Look at the text in Isaiah 27:9,12,13 [which is parallel Matthew 24:29-31 (not to mention the parallel to Rom11:27, etc)], and see "TO WHERE" they are gathered, and to WHAT PURPOSE ("to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"), to grasp that only "believing" ones will ENTER the MK age (having already come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs--However, [to (supposedly) do so/come to faith] "AFTER" He returns is TOO LATE. Scripture nowhere depicts such a thing... regarding what leads up to the point in time of His return to the earth Rev19.)
50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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The question is simple, are these "elect" pre-trib viewed so-called post-trib raptured Israelites of Matthew 24:31, Christian Israelites or non-Christians Israelites?
Matthew 24 (NKJV)
31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24 (NKJV)
31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You're getting the context out of whack... this context (Matthew 24:4 and following, thru-out 2 chpts) is not what takes place BEFORE the Trib, but what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture," so IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib (and after THAT), see...
Now you can re-think and re-phrase your question, in light of that...
[the CONTEXT of Matt24-25 is not "pre-Trib... IOW, Jesus is nowhere covering the Subject of "our Rapture" in His Olivet Discourse]
Now you can re-think and re-phrase your question, in light of that...
[the CONTEXT of Matt24-25 is not "pre-Trib... IOW, Jesus is nowhere covering the Subject of "our Rapture" in His Olivet Discourse]
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The church began with Jews/Israel (the 12 disciples). The church has always been true Israel in Christ from it's beginning and continues to be that way today but with the inclusion of gentiles into this church.
It is the same with the concept of the bride of Christ and the body of Christ. The bride and body started with Jews/Israel (the 12 disciples). Gentiles that accept Christ are grafted into these concepts and become part of the Church, part of the bride, part of the body and part of the great olive tree which has many of the natural Jewish branches since the ministry of Christ and beyond.
Israel is the Church. Gentiles that believe in Christ join that Church.
Israel is the body of Christ. Gentiles that believe in Christ join that body.
Israel is the Bride of Christ. Gentiles that believe in Christ join that Bride.
It is the same with the concept of the bride of Christ and the body of Christ. The bride and body started with Jews/Israel (the 12 disciples). Gentiles that accept Christ are grafted into these concepts and become part of the Church, part of the bride, part of the body and part of the great olive tree which has many of the natural Jewish branches since the ministry of Christ and beyond.
Israel is the Church. Gentiles that believe in Christ join that Church.
Israel is the body of Christ. Gentiles that believe in Christ join that body.
Israel is the Bride of Christ. Gentiles that believe in Christ join that Bride.
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There is NO "rapture / SNATCH [G726]" [i.e. a SINGULAR "SNATCH-ACTION"] AFTER the Trib.
Matthew 24:29-31 [parallel Isaiah 27:9,12,13] is NOT depicting such.
["ye shall be gathered ONE by ONE, O ye children of Israel... to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"; Compare also v.9 with Rom11:27 and Dan9:24b (re: Israel)]
Matthew 24:29-31 [parallel Isaiah 27:9,12,13] is NOT depicting such.
["ye shall be gathered ONE by ONE, O ye children of Israel... to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"; Compare also v.9 with Rom11:27 and Dan9:24b (re: Israel)]
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That's like saying "the angels are in that "elect" category [per 1Tim5:21 - "21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels ..." ]. That means Matthew 24 is also about "the angels" [also being the ones "gathered" in that text]."
NOT.
NOT.
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Yes there is:
The rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended, after Christ's second coming begins, after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)
The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.
It's that simple.
Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)
Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.
A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.
Obviously that isn't the rapture because they are not taken to the clouds. This is not about anyone going upwards into the sky. Why would you even try to pass this off as a rapture verse??
The rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended, after Christ's second coming begins, after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)
The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.
It's that simple.
Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)
Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.
A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.
Obviously that isn't the rapture because they are not taken to the clouds. This is not about anyone going upwards into the sky. Why would you even try to pass this off as a rapture verse??
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You've got that all wrong.
Read Colossians 3. Paul taught the gentile church members there is no distinction between them and Israel because in Christ we are all united, spiritually, as the elect of God.
