For the unaware, the human body will be replaced with one that is indestructible. The difference between sheep and goats is what? Not much. The resurrected body is what? I cor 15
Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?
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And yet, Jesus said "eternal punishment, torture" not wiped out of existence.
The proof texts that used the word destroyed or anything like that were about physical body dying in this life.
Revelation 20:10 is specifically for three persons: beast, false prophet, and the devil. It isn't suitable to apply to all unsaved people.
Rev 20:10
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
There's no verse that says the masses of rank and file unsaved people are tormented forever.
Revelation 20:13-15 speaks of everyone else. Everyone else receives a second death, meaning they are destroyed:
Rev. 20:13-15
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I already gave this verse... and it is only those who are in Christ who put on incorruption, and immortality.
The rest are destroyed and perish in the second death.
God is also Just. The argument you used came from Unitarians to argue that everyone goes to Heaven.
We can not isolate just one characteristic of God from his other attributes.
Ezekiel 18:31-32
Contemporary English Version
31 Give up your evil ways and start thinking pure thoughts. And be faithful to me! Do you really want to be put to death for your sins? 32 I, the Lord God, don’t want to see that happen to anyone. So stop sinning and live!
This reflects God is Love, but he is just too. And, wants people to repent rather than go to Hell.
The lake of fire is reserved for satan and his angels and they will be tormented forever but sinners will also have their part in the lake of fire. And the false prophet who will be tormented forever is also there. He could be human.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 KJV
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 KJV
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Here only the Devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever. The beast and false prophet are there but that isn't directly said to also apply to them but either way we can't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.
Another example:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.
And look at how many scriptures refute the idea of eternal life in hell fire:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.
"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.
"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.
"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.
"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.
"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20
"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1
"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28
"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13
"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20
Judgment is a decision to reward or punish someone. The judgement/punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 21:8), and that judgement/punishment is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2). So, eternal punishment is an eternal death.
You added the word torture there to Jesus' quote. That's a huge no no when talking about the Bible. Never add to or take away from scripture.
And yet Jesus said only the righteous obtain Eternal Life. Living forever in hell is eternal life. Jesus confirms that living forever in hell is absolutely not a possibility for unrighteousness people.
So what did Jesus mean? Based off of His teachings, the unrighteous are destroyed, both body and soul, in hell.
Hell is an eternal flame. The eternal punishment is conclusively a reference to death because death is eternal and a punishment.
They do not live forever in hell.
So, do you think that love is God's only attribute? Is He also not a God of righteousness and justice. People being punished in the lake of fire is not hatred but is the punishment for sin against a Holy God. The facts are that we have scripture after scripture that makes known that condemnation is eternal, i.e. never ending in lake of fire, which you and others continue to ignore. There is no scripture that says that those who are cast into the lake of fire are annihilated, nor does it say that it is temporary. In fact, it states the opposite with words like being tormented day and night, forever and ever, everlasting, etc.
God says that "He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked." However, the lake of fire is the punishment that He has established.
O
Oblio
Guest
Eternal punishment of fire verses punishment of eternal fire. Perish = cease to exist. I know God...I know His character. Eternal punishment goes against it. God knows the end from the beginning. If He made all the people who would not be saved, knowing they would suffer agony forever, how would that not make Him worse than all of the tyrants and the enemy put together. The threat of eternal punishment is used to control people. He is better than we think He is. Love conquers all!
The way you are using strong's is a word study fallacy.
Literal Standard Version
And these will go away into continuous punishment, but the righteous into continuous life.”
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And these will go into eternal torture, and the righteous into eternal life.”
Lamsa Bible
And these shall go into everlasting torment, and the righteous into eternal life.
Geneva Bible of 1587
And these shall goe into euerlasting paine, and the righteous into life eternall.
Bishops' Bible of 1568
And these shall go into euerlastyng payne: the ryghteous into lyfe eternall.
Coverdale Bible of 1535
And these shal go in to euerlastinge payne, but the righteous in to euerlastinge life.
Tyndale Bible of 1526
And these shall go into everlastinge payne: And the righteous into lyfe eternall.
