50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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TMS said:
ignoring the old testament is a good way to be ignorant.
I see no account in all history where God secretly raptures his people away.
I see no evidence in all scripture. i have given so much scripture to show that we can, and will go through that tribulation time, old and new T. But you have already made up your mind.
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You need to study the uniqueness of the Church, the Bride. You need to understand that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is unique to this corpus. And that gentiles are fellow heirs. The Church is a mystery not revealed in OT. Though I believe that it is hinted at. So be careful when you're looking there.....

The Church age (including the fullness of the gentiles) exists from Pentecost to the Rapture.
The Church is ONE and done. