Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Jesusistheway64]

That, I cannot say. Matthew wrote "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, ... ." While the Greek book of Matthew says "ἐπὶ τῶν νεφελῶν" (upon the clouds), Luke wrote "εν νεφελη" (in a cloud). The meaning of this is vague to say the least, and it may well require your "spiritual vision" to discern its fulfillment.

Moreover, "ἐπὶ" can be translated as "over / above," and if Jesus were to be above the cloud then, how would you be able to see him past the cloud? All of that should be considered along with the fact that, when a "cloud" is used of God, it represents His glory and presence. (That's not to say we absolutely won't see physical clouds. There have been cases where physical clouds appeared, and thus we have the definition of it.)

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems you like to use the corrupted lexicons. I am not saying you use them. But I would trust them with a 10 ft pole

 

[Ahwatukee]

You can right a book as far as I am concerned it will not change the fact that there is no rapture before the tribulation.. this should not even be a discussion.

The problem is, you don't understand the difference between the common trials and tribulations that come as a result of faith vs. God's coming, unprecedented, direct wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. If you did, you understand that we are not appointed to suffer said wrath because Jesus already did. You also don't understand the severity of those plagues of wrath and why and whom they are prepared for. It certainly isn't His church.

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Anyone who's studied this knows (or should know) that when John Nelson Darby was inventing his dispensationalism he face a dilemma. He believed the church age would end and a new age—or dispensation—would begin in which God would once again turn His attention to the Jews. But what would bring about the end of the church age? The pre-tribulation rapture of course. He didn't get this idea by studying the scripture and having a revelation from the Lord. He was actively looking for something to fit his preconceived notions of dispensationalism.

The pre-trib rapture isn't taught in scripture. It's a pure fabrication. And the fact that so many people have bought into it proves people don't understand God's word.

Bingo... you nailed it...He was a freemason

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

... so THIS ^ is the SUBSTANCE of the "false claim" that Paul is telling about in v.2;...

...meaning, that the TIME-PERIOD of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth (aka what WE call the TRIBULATION PERIOD) "IS ALREADY PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" <-- THAT is the SUBSTANCE of the "FALSE CLAIM" that Paul is telling about IN VERSE 2! (the false claim [v.2] is NOT that "CHRIST HIMSELF HAS RETURNED!" or "IS NEAR"... NO!)



V.2 is Paul telling them not to be deceived by anyone telling them "that the DAY OF THE LORD IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" (the TIME-PERIOD of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth, aka the TRIB yrs)

 

[Jesusistheway64]

The problem is, you don't understand the difference between the common trials and tribulations that come as a result of faith vs. God's coming, unprecedented, direct wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. If you did, you understand that we are not appointed to suffer said wrath because Jesus already did. You also don't understand the severity of those plagues of wrath and why and whom they are prepared for. It certainly isn't His church.

I
I have been a Christian for a long time. And when I first came to Lord, I was told of this great event called the rapture. I was excited and thrilled to be taken out here. Everytime I would read what Paul said and what Jesus said in Matthew 24. I did not see a rapture at all. And it plagued me... Paul and Jesus are talking about the same event. You cannot twist scripture because you dont want to be martyrs. It pure selfishness to beleive you deserve to raptured out of here. It's not God wrath. Satan will be in charge during that time. He is in charge now. The Bible says Satan have decieved the whole world..and that's literal. They will kill Christians. I will say this one more time. Are you better than the Christian's before you that were martyred for Christ?

 

[Jesusistheway64]

True.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This passage literally tells us the gathering of us to Christ will not happen until the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin happens and those things are related to events of the Great Tribulation which means the rapture in no way can happen before thousand years Great Tribulation does.

That people believe the opposite of this passage means the strong delusion God sends is the pre-trib rapture doctrine.

Actually the strong delusion is not just the pre trib rapture. The strong delusion is going on now...And satan has decieved the whole world . I wont get into to how satan is decieving the whole world now. That's a different topic

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Oh? Are these Israelites saved as well?

