2 Thessalonians 2

OldSage · Jul 24, 2021

How can you just go about redefining terms like this? Seriously, this is borderline Clintonesque what you are doing.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 646: ἀποστασία

ἀποστασία, ἀποστασιας, ἡ (ἀφισταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36

29) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say ἀπόστασις; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

Stasis - insurrection

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4714/kjv/tr/0-1/
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4955/kjv/tr/0-1/

I mean I am seriously disappointed that you would pursue such a ridiculous idea just to support a stupid false eschatology.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 24, 2021

^ "Stasis / stasin" G4714 - See my post about its NINTH occurrence, found in Hebrews 9:8-9a, "8 By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the "furnishings" of v.4] still having a standing [stasin / stasis], 9 which is a symbol/PARABLE for the present time "

https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/9-8.htm

Do you think its NINTH occurrence is IDENTICAL IN MEANING as the other 8x?? ("insurrection")

... and ponder deeply the word "PARABLE" (in this Heb9:8-9a reference)

OldSage · Jul 24, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

You're lost TDW. You tie yourself in knots.
Apostasia means - falling away, apostasy, defection, (from the true religion) and rebellion (see the LXX)

The apostasy/rebellion occurred when the Zealots completely ran riot and roughshod over the Temple system.
Really not complicated.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 24, 2021

Here's the lexicon info (for G646):

[quoting]

Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon (1889) -

ἀποστασία late form of ἀπόστασις

[this ^ says: "apostasia late form of apostasis" (i.e. the SAME WORD); my hard copy [1889] says "later form for..."]

Then when you go to the entry for "apostasis" (it says under that entry):

ἀπόστασις ἀφίσταμαι

a standing away from, and so,

1.a defection, revolt, ἀπό τινος or τινος Hdt., Thuc.; πρός τινα Thuc.

2.departure from, βίου Eur.

3.distance, interval, Plat.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=a)po/stasis

[end quoting]

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 24, 2021

^ That... was published in "1889"

[here's a previous post of mine]

[note: "Strong's Concordance first published 1890."]

The FIRST SEVEN ENGLISH translations (before the kjv ever existed) rendered this word (in 2Th2:3) as "a departing" or "departure"... which is the basic meaning of this word.

Example:

Geneva Bible of 1587 -

"Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,"

Also, in the 400s, the Latin Vulgate has it as "discessio" (MEANING, "departure").

[end quoting old post]

____________

OldSage · Jul 24, 2021

It is a fringe translation at best.

You understand
"Tribulation" - Coming of the Lord/Rapture - Destruction of "The Antichrist" - Day of the Lord

and by implication that the Church at Thessalonika has been taught these false concepts already
but might have inadvertently not noticed

1) A dodgy geezer in the Temple for 7 years claiming to be God
2) Jesus returning in an event that every eye shall see
3 ) The Church - they themselves - being raptured!
4) A raptured Paul still penning epistles to a presumably lost Church

Your eschatology is frankly bananas. Sorry. has to be said

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 24, 2021

OldSage said:

From the article I LINKED on the last page (from Post #310 of the "50 Reasons" thread):

"The fact that our word "apostasy" means a defection from the truth is entirely beside the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word mean to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1 Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words "some shall depart from the faith" and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase "from the faith" indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context."

--Kenneth S Wuest

This explains also why we do not READ INTO this 2Th2 context, the idea of "a departure FROM MOSES" (as is the context of its occurrence in Acts 21:21

... its surrounding words inform of just "WHAT KIND" of departure is MEANT... and so here, in our present text 2Th2:3b).

"apo stasis" - "a standing away"

("a standing away" from a previous "standing"... or, "DEPARTURE")

OldSage · Jul 24, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

It is a fringe translation at best.

You understand
"Tribulation" - Coming of the Lord/Rapture - Destruction of "The Antichrist" - Day of the Lord

and by implication that the Church at Thessalonika has been taught these false concepts already
but might have inadvertently not noticed

1) A dodgy geezer in the Temple for 7 years claiming to be God
2) Jesus returning in an event that every eye shall see
3 ) The Church - they themselves - being raptured!
4) A raptured Paul still penning epistles to a presumably lost Church

Your eschatology is frankly bananas. Sorry. Has to be said

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 24, 2021

^ No... that is not MY "understanding" (as you suggest ^ )

Instead, the "false claim" that Paul is pointing out in v.2 has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "[purporting] that the RAPTURE has already happened!"

Rather, "[purporting] that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE* [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"

The false conveyors do not have to even be aware of the concept of "our Rapture". That there IS one.

The Thessalonians ARE aware of the MANNER of the ARRIVAL OF "the day of the Lord" earthly TIME-PERIOD.

