Unconditional love and the church's approach to homosexuality

[peldom10]

Such an interesting comment coming from you.

I knew I was not the only one aware of that point.

 

[AandW]

Good question. Let's look at what Jesus said:

Revelation 2:2 "I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’"

Jesus tells the people of Ephesus twice to repent, and warns only those who overcome or "conquer" will receive life in paradise. Does an eternally saved person need to repent? Has an eternally saved person already overcome/conquered?

Let's toss this into the mixture here:
The Book of Revelation is papyrus dated to mid 90's A.D.
We know John was placed in Patmos around 90 A.D. by Domitian.
We know Domitian dies around 95 A.D. and Nerva released all of Domitian's prisoners not long afterwords.
Then from Papias, Polycarp, and Ignatius [Disciples of the Apostle John] and Irenaeus write that John then becomes Bishop of the Ephesus Church.

So, John is given this message by Christ concerning the 7 Churches around 95 A.D.
And soon after, John becomes Bishop of the very same Church of Ephesus.

I am positive what wrongs the Church of Ephesus had going on after Paul founded the Church, were corrected by the Apostle John when he was Bishop going into the 1st Century.


But the sins of the Church of Ephesus happened before 70 A.D.
Paul addresses these issues.
Paul corrects the issues.
30 years later, the Apostle John becomes Bishop of the Church of Ephesus.


So, whatever Christ had against the Church of Ephesus during John's Vision in Patmos, was clearly restored under the guidance of John as Bishop.

So Christ renewed the Church of Ephesus after Rebuking them in Chapter 2.

 

[JerryInBoston]

I am positive what wrongs the Church of Ephesus had going on after Paul founded the Church, were corrected by the Apostle John when he was Bishop going into the 1st Century.

But the sins of the Church of Ephesus happened before 70 A.D.
Paul addresses these issues.
Paul corrects the issues.
30 years later, the Apostle John becomes Bishop of the Church of Ephesus.

So, whatever Christ had against the Church of Ephesus during John's Vision in Patmos, was clearly restored under the guidance of John as Bishop.

So Christ renewed the Church of Ephesus after Rebuking them in Chapter 2.

All of the above is speculative at best. Paul could not have corrected the issues prior to his death before 70 AD; Jesus's message to Ephesus was not given to John until after 90 AD.

 

[kaylagrl]

Let's toss this into the mixture here

I'm not sure we should. But I do love your profile pic.

 

[AandW]

All of the above is speculative at best. Paul could not have corrected the issues prior to his death before 70 AD; Jesus's message to Ephesus was not given to John until after 90 AD.

Agreed!
It would have been best had I stated Paul [addressed] the situation.

 

[AlmondJoy]

As the only openly gay person in this thread, I have suggested over and over that the debate is not and should not be whether homosexuality defined as sin in scripture. That's not up for debate - the bible OT and new makes it clear that sexual activity among people of the same gender is offensive to God.

The real debate and where everyone is failing is how to help Gay people move forward and closer to Christ. The vast majority want to write the sinner off with the sin. And that is not right either. Some want to throw an olive branch, but expect gay people to go cold turkey and just stop being gay instantaneously. Again, while magnificent if achievable, reality dictates humans are sinful by nature and it may not be a smooth pathway.

I've suggested another way a few times now, but it gets ignored or shot down. And that is 'The long road home'. This is the one way that will help gay people make permanent, lasting change little by little. And it works like this;

1) Jesus loves YOU! (The Christian community have spent so many hours telling gay people God hates them that it is just accepted as fact by us)
2) You were designed with purpose
3) Letting Jesus in
4) Taking stock of where we are now and where we need to be heading
5) Repentance
6) Forgiveness
7) A life of atonement in the knowledge that we are who we are and our flesh nature is contrary to God's will
8) Working toward becoming a Eunuch for the glory of God (chastity) (Matthew 19:12)

None of this will be a walk in the park, but Jesus himself said that it is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than achieve the Kingdom of heaven. ie The promise is great, but the journey is not necessarily going to be easy.

If you are gay you are not a Christian. BUT you can become one by repenting of your sin and behold ALL THINGS BECOME NEW!! I am sick to death of people saying " THE church has no love For gays!!!" Why? Because we tell you the truth?

Does the doctor not love you when he tells you that you have a tumor and need surgery? How long would you keep going to a lying doctor that's more worried about your feelings than your health?
If someone doesn't love you enough to tell you the truth then they don't love you

 

[PC123]

I believe that the way many churches and Christians approach the issue of homosexuality is unbiblical.

Churches market themselves as offering unconditional love.
However, all too often they use a bait and switch tactic whereby they offer unconditional love to tempt people in and yet once 'captured', it is discovered that this love and acceptance is conditional on the newcomer changing in whichever way the church 'elders' dictate they should change.
If the church member doesn't change, they may find that they are not included in ways that they were before.

This is manipulation and spiritual abuse, and is absolutely not the kind of unconditional love offered by Jesus.

Before anybody says that homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible and that I'm "ignoring scripture"...
Prostitution is also forbidden in the Bible, and we all know how Jesus asked people not to throw stones and cast judgement.

You see, Jesus uses love to define scripture, and yet humans use scripture to define love.

Jesus reached out to the marginalised, and yet we reach out to condemn.
Perhaps it's in our fallen nature to want to play God?

Lastly, the reason I'm sticking up for homosexuals and using them as an example here is not because I'm gay myself, just as the reason why I'm against racism is not because I am black.

What people decide to do is their business, im ok with that... What im not ok with is the promotion and celebration of sin.
Mardi gras is a celebration of sin. Teaching kids about it is the promotion of sin.
The normalization of sin not only wrong... Its evil incarnate

 

[PC123]

@Mark47Oz . Hey mate, how u doing?
I think you said that your the only openly gay person on this thread. I appreciate the honesty
So id like to ask you what you think of my above statement, in particular about the celebration and promotion of homosexuality.

And please don't get mixed up with what i said. Im not saying your evil its the normalization of sin that im saying is evil. Ok

 

[Unearthed]

If you are gay you are not a Christian. BUT you can become one by repenting of your sin and behold ALL THINGS BECOME NEW!! I am sick to death of people saying " THE church has no love For gays!!!" Why? Because we tell you the truth?

Does the doctor not love you when he tells you that you have a tumor and need surgery? How long would you keep going to a lying doctor that's more worried about your feelings than your health?
If someone doesn't love you enough to tell you the truth then they don't love you

You seem to be suggesting that Christians do not sin, which is false.
Or are you suggesting that homosexuality is worse than other sins?

Nobody is suggesting that homosexuality is not a sin. This thread is about how sins are dealt with, and I used homosexuality as an example.

I used to go to a "church" that believed as you do, and yet the "pastor" used the "church" as an income stream...as in "give me more and more of your money" and taught the falsehood that tithing is a requirement of modern Christians.

Funny how they were not accepting of homosexuality but we're accommodating of swindling...!

 

[PC123]

You seem to be suggesting that Christians do not sin, which is false.
Or are you suggesting that homosexuality is worse than other sins?

Nobody is suggesting that homosexuality is not a sin. This thread is about how sins are dealt with, and I used homosexuality as an example.

I used to go to a "church" that believed as you do, and yet the "pastor" used the "church" as an income stream...as in "give me more and more of your money" and taught the falsehood that tithing is a requirement of modern Christians.

Funny how they were not accepting of homosexuality but we're accommodating of swindling...!

Such churches are false... A sin is a sin and we must hate the sin but not the sinner as we are all sinners, as you said.
I wonder how difficult it must be having that innate attraction to the same sex as a Christian that acknowledges its a sin...
I will never know... What i do know very well is addiction and so i wonder how similar it may be to addiction...

Christian addicts know we sin yet we keep sinning...
Its like Paul in Romans 7, we keep doing the things we don't want to do.
He seems to be talking about addiction when i read it...

Anyway, what i don't like is the normalization of homosexuality, through mardi gras and promoting it, especially to kids.
Would you agree that is wrong?

 

[Unearthed]

Such churches are false... A sin is a sin and we must hate the sin but not the sinner as we are all sinners, as you said.
I wonder how difficult it must be having that innate attraction to the same sex as a Christian that acknowledges its a sin...
I will never know... What i do know very well is addiction and so i wonder how similar it may be to addiction...

Christian addicts know we sin yet we keep sinning...
Its like Paul in Romans 7, we keep doing the things we don't want to do.
He seems to be talking about addiction when i read it...

Anyway, what i don't like is the normalization of homosexuality, through mardi gras and promoting it, especially to kids.
Would you agree that is wrong?

Yeah I agree, teaching homosexuality is wrong.

 

[Mark47Oz]

@Mark47Oz . Hey mate, how u doing?
I think you said that your the only openly gay person on this thread. I appreciate the honesty
So id like to ask you what you think of my above statement, in particular about the celebration and promotion of homosexuality.

And please don't get mixed up with what i said. Im not saying your evil its the normalization of sin that im saying is evil. Ok

Hi PC123. I said I was done with this thread, but I will come back to answer this for you.

Yes I 100% agree with you. It is not offensive at all to suggest that a degree of morality should apply to homosexual behaviour. This might sound like an oxymoron, but the values of decency, respect and monogamy can reduce the offense it causes others. (Marriage is a step too far though) And sex is an adult thing. Let children be children. Part of the big problem with this world is they are growing up far too fast.

Gay people are but a symptom of a much bigger problem going on in the world right now. There is so so much I could say about the state that affect myself and hundreds of millions of others around the world but I will point out a fact that should give you a hint. Gay people have been around since the earliest days of mankind. But there are very few times in history when gay people were so prominent in society. And every time it preceded a great downfall.

The only way out of this mess is to evangelise and convert hearts to love Jesus. The Gay community contains people who are not beyond reach. But this message of God hates gay people and gay people can never be Christian is only keeping people separated form the Salvation they deserve.

 

[PC123]

Hi PC123. I said I was done with this thread, but I will come back to answer this for you.