Col. 3:11-12
11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Now re-read Matthew 24:29-31. Jesus gathers His elect immediately after the tribulation.
Read Colossians 3. Paul taught the gentile church members there is no distinction between them and Israel because in Christ we are all united, spiritually, as the elect of God.
Col. 3:11-12
11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Now re-read Matthew 24:29-31. Jesus gathers His elect immediately after the tribulation.
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Dear former pre-trib lost Christian,
Welcome home as a fellow true, truth-loving, tribulation praying Christian.
It was not your fault, you were pre-programmed by John Nelson Darby's christianzionism that gained a great foothold throughout Scotland, Ireland and North America after the 1830's and beyond... It even lessened the occurrence of the word "tribulation" dramatically throughout English literature beyond the 1830's. But you took responsibility for your own future and deprogrammed yourself with the help of God. Now you pray that God may give you strength, to escape here on earth, through the great tribulation.
Luke 21 (ESV)
36But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Kind regards,
Your fellow loving Christian.
Welcome home as a fellow true, truth-loving, tribulation praying Christian.
It was not your fault, you were pre-programmed by John Nelson Darby's christianzionism that gained a great foothold throughout Scotland, Ireland and North America after the 1830's and beyond... It even lessened the occurrence of the word "tribulation" dramatically throughout English literature beyond the 1830's. But you took responsibility for your own future and deprogrammed yourself with the help of God. Now you pray that God may give you strength, to escape here on earth, through the great tribulation.
Luke 21 (ESV)
36But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Kind regards,
Your fellow loving Christian.
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I follow a site, in another social media outlet, in which the rapture and end times prophecy is discussed. Several posts on there posit that counting down from the restoration of Israel in 1948, we are at 73 years after, and the 80th anniversary is 2028. They are using the number "80" as the lifespan of a generation and saying that we are the generation that will see the return of Christ, since this generation saw the first of the signs (Israel). Any thoughts on this?
I've read it. You're trying to say that only ethic Jews are God's elect which I disagree with and have proved otherwise using Colossians 3 and Matthew 24.
A lot has happened since Ezekiel 36 &37. Today, spiritual Israel is composed of a diverse body of believers, unified in Christ, called God's elect. The Bible says so.
Do you deny the church is God's elect?
A lot has happened since Ezekiel 36 &37. Today, spiritual Israel is composed of a diverse body of believers, unified in Christ, called God's elect. The Bible says so.
Do you deny the church is God's elect?
My take on it in this context:
G1074 "men of the same stock, a family" "a genealogy"
Jesus is saying that the line of the house of Jacob shall survive from the time of His First Advent (when Matt 24 was spoken) all the way through the intervening ages......and continue to persist until Matt 24/70th week has been fulfillment. This fulfillment which shall occur at the end of the age, or more properly stated during the beginning of the DOTL.
Any other theory causes all kinds of problems IMO.
G1074 "men of the same stock, a family" "a genealogy"
Jesus is saying that the line of the house of Jacob shall survive from the time of His First Advent (when Matt 24 was spoken) all the way through the intervening ages......and continue to persist until Matt 24/70th week has been fulfillment. This fulfillment which shall occur at the end of the age, or more properly stated during the beginning of the DOTL.
Any other theory causes all kinds of problems IMO.
QUOTE:
Christian Zionism - Wikipedia
Christian Zionism is a belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 were in accordance with Bible prophecy.
:END QUOTE.
I do not give a Hoot about John Nelson Darby. I have never read any of his books, and have NEVER heard a sermon, where his theology was even mentioned.
HOWEVER, I CARE A LOT ABOUT CHRISTIAN ZIONISM, and am a Proud supporter of ISRAEL. I am not a Jew,
BUT I AM A SUPPORTER OF ISRAEL, and wish the CHURCH would start celebrating THE SEVEN FEASTS OF ISRAEL. WHY?
BECAUSE JESUS IS THE FULFILLMENT OF ALL SEVEN OF THEM.
I find your Anti Christian Zionist statement AS OFFENSIVE AS IT GETS.
Just so you know, You will get to go through the Great Tribulation.
Most of the rest of us already have the INVITE to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven in out Hearts,
at the beginning of Jacob's Prophesied Trouble.