What Paul is writing to them for, is to BRING the Subject of "our RAPTURE [IN THE AIR] / THE DEPARTURE" TO their "distraught minds [or, potentially distraught minds]," which weren't thinking of THAT SUBJECT,... by his speaking of the SEQUENCE... ONE THING *FIRST* before the earthly time-period of JUDGMENTS can "be present" to unfold upon the earth, with its man of sin "IN HIS TIME" (the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" time-period): "OUR episynagoes UNTO HIM" ["THE DEPARTURE" of US, IN THE AIR] must take place *FIRST* ! (what a COMFORT to know! Keep thinking ON THIS! [v.15])

OldSage · Jul 24, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Where did I say contrary. I understand full well that you think the false claim is the DOTL.
You always seem to be trying to make things so foggy.
Here again is what I understand of your funny beliefs

AAAAAAAAAAAAAArRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH

Can't you just write something in plain English that is intelligible??
It is really tiring playing endless guessing games.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 24, 2021

"false claim" (per v.2)... NOT that ppl were MISSING (and consequently we missed something)... but that an earthly-located TIME-PERIOD "is ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]".

Paul: NOT! ONE THING must take place "FIRST" (THE DEPARTURE / OUR RAPTURE [IN THE AIR] / "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM")

No.

Not "my understanding" at all.

The ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" is SEAL #1 / the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5] / the START of the 7-yr Trib (Dan9:27a[26b])... not the END of it when the "man of sin" is destroyed (2Th2:8b-"the MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" when "EVERY EYE" shall see Him!)

OldSage · Jul 24, 2021

What does all this gobbledy-gook mean?

OldSage · Jul 24, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

i can't read this. It is abusive and disgusting to write in such a way. It is contemptuous of your readers
AND you use this style to create a smokescreen to hide your fallacies and rubbish.
Ghastly
PLAIN ENGLISH PLEASE
Not some kind of mad abstract form

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 24, 2021

@OldSage

Ditto for me. ("argh")

What in the world are you trying to say in the BOLD, above??

It is completely incoherent to me (though I certainly tried to grasp what you meant by it... and to offer my clarification in view of it)

I can surely relate

Mem · Jul 24, 2021

OldSage said:

tdw's departure is in the sense of a plane leaving the runway or a train leaving a station, though even the translators that use that exact term' intent of usage is in the sense of a divergence from an common idea rather than a physical location.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 24, 2021

OldSage said:

Exactly what 1Th5:1-3 already referred to, prior to this second letter to them

--its arrival is like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... (Jesus spoke of that: Matt24:4 / Mk13:5--equivalent the "FIRST SEAL" ["the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL] = the "SEALS"])

--its arrival is like... a thief IN THE NIGHT (this is not speaking of Jesus Himself; the "IN THE NIGHT" phrase is never used when referring to JESUS HIMSELF as "[I come as] A THIEF." [Rev16:15-16])

1Th5:1-3 "KNOW PERFECTLY"

Mem · Jul 24, 2021

OldSage said:

Where did I say contrary. I understand full well that you think the false claim is the DOTL.
You always seem to be trying to make things so foggy.
Here again is what I understand of your funny beliefs

AAAAAAAAAAAAAArRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH

Can't you just write something in plain English that is intelligible??
It is really tiring playing endless guessing games.

It pains me to see you like this ...

Omegatime · Jul 24, 2021

if you knew when the Day of the Lord begins you would have your answer for this Day is tied into his coming. Without knowing exactly when everyone is assuming.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 24, 2021

@OldSage

Notice this (what I've pointed out in past posts):

Verse 9a ("whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / parousia" of the man of sin) is 3.5 YEARS PRIOR TO the 2:4 "SITTETH" thing he'll do at the MID-point of the 7-yrs

Notice:

Verse 1 is NOT the same item nor time-slot as v.8b (His "MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" when "EVERY EYE" shall see Him)

Which Subject PAUL is bringing to the fore, in view of the "false claim" he is pointing out in v.2 (v.2's Subject--"that the day of the Lord" earthly time-period of judgments unfolding, "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE")

Who said the "false claim" (v.2) was on the Subject of "RAPTURE"? It wasn't, it isn't, and I didn't! IT'S NOT!

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 24, 2021

[imagine with me, if you will]

False conveyors: [in chicken little voice] "the TRIB is here! the TRIB is here! It ARRIVED some time back and WE'RE IN IT!"

The Thessalonians: [*full freak-out mode*]

Paul: NOPE, dudes, don't believe them... it won't be here till OUR RAPTURE happens FIRST...

[not rocket science... clear as a bell]

2 Thessalonians 2

Banned

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Banned

Banned

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Omegatime

Guest

Well-known member

Well-known member