Neither James (the Lord’s brother), Barnabas, Timothy or Silvanus were counted among The Twelve...

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Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#1
..although they were clearly apostles…

(Optional title: "Let's stop picking on Matthias")

Gal 1:19 “But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother.”
Acts 15: He presides over the apostolic and elder council in Jerusalem

Acts 14:11-15a “When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them.
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: “Friends, why are you doing this?


1 Thessalonians (My footnotes are inserted within () where you see them.)
1:1 “Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, (This denotes who is writing the letter)
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ…”
1:2 “We
(Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers…”
1:5 “For our
(Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake."
2:4 “But as we
(Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts."
2:6 “Nor did we
(Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) seek glory from men, either from you or from others, we (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) might have made demands as apostles of Christ."

The scriptures are clear: James, Silvanus Timothy, and Barnabas were apostles.

The qualifications to be numbered among The Twelve were clearly laid out by Peter in Acts.
Acts 1:21-22 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

1st qualification: “men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John”
2nd qualification; “..to that day when He was taken up from us…” So, he also had to witness Jesus’ ascension.

Now, the last line is key “..one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

The person chosen must become a witness, with the other eleven, of His resurrection. And, just to be clear, Peter declares the type of ministry the twelfth one will undertake with the other eleven: "And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”

There are a couple questions that arise out of this: Why must there be twelve? I mean, apostles seemed to be in short supply back then. Why not stack the deck with as many as you could? Why not allow Justus/Barsabas AND Mathias into the ranks? If apostles were so important, the more you have the better off you are, or so it would seem.

Additionally, why was 11 not sufficient? Does God not like prime numbers? Why go through all the trouble choosing another if you already have 11? Did Peter read Revelation 21:14 and realize they were one short? (Pro-tip: “No”) These are the obvious questions for anyone who reads the scriptures. I think, as much as we are encouraged to study the scriptures, we take a lot of teachings at face value. We agree and move on without asking important questions like “Why?” or finding out how certain ideas became part of our doctrine. This, of course, is another discussion altogether.

Obviously, the number “12” was the issue of importance. So, it’s important to know why.

According to the Jewish Beth Din, their legal system in the days of Jesus, the days of the apostles; when twelve witnesses testified to a matter, it was conclusively presumed to be true. As an aside, it’s where, in American jurisprudence and in English common law, we get a jury of twelve. That is its history. Twelve witnesses testifying to a matter allowed for there to be a conclusive presumption that the issue in controversy was true. Now, we see the twelve on the day of Pentecost functioning as witnesses and that's what they said. They said (to paraphrase), "This Jesus you took, crucified Him with your wicked hands, and God raised Him from the dead whereof we, The Twelve,” (Peter stood up with the other eleven), “we are all witnesses."

The two criteria set forth by Peter were designed to select one more person to fill out the required quotient of twelve witnesses. That's why it was not eleven and that's why it wasn't thirteen, because the work was to bring the gospel, first, to the Jews on the day of Pentecost and that required twelve. Peter knew it and of course the Holy Spirit knew it. And when Judas fell, the Holy Spirit made provision, by Peter's lots, for Matthias to replace Judas.

Now what of Revelation 21:14? “Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Simple, there were only 12 Apostles of the Lamb: the witnesses, the apostles, who first preached the gospel in the earth. Matthias was one of them; James (the Lord’s brother), Barnabas, Timothy and Silvanus were not. And neither was Paul. None of the Gentile apostles met the criteria.

So, now that it is clear that there were other apostles other than the 12, other questions arise: What for? What is the purpose of the apostle, or, more precisely, why did God give the apostolic gift to men? What is its function in the Body of Christ? And are there apostles even today? I will continue this teaching and answer these questions another time.

Grace and Peace,
Aaron56
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#2
Paul implied he was not one of the 12 in I Corinthians 15 when he wrote that Jesus appeared to the 12 before appearing to Him.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#3
Paul implied he was not one of the 12 in I Corinthians 15 when he wrote that Jesus appeared to the 12 before appearing to Him.
Paul was an apostle. He was taught personally for three years in Egypt, and that was not with flesh and blood. If he had been taught my men he would not be considered an apostle.

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Galatains 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#4
Paul was an apostle. He was taught personally for three years in Egypt, and that was not with flesh and blood. If he had been taught my men he would not be considered an apostle.

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Galatains 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ
Of course. But he was not one of The Twelve.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#5
Of course. But he was not one of The Twelve.
That is amazing. I do not see any mention of Paul in the OT prophets, but I hae learned a lot about Paul from Paul's writings.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#6
Paul was an apostle. He was taught personally for three years in Egypt, and that was not with flesh and blood. If he had been taught my men he would not be considered an apostle.

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Galatains 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ
Yes, Paul was an apostle, but he did not count himself among the twelve, nor did the 12, who also accepted Matthias as member of the twelve.

Acts 14:4 and 14 call Barnabas and Saul (Paul) 'apostles.'
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#7
That is amazing. I do not see any mention of Paul in the OT prophets, but I hae learned a lot about Paul from Paul's writings.
Do you know of any Old Testament prophecies that mention Bartholemew or Simon Zealotes?
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#8
That is amazing. I do not see any mention of Paul in the OT prophets, but I hae learned a lot about Paul from Paul's writings.
The Twelve = The Twelve Apostles of the Lamb
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#10
Do you know of any Old Testament prophecies that mention Bartholemew or Simon Zealotes?
Yes, but not by name, just as Johan the Baptizer is mentioned to come but not by name. Those men of renown mentioned in Zachariah Chapter 3.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#11
This is a reference to "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:14 KJV)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#12
Paul was hand picked by Jesus, just as were the other eleven.

Matthias? Chosen by the others against Jesus' instruction for them to wait...
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#13

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#14
The 12 did not testify until they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Without Matthias, there could not have been a legally binding testimony under the current Jewish Law.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#15
Of course. But he was not one of The Twelve.
The scriptures that I quoted says that he was one of the 12. He took the lace of Judas. Scripture tells us he was taught be Jesus not men as apostles had to be.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#16
This is a reference to "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:14 KJV)
OK. I have always kekpt that in mind in my studies. The foundations are the twelve Apostles, and the doors have the names of the Tribes.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#17
The scriptures that I quoted says that he was one of the 12. He took the lace of Judas. Scripture tells us he was taught be Jesus not men as apostles had to be.
No it does not. I already explained why 12 witnesses were necessary on the Day of Pentecost. An apostle did not become an apostle because of man. Here is where Paul became an apostle: Acts 13:2 "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

The "they" referenced here is prophets and teachers. Paul was one of them until the Lord separated out both he and Barnabas to become apostles. Apostle simply means "sent one". Here, Paul was sent out. Because of that he became an apostle as did Barnabas. The Lord always sends out the apostles. This is usually validated by the laying on of hands (another subject).
 
Jan 14, 2021
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#18
Paul implied he was not one of the 12 in I Corinthians 15 when he wrote that Jesus appeared to the 12 before appearing to Him.
An interesting question. After Judas died, who was his replacement among the 12?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#20
Paul was hand picked by Jesus, just as were the other eleven.

Matthias? Chosen by the others against Jesus' instruction for them to wait...
When did Jesus say to wait to appoint a twelfth apostle? I am not familiar with any scripture that says that.