Matthew 25:46
New Matthew Bible
46 And these shall go into everlasting pain, but the righteous into life eternal.
2851. kolasis ►
Strong's Concordance
kolasis: correction
Original Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Definition: correction
Usage: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2851 kólasis (from kolaphos, "a buffeting, a blow") – properly, punishment that "fits" (matches) the one punished (R. Trench); torment from living in the dread of upcoming judgment from shirking one's duty (cf. WS at 1 Jn 4:18).
Perfected love casts out tormenting fear (2851 /kólasis)
1 Jn 4:17,18: "17By this, love is perfected [brought to its higher stages] with us, so that we may continuously have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment [2851 /kólasis, "torment"], and the one who fears is not perfected in love."
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from kolazó
Definition
correction
NASB Translation
punishment (2).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2851: κόλασις
κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (κολάζω), correction, punishment, penalty: Matthew 25:46; κόλασιν ἔχει,brings with it or has connected with it the thought of punishment, 1 John 4:18. (Ezekiel 14:3f, etc.; 2 Macc. 4:38; 4 Macc. 8:8; Wis. 11:14 Wis. 16:24, etc.; Plato, Aristotle, Diodorus 1, 77 (9); 4, 44 (3); Aelian v. h. 7, 15; others.) [SYNONYMS: κόλασις, τιμωρία: the noted definition of Aristotle, which distinguishes κόλασις from τιμωρία as that which (is disciplinary and) has reference to him who suffers, while the latter (is penal and) has reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts, may be found in his rhet. 1, 10, 17; cf. Cope, Introduction to Aristotle, Rhet., p. 232. To much the same effect, Plato, Protag. 324 a. and following, also deff. 416. But, as in other cases, usage (especially the later) does not always recognize the distinction; see e. g. Philo de legat. ad Gaium § 1 at the end; fragment ex Eusebius prepos. evang. 8, 13 (Mang. 2:641); de vita Moys. 1:16 at the end; Plato de sera num. vind. §§ 9, 11, etc. Plutarch (ibid. § 25 under the end) uses κολάζομαι of those undergoing the penalties of the other world (cf. Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 8; Clement of Rome, 2 Cor. 6, 7 [ET]; Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 43; 2, 8; Test xii. Patr., test. Reub. 5; test. Levi 4, etc.; Martyr. Polycarp, 2, 3 [ET]; 11, 2 [ET]; Ignatius ad Rom. 5, 3 [ET]; Martyr Ignatius vat. 5 etc.). See Trench, Synonyms, § vii.; McClellan, New Testament, vol. i., margin references on Matt. as above; Bartlett, Life and Death Eternal. Note G.; C. F. Hudson, Debt and Grace, p. 188ff; Schmidt, chapter 167, 2f.]
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
punishment, torment.
From kolazo; penal infliction -- punishment, torment.
tor·ment
noun
/ˈtôrment/
severe physical or mental suffering.
"their deaths have left both families in torment"
verb
/tôrˈment/
cause to experience severe mental or physical suffering.
"he was tormented by jealousy"
tor·ture
/ˈtôrCHər/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the action or practice of inflicting severe pain or suffering on someone as a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something.
"the torture of political prisoners"
Similar:
infliction of pain
abuse
torment
ill treatment
maltreatment
harsh treatment
punishment
persecution
verb
inflict severe pain or suffering on.
"most of the victims had been brutally tortured"
pun·ish·ment
/ˈpəniSHmənt/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.
"crime demands just punishment"
Similar:
penalizing
punishing
disciplining
retribution
damnation
chastising
chastisement
the penalty inflicted.
plural noun: punishments
"she assisted her husband to escape punishment for the crime"
Similar:
penalty
discipline
correction
retribution
penance
sentence
reward
one's just deserts
medicine
the price
the rap
requital
vengeance
justice
judgment
sanction
comeuppance
jankers
chastisement
INFORMAL
rough treatment or handling inflicted on or suffered by a person or thing.
"your machine can take a fair amount of punishment before falling to pieces"
My disagreement is not against the Holy Spirit it is about disagreeing with your opinion.