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Dont tell these Christians the Jews are going to hell. You will start a real battle..lol

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Dont tell these Christians the Jews are going to hell. You will start a real battle..lol

You just answered your own question. It is because Jesus took upon himself the God's wrath satisfying it completely, as the reason why believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and why we will be get that free ticket out of here, as promise by the Lord himself.



The apostles and first century Christians did not suffer God's wrath, but suffered the trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him, which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. God's coming wrath is not the same as those trials and tribulations as a result of our faith in Him. What is coming is God's direct wrath upon a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Jesus said that He would keep us out of this wrath for those who overcome and for keeping the patient endurance of His word. It is just a matter of understanding the difference between the two.



Here we go with the Darby thing, which is a known false apologetic that people go to. I personally have never read anything by Darby. My information regarding the pre-tribulation gathering of the church comes purely from scripture and I can show you everyone one of them, what they mean and why.

We are appointed to suffer trials and tribulations because of our faith in Christ. But we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath because Jesus already satisfied it on behalf of every believer.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Those who have the Son, the wrath of God does not remain on him.

Quit saying its Gods wrath. Its not

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Nonelects will have greater punishment for preaching false doctrine. That secret rapture doctrine harmed (had fear) me when I was a Baby Christian.
James 3:1
King James Version

3 My brethren, be not many masters (teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

.
What are trying to say?

 

[Jesusistheway64]

This is most likely more of a Biblical misinterpretation than selfish or self-seeking Christians weaving a web of errors in order to somehow avoid a post-tribulation rapture. The Word of God doesn't need us to fully understand it to come to pass. God works entirely independent of what we believe or understand.

I may not agree with pre-tribbers, literally on anything, but I still see them as brothers and sisters. We all have flaws. I won't sit here and pretend I'm without faults.

To me it is being selfish. I am sorry. False doctrine is warned against. You think that's not a big issue? Its false doctrine

 

[Jesusistheway64]

You just answered your own question. It is because Jesus took upon himself the God's wrath satisfying it completely, as the reason why believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and why we will be get that free ticket out of here, as promise by the Lord himself.



The apostles and first century Christians did not suffer God's wrath, but suffered the trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him, which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. God's coming wrath is not the same as those trials and tribulations as a result of our faith in Him. What is coming is God's direct wrath upon a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Jesus said that He would keep us out of this wrath for those who overcome and for keeping the patient endurance of His word. It is just a matter of understanding the difference between the two.



Here we go with the Darby thing, which is a known false apologetic that people go to. I personally have never read anything by Darby. My information regarding the pre-tribulation gathering of the church comes purely from scripture and I can show you everyone one of them, what they mean and why.

We are appointed to suffer trials and tribulations because of our faith in Christ. But we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath because Jesus already satisfied it on behalf of every believer.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Those who have the Son, the wrath of God does not remain on him.

One more time. Have you read Matthew 24?

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Hello Jesusistheway64,

That is a false assumption on your part! Our faith is not based on the timing of when the Lord gathers the church, but is on the Lord himself. We who know that the Lord is going to gather His church prior to His wrath are always ready to take up our crosses, even unto persecution and death. Therefore, we would not freak out--as you say-- and abandon our faith if we were to face persecution and death on behalf of our faith in the Lord. If we found ourselves in that time period, we of all people would know what to expect and what to do.

The reason we preach the gathering of the church (Rapture) is because scripture teaches that the dead in Christ will rise first and then those who are still alive at that time will be changed immortal and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. The on-going contention is when this event takes place in relation to the tribulation period. We happen to believe that this event will take place prior to God's wrath, because scripture states that those in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and that because the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him (Jesus). Those who believe and teach that the Lord is going to gather His church after His wrath, do not believe this. If they did, then they would truly believe that the punishment (God's wrath) that he took upon himself truly did bring us peace, exempting us from God's wrath. There would be absolutely no reason for the Lord to send His bride through His wrath, since He has already satisfied it. Not mention the fact that the church is nowhere mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath.

