation..... ""IN CHRIST.""

There is your "in HIM"< that finds you "chosen".

to be chosen, you must believe and be born again, and then you are "IN HIM" = chosen.

 

[awelight]

Are you translating from the newer Nestle, or from the older one, before it was changed and altered into the new ??

From the third edition. printed in 1974. However I back that up with the Greek copy of the Textus Receptus and it's variant readings.

 

[OIC1965]

Many of the points of Calvinism I too believe. However, John Calvin was just a man who published his findings. This truth of how Salvation works and the condition of fallen man, is not Calvin's exclusively. Martin Luther, added to it in his book Bondage of the Will. He started the Lutheran religion but God knows, I don't agree with a lot of what they teach.

These men, by God's grace, helped bring things to light but they do not own them. It is the responsibility of every reader and every listener to search the Scriptures to see if it is so.

Personally, I take exception with the Calvinist and the Reformers, when it comes down to teaching that Justification is by our faith. The Scriptures teach that Justification before God, was out of the Faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Faithful to carry out the Father's purpose and Faithfully working out Justification for the Elect whom the Father gave to Him.

I fully agree with the statement that Christ’s righteousness is the basis for our justification. Yet Romans 3:22 teaches a righteousness of God through faith for all who believe. So Christ is the only basis and grounds for being righteous with God, but that righteousness is applied to all who believe.

 

[awelight]

Not at all.
I have simply defined their deceit for you.

God does not choose you to be born again.
He dies for you, and offers you this blood and death as a Gift...."the Gift of Salvation".
God's Gifts are given, they are not forced.

And what you do with that Gift of Salvation that God offered from the Cross to the World, 2000 yrs ago, determines what happens to you after you die.
So, use your freewill.....wisely.

Now......notice this partial verse. """chosen In HIM".""
You know that one, as all calvinists live on that one.
That is the predestined elect theology's bread and butter and red meat.

What they dont understand is this part...."in Him".
See that part? That is why you are >chosen. You are chosen......."IN HIM".
And what does it mean to be "in Him"?
Well, who is the "HIM"?, and what is the "IN"?
See that? You have to be IN HIM, to be .........Chosen.

Its this...."In Christ"......thats the "Him".
And how do you get IN Christ?

Jesus said....>"you must be born again"......as when you are born again, you become "one with God", which is to be "in Christ", as Christ is God...

So, all who are <IN HIM>......are the born again.... who have become "IN CHRIST: which is to be "chosen".
God does not Choose that for you.
You choose that when you hear the Gospel and :"" Faith comes by hearing"""" , and you BELIEVE.
See that ? See the BELIEVING? That is freewill in operation.
"""faith (believing) is counted as Righteousness"""", and God gives you the New Birth, and you become a New Creation..... ""IN CHRIST.""

There is your "in HIM"< that finds you "chosen".

to be chosen, you must believe and be born again, and then you are "IN HIM" = chosen.

If you are really interested in learning something or at least considering them - I would suggest you go back to the beginning of the thread. I and others have laid down extensive arguments to support our views. I certainly invite you too look over mine. I discuss in great detail why a fallen sinner cannot come to Christ unless God first moves toward and upon the sinner.

 

[OIC1965]

Not at all.
I have simply defined their deceit for you.

God does not choose you to be born again.
He dies for you, and offers you this blood and death as a Gift...."the Gift of Salvation".
God's Gifts are given, they are not forced.

And what you do with that Gift of Salvation that God offered from the Cross to the World, 2000 yrs ago, determines what happens to you after you die.
So, use your freewill.....wisely.

Now......notice this partial verse. """chosen In HIM".""
You know that one, as all calvinists live on that one.
That is the predestined elect theology's bread and butter and red meat.

What they dont understand is this part...."in Him".
See that part? That is why you are >chosen. You are chosen......."IN HIM".
And what does it mean to be "in Him"?
Well, who is the "HIM"?, and what is the "IN"?
See that? You have to be IN HIM, to be .........Chosen.

Its this...."In Christ"......thats the "Him".
And how do you get IN Christ?

Jesus said....>"you must be born again"......as when you are born again, you become "one with God", which is to be "in Christ", as Christ is God...

So, all who are <IN HIM>......are the born again.... who have become "IN CHRIST: which is to be "chosen".
God does not Choose that for you.
You choose that when you hear the Gospel and :"" Faith comes by hearing"""" , and you BELIEVE.
See that ? See the BELIEVING? That is freewill in operation.
"""faith (believing) is counted as Righteousness"""", and God gives you the New Birth, and you become a New Creation..... ""IN CHRIST.""

There is your "in HIM"< that finds you "chosen".

to be chosen, you must believe and be born again, and then you are "IN HIM" = chosen.

When were we chosen, according to Ephesians 1:5?

And what are the various ways the preposition “in” used in the scriptures?

 

[OIC1965]

If you are really interested in learning something or at least considering them - I would suggest you go back to the beginning of the thread. I and others have laid down extensive arguments to support our views. I certainly invite you too look over mine. I discuss in great detail why a fallen sinner cannot come to Christ unless God first moves toward and upon the sinner.

Amen

 

[14meatcc]

I do not believe that God would hinge his glory on the decision of a filthy sin ridden finite being.

 

[awelight]

I fully agree with the statement that Christ’s righteousness is the basis for our justification. Yet Romans 3:22 teaches a righteousness of God through faith for all who believe. So Christ is the only basis and grounds for being righteous with God, but that righteousness is applied to all who believe.

Just to answer that verse directly would take a good part of Scripture. But I submit to begin with, this verse is badly translated and for some reason has been excepted this way for centuries. In my own translation this verse is rendered this way.:

Rom 3:22 even a righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ towards the ones who are believing; for there is no distinction;

Note verse 21 is magnifying Christ's righteousness not our faith:

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

also verses 23 and 24 flow better with verse 22 being properly translated.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Now these verses clearly magnify Christ and God in Salvation and take the human element out of the equation. It is Christ's righteousness, His faithfulness, and justification by his grace.

Does this not harmonize with all Scripture?

 

[inukubo]

God does not choose you to be born again.
He dies for you, and offers you this blood and death as a Gift...."the Gift of Salvation".
God's Gifts are given, they are not forced.

So life is not a gift of God?

 

[14meatcc]

Believing is in itself a revelation given to you by God.
There are two types of Christians. Those that believe and are saved. And those that believe they are saved.
I was ecstatic when God assured me he is
It's not a rational thought process to believe, but a revelation of surety given by God.

 

[awelight]

Believing is in itself a revelation given to you by God.
There are two types of Christians. Those that believe and are saved. And those that believe they are saved.
I was ecstatic when God assured me he is
It's not a rational thought process to believe, but a revelation of surety given by God.

There are not two types of Christians. One group are true Christians the other Group needs to take their sign down. This later group is guilty of using God's name in vain. Which is not cursing but using God's name in a useless manner.

It is a rational thought process to believe... it is what we believe that makes the difference. It is not rational to believe that a fallen creature, who is darkness would choose to come to the light and have his/her sins exposed. It is not rational to believe that a fallen creature has the ability or the want to choose Christ. He/she may have the ability to choose a Christ but not the one of Holy Scripture. That Christ they want nothing to do with. (Mat 6:23, John 3:19, 2 Cor 6:14, Col 1:13)

John_1:5 And the light shined into the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.
Rom 3:11 There is none that is understanding, There is none that is seeking after God

The Christ of Holy Scripture, is Sovereign and the author and finisher of Salvation. He is the object of Salvation and the one who makes it possible. God must enable the light to shine into a dead persons heart or there is no desire to go to the Light.

 

[OIC1965]

Just to answer that verse directly would take a good part of Scripture. But I submit to begin with, this verse is badly translated and for some reason has been excepted this way for centuries. In my own translation this verse is rendered this way.:

Rom 3:22 even a righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ towards the ones who are believing; for there is no distinction;

Note verse 21 is magnifying Christ's righteousness not our faith:

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

also verses 23 and 24 flow better with verse 22 being properly translated.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Now these verses clearly magnify Christ and God in Salvation and take the human element out of the equation. It is Christ's righteousness, His faithfulness, and justification by his grace.

Does this not harmonize with all Scripture?

Yes, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Christ Jesus is a valid interpretation, but the righteousness of God is still unto all and upon all that believe on Him

Romans 4:3-5 expands on this

Yet, it is true that only Christ’s righteousness saves. Only His work has merit. So we are in agreement on the main point.

 

[rogerg]

Yes, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Christ Jesus is a valid interpretation, but the righteousness of God is still unto all and upon all that believe on Him

But we believe on Him because His faithfulness gives to us our faith

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[OIC1965]

But we believe on Him because His faithfulness gives to us our faith

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I agree

 

[justpassinthrough]

No one can "obey" until they become saved/born-again

No one can be born again, saved unless they obey. This where grace comes in; the God given ability granted to us unmerited by God to do what we can not do without it.

In short, grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace.


We must obey the Gospel in order to be saved.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:16-17


For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17


As we see here, the scripture makes a distinction between, the ”house of God” and those who do not obey the Gospel, (the unsaved).


Again, we are born again by obeying the Gospel truth, through the power of the Spirit.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

• you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

That’s why Paul says the Gospel, is the power of God unto salvation.


Only those who obey receive the Holy Spirt.


And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Acts 5:32

• so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

JPT