28 “I want you to know that people can be forgiven for all the sinful things they do. They can even be forgiven for the bad things they say against God. 29 But anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. They will always be guilty of that sin.”
30 Jesus said this because the teachers of the law had accused him of having an evil spirit inside him.
I never claimed that Jesus was possessed by a demon, and I don't think you have made such a claim neither.
But thank you for bringing up an understanding of the Blasphemy of the HS I had not seen before.
And, the other quotes on the Second Death shows that it is continuous punishment of living creatures. Don't miss that friend.
One verse defines the second death as eternal punishment. The other verse tells us that the unsaved are also put into that state, thus all groups discussed in those texts defines who is involved in the eternal torture, torment, punishment.
I forget is the false prophet a person?
I disagree. Other verses point to the fact that it is eternal death, unlike the first death. You say, oh, but the verse says eternal punishment, as if death were not a punishment. Death is the punishment promised in a multitude of ways over and over and over and over and over and over and over again throughout Scripture, from beginning to end, starting in Genesis.
If spirits will cease to exist why is there a need for an eternal fire? What is the use of an eternal fire if there is nothing to burn? Spiritual death is being separated from God forever but may not mean complete annihilation. The verse clearly said they will be tormented day and night forever.
GOD AND TRINITY
- Do you affirm or deny that there is only one eternal God in all existence, all time, and in all places?
- Do you affirm or deny that the Christian God is the one and only, necessary, Trinitarian Being who consists of three eternal, distinct, and simultaneous persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
- For more information, see the CARM article, What is the Trinity?
- Do you affirm or deny that the Christian God consists of one person who manifested in different forms?
- If you deny the Christian Trinity view of God, what view of God do you hold?
- Do you affirm or deny that the Trinitarian God, is timeless?
- If you affirm that the Trinitarian God is timeless, can you explain what it means for God to be timeless – with Scripture, if possible?
- Do you affirm or deny that the second person of the Trinity, the Word, became flesh in the single person of Jesus?
- Do you affirm or deny that the single person of Jesus, according to Scripture, exhibited attributes of self-awareness, awareness of others, could reason, speak, think, etc., thereby demonstrating the attributes of personhood?
- Do you affirm or deny the doctrine of the hypostatic union, which states that the one person of Jesus presently has two distinct and simultaneous natures, the divine and the human?
- For more information, see the CARM article What is the hypostatic union?
- Do you affirm or deny the doctrine of the communicatio idiomatum, which states that the attributes of both natures of Jesus (human and divine) are ascribed to the single person of Jesus?
- For clarification, the coummicatio idiomatum means that the attributes of both natures were attributed to the single person of Christ. Jesus, the single person said, “I am thirsty,” (John 19:28), claiming the attributes of human nature, and, “I am with you always even to the end of the earth,” (Matt. 28:20), claiming attributes of his divine nature. For more information, see the CARM article, Communicatio Idiomatum.
- Do you affirm or deny that a human person is a single unity that cannot be broken into physical and spiritual parts?
- Do you affirm or deny physicalism regarding human nature?
- By physicalism is meant the idea that the physical brain produces the mind, that the mind is a function of the physical brain.
- Do you affirm or deny physicalism regarding human nature so that when the physical brain dies physically, the human soul ceases to exist?
- Do you affirm or deny physicalism regarding human nature so that when the physical brain dies, the human mind/soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness?
- Do you affirm or deny physicalism regarding human nature so that when the physical brain dies, the human mind/soul continues to exist but in a state of unconsciousness?
- Do you affirm or deny mind/body dualism?
- By mind-body dualism is meant that the soul is different than the physical brain and that upon the death of the person, the soul continues to exist apart from the death of the physical brain.
- Do you affirm or deny soul sleep?
- By soul-sleep is meant that the human soul continues to exist after the person’s physical death but is unconscious and inactive.
- Do you affirm or deny that upon a person’s physical death, his soul (spirit) returns to God?
- Do you affirm or deny that upon death, if the soul (spirit) returns to God, that the human person ceases to exist?
- Do you affirm or deny that upon death, if the soul (spirit) returns to God, does that mean the person has lost his personal identity?
- Do you affirm or deny that upon death, if the soul (spirit) returns to God, that it means the soul is part of God’s personhood?
- Do you affirm or deny that upon death, if the soul (spirit) returns to God, that it means the soul is distinct from God’s personhood?
- If your position is that upon the person’s death, only the physical nature, including the soul, ceases to exist, then is it re-created upon his resurrection?
- If your position is that upon the person’s death, only the physical nature, including the soul, ceases to exist, and that he is re-created by God, then how is the continuity of the person maintained?
- Do you affirm or deny that the phrase “whole person of Jesus” means that in the one person of Jesus are two distinct natures, the divine and human? (This is called the hypostatic union)
- Do you affirm or deny that the phrase “whole person of Jesus” means that the attributes of both his divine and human natures were ascribed to, and claimed by, the single person of Jesus? (This is called the Communicatio Idiomatum)
- Do you affirm or deny that the whole person of Jesus died on the cross?
- Do you affirm or deny that if the whole person of Jesus died on the cross, that it means both his natures died on the cross?
- Do you affirm or deny that only the human nature of Jesus died on the cross?
- If only the human nature of Jesus died on the cross, then how is the sacrifice of Jesus of divine value?
- Do you affirm or deny that between the death of Jesus and his physical resurrection, his human nature ceased to exist?
- Do you affirm or deny that only the human nature of Jesus died on the cross and also ceased to exist, then was it re-created upon his resurrection?
- If your position is that upon the death of Jesus, only the human nature ceased to exist, can you please explain how the hypostatic union of Jesus is maintained?
- Do you affirm or deny that between the death of Jesus and his physical resurrection, his human nature continued to exist but was in a state of unconscious soul sleep?
- Do you affirm or deny that between the death of Jesus and his physical resurrection, his human nature continued to exist and was conscious and active?
- Do you affirm or deny that at the death of Jesus, his divine nature ceased to exist?
- If you deny that both the divine and human natures ceased to exist in his physical death, then can you please explain what happened to each of Jesus’ natures upon his physical death on the cross?
- Do you affirm or deny that an unbeliever ceases to exist after his physical death, and his soul is resurrected to be judged to annihilation?
- Do you affirm or deny that when a person dies and ceases to exist, and his soul is later resurrected to be judged to eternal life or extinction, that the continuity of the person is disrupted?
- By continuity means the existence of the essence of something continues and is uninterrupted.
- Do you affirm or deny that when a person dies and ceases to exist, and his soul is later resurrected to be judged to eternal life or extinction, that the continuity of the person is not disrupted?
- Do you affirm or deny that upon the death of an unbeliever, he is automatically and permanently annihilated?
- Do you affirm or deny that an unbeliever will undergo a time of conscious punishment that corresponds to his sin before his annihilation?
- Do you affirm or deny that the state of non-existence is the final punishment for unbelievers?
- Do you affirm or deny that the unbeliever continues to exist in a conscious state after physical death and that he is undergoing punishment during that time?
- Do you affirm or deny that an unbeliever, in a state of soul sleep, is not undergoing punishment?
- Do you affirm or deny that an unbeliever, in a state of soul sleep, will be awakened,
- Do you affirm or deny that the only way a person can be conscious is when he is united with his living, physical body?
- Do you affirm or deny that good angels will continue to exist forever?
- Do you affirm or deny that the wicked angels will be annihilated?
- Do you affirm or deny that the devil will be judged and condemned to conscious, eternal punishment without end?
Death is an eternal punishment.
That is false. Revelation 20 says nothing of the sort. That's your interpretation.
Yes. The False Prophet is a distinctly different false prophet from the average false prophet. This individual in close alliance with the Beast (The anti-christ protagonist) in the great tribulation.
The spirits continue to exist see James 2:26. The poor theory that a spirit ends was not taught among Christians until the late 1770's through the 1800's in church history. If you want you can find those books online by googling conditional immortality . or something like that.
A few questions for you here:
https://carm.org/annihilationism/50-questions-for-conditionalists-annihilationists/