I guess we will never agree on the rapture. But if I came off a little over edge. Please forgive me

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Dont tell these Christians the Jews are going to hell. You will start a real battle..lol

Dont tell these Christians the Jews are going to hell. You will start a real battle..lol

Jews cannot be saved unless they beleive in Jesus Christ. Only converted Jews will be saved

 

[ewq1938]

Jews cannot be saved unless they beleive in Jesus Christ. Only converted Jews will be saved

Agreed.

 

[Ruby123]

You know the sad thing about this is that, the belief of the church going through God's wrath and being gathered afterwards shouldn't even be a belief or teaching. It should be understood by God's nature that He would not put His bride through His wrath right along with the wicked. This comes from a lack of understanding regarding who the Day of the Lord will affect, as well as a lack of understanding of its purpose and severity. When we believed, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Yet they have still have us going through God's wrath, as though those things don't make any difference. Not to mention the fact that Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely.

Once the church has been gathered, then they will no that what we have been telling them was the truth. For that day will have closed on them like a trap.

Does the day of the Lord refer to his wedding day, where we are his bride. If so then I cant imagine that he would want us tortured, beheaded and bashed then he marries us.

 

[ewq1938]

Does the day of the Lord refer to his wedding day, where we are his bride. If so then I cant imagine that he would want us tortured, beheaded and bashed then he marries us.

The wedding is after the resurrection and rapture, after the Great Tribulation is over and the enemy is defeated.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I
I have been a Christian for a long time. And when I first came to Lord, I was told of this great event called the rapture. I was excited and thrilled to be taken out here. Everytime I would read what Paul said and what Jesus said in Matthew 24. I did not see a rapture at all. And it plagued me... Paul and Jesus are talking about the same event. You cannot twist scripture because you dont want to be martyrs. It pure selfishness to beleive you deserve to raptured out of here. It's not God wrath. Satan will be in charge during that time. He is in charge now. The Bible says Satan have decieved the whole world..and that's literal. They will kill Christians.

First of all, I don't twist scripture in order to not be a martyr. I have studied and continue to study every aspect of every given Biblical topic. Those who twist the scriptures are those who claim that the Lord is going to first put His church through His wrath and then gather her afterwards. They present partial information! Any contention you or anyone can present I have gone over. As soon as I see your reasoning, I already have the answer.

The whole seven years, also known as the "tribulation period, the Day of the Lord, and the Hour of Trial" is all of God's wrath. That seven years will be the fulfillment of the last seven years of the seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem as stated in Dan.9:24. And it will be the time when God will pour out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. Revelation 12 states that Satan will be angry when he finds himself cast out of heaven knowing that his time is short. However, that takes place within the time period of God's wrath and is in fact the results of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe which is one of the plagues of God's wrath. So, how can you and others call it, Satan's wrath?

Secondly, the gathering of the church is nowhere mentioned in Matt.24, but because of the previous on-going false teachings, I think that I know what you are referring to, which is in error.

I will say this one more time. Are you better than the Christian's before you that were martyred for Christ?

No, I am not better than the Christian's before me and I am prepared to go through trials and tribulations resulting from my faith. However, the Christians before me did not suffer the wrath of God. They suffered the trials and tribulations as a result of faith in Christ. The coming wrath of God is not the same as those trials and tribulations, but will be God's direct wrath. You are correct in that there should not even be a discussion on this, because expositors ought to know God's nature in that He does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be God's direct judgments affecting the entire earth, then we are not appointed to suffer that time of wrath. You need to learn that there is a difference between these two. You've been reading to many of the false teachings of men that are out there.

Regarding that time of wrath, Jesus warns believers to always be watching for His appearing so that this day does not take us by surprise. Because we do not belong to the darkness or to the night, which is referring to the time of God's wrath.

I would advise you to do a study on 'The Day of the Lord' scriptures and understand who God's wrath is directed at. It certainly is not directed at the righteous, but against the arrogant, the prideful, the sexually immoral, as well as those willfully practicing the rest of the sinful nature. I would also suggest that you do a deeper study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements. These are not things that the apostle, nor the first century Christians, nor the church in the last days are to suffer.

Do you actually think that God is going to torment his church with those demonic beings who are released from the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet? This part of God's wrath that you say we should not escape.

What about when those four angels are unbound and they gather their 200 million demonic army who kill a third of mankind. That too is God's wrath. Are we to suffer that too? Boy, if that is how God treats the righteous, I feel sorry for the wicked!

How about when the fourth angel pours his bowl out on the sun, which scorches the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat, searing them? Is the Lord going to put His church through that? Is that the same as the trials and tribulations that the apostles and the first century church endured? You and others don't know what you are talking about! Those are not common trials and tribulations. In fact, none of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment are common trials and tribulations. They are for the wicked!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Does the day of the Lord refer to his wedding day, where we are his bride. If so then I cant imagine that he would want us tortured, beheaded and bashed then he marries us.

Hi there Ruby123,

No, 'The Day of the Lord' is an expression describing a specific time when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth, which has been prophesied of for thousands of years. Here is an example from Zephaniah and Isaiah:

====================================================

“I will completely sweep away everything from the face of the earth,” declares the LORD.

“I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, and the idols with their wicked worshipers.

I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth,”



The great Day of the LORD is near—near and coming quickly.

Listen, the Day of the LORD!

Then the cry of the mighty will be bitter.

That day will be a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of destruction and desolation,

a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness,

a day of horn blast and battle cry against the fortified cities, and against the high corner towers.

I will bring such distress on mankind that they will walk like the blind, because they have sinned against the LORD.

Their blood will be poured out like dust and their flesh like dung.

Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them on the Day of the LORD’s wrath.

The whole earth will be consumed by the fire of His jealousy.

For indeed, He will make a sudden end of all who dwell on the earth. - Zepaniah 1

=======================================================================

Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it.

For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light.

The rising sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light.

I will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their iniquity.

I will end the haughtiness of the arrogant and lay low the pride of the ruthless.

I will make man scarcer than pure gold, and mankind rarer than the gold of Ophir. - Isaiah 13

========================================================================

Jesus also refers to the same time period as "the Hour of Trial," which is neither a a day nor an hour in length, but is a moniker referring to the entire period of God's wrath, which will take place during that last seven years.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Does the day of the Lord refer to his wedding day, where we are his bride. If so then I cant imagine that he would want us tortured, beheaded and bashed then he marries us.

You are absolutely correct, Ruby, the Lord is not going to torture His bride first and then gather us. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments cannot in any way be construed to be common trials and tribulations, as some here are attempt infer. It is because Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves is why we will not be exposed to those seals, trumpets and bowl plagues of wrath. Revelation 19:6-8 shows the bride/church in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb during the tribulation period:

=======================================================

“Hallelujah!

For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory.

For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.

She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”

====================================================

Then in verse 14 shows the bride, referred to as "the armies in heaven" wearing the same fine linen that she will have just received and following the Lord out of heaven to end the age, riding on white horses.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Its hyper-spiritual hogwash for anyone to preclude themselves from Jesus' Olivet Discourse and still claim to be His follower.

I disagree.

Rather, it is a matter of...

--understanding that there are distinct "harvests" (that is, more than ONE "harvest" in Scripture and in nature; and more than ONE "firstfruit" [James 1:18; see TWO DISTINCT "firstfruit" in Lev23]--note: this is NOT to say "more than one 'rapture'"... NO!);

--ascertaining the CHRONOLOGY issues in Scripture (esp. in these various eschatological contexts under present discussion);

--"distinguishing the things that DIFFER," as we are instructed to do (things which are DIFFERENT are NOT the SAME--ex: I just supplied between Jesus' Olivet Discourse's reference to "watch" [and its parallel, like in Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"; incl'g in Lk21:36] and Paul's reference to "watch" [1Th5:10(6)]--NOT saying the SAME THING regarding these);

--and "correctly apportioning the word of truth," as we are also exhorted to do







You are free to lump everything into one big mish-mash of mush, if you so wish, but I myself have several problems with doing so (some of which I list above--and this is nothing related to "hyper-spiritual" anything, let alone "hogwash" )