Yes I 100% agree with you. It is not offensive at all to suggest that a degree of morality should apply to homosexual behaviour. This might sound like an oxymoron, but the values of decency, respect and monogamy can reduce the offense it causes others. (Marriage is a step too far though) And sex is an adult thing. Let children be children. Part of the big problem with this world is they are growing up far too fast.

Gay people are but a symptom of a much bigger problem going on in the world right now. There is so so much I could say about the state that affect myself and hundreds of millions of others around the world but I will point out a fact that should give you a hint. Gay people have been around since the earliest days of mankind. But there are very few times in history when gay people were so prominent in society. And every time it preceded a great downfall.

The only way out of this mess is to evangelise and convert hearts to love Jesus. The Gay community contains people who are not beyond reach. But this message of God hates gay people and gay people can never be Christian is only keeping people separated form the Salvation they deserve.

Your right that a prevalence in homosexuality had preceded the collapse of many civilizations... It's not to say it is THE reason why they fell. I believe it is a combination of things...

I haven't gone through this thread and I can only imagine the response some people might have given to irritate you.
I was saying to Unearthed above that it's the sin that we ought to hate. Not the sinner. We are all sinners and it's repentance that saves us.

I tried to imagine the complexity if your innate attraction to the same sex... But u can never really understand without experiencing it yourself...

Is it comparable to addiction? I have a good understanding of addiction. I'm asked "why don't you just stop" and it irritates me cos I don't have an answer to it. Like Paul in Romans 7 I keep doing what I don't want to do...

The message that God hates gay people is false. I agree. Just like the sick needs the doctor so we all need Christ for we are all sinners... Some people believe they are free from sin yet I see them treating people like animals...

As for the bigger problem in the world I think I know what you mean but please elaborate if u wish. The world has many big problems of many kinds

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I still had to repent, change the direction my life was heading, put my faith trust and rest in Jesus, trust in the Lord , be born from above, abide in Jesus, and stay in Jesus. But, yeah, I did not earn anything; I merely said yes to God's gift.

seems to be an awful lot of work you did there, I can see repent, because no one who has not changed their thinking has true faith in God, but the rest of the stuff is all on you

where is your faith in God to change you? Paul said we can have the confidence God will complete it’s work. Not might.l yu say you have to do it yourself, or you will lose salvation,

your still trusting in self, ,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey bro, are you drinking or doing drugs? I have faith, and told you so multiple times, and your spelling is atrocious.

Hey dude, are you judging against.. I I hear you say you have faith, I just do there you say that faith is in God and his work. And how you believe God can fail if you do not work hard enough

and I was typing on a small IPhone, spell Check is awful on that phone, stop trying to shift the discussion, this post was rude,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Such an interesting comment coming from you.

At least I answer all the questions. Everyone may not like my answer. But I answer them, unless I asked a question first, and they try to skip my answer, I may even answer with another question. But at least I answer

some in here are walking so far away fro the question. But it’s cool, we know why. Fear.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi

John is not talking, he's writing. And John is writing that which Jesus instructed him to write, namely: Revelation 2:2 "I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’"

Jesus tells the people of Ephesus twice to repent, and warns only those who overcome or "conquer" will receive life in paradise. Does an eternally saved person need to repent? Has an eternally saved person already overcome/conquered?

Compare that with that which Jesus instructed John to write to the assembly at Philadelphia: Revelation 3:8 “‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name."

It is clear that Jesus requires ongoing repentance, ongoing abiding in Him, ongoing obedience, and ongoing faith in order for ongoing salvation / sanctification. Otherwise, the Christians assembled at Ephesus, who were saved at one point, would not have to turn back again (repent) in order to be saved and receive life in paradise.

He is speaking to the people in writting

he is not talking to John in Boston at the Boston church telling John I know your works, and telling John you left your first love

he is telling the CHURCH in Boston (or wherever you live) that THEY as a GROUP have this issue.

the church I grew up in was full of vibrant believers in the biggining, but in the end, after years of bad teaching after the plaster left. after many people left and went to other churches, or left church altogether, and the older group died, there was so little true believers left that you could tell God was pulling the lamp stand from the church, today that church is no more, I drove by it last year, ,it is a little Mexican church, which is cool as it is still be used (hopefully). But the church on Watkins road is no more,,

that’s what John is talking a out

yurntrying to relate it to John in Boston and that not the context period,

it is the church that carries the lamp stand, individuals of that church are the people that go to the world and draw people to the light (Christ) through the church that holds his name, but not the lamp stand itself,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You can't earn it and you can lose it. Jesus said so in the Gospel according to John and in Revelation.

Then salvation can never be lost. Eternal life is eternal, grace is grace, osas is true, and no child will ever be lost,

thank you for proving me right,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you are saying one cannot be unborn as in born again...you are wrong.

Unborn as in born again, this makes no sense

 

[eternally-gratefull]

WOW......how many times did you plan to be wrong today? Too many I assure you.
No one can earn their way to Heaven.

Your right

and no one unearn their way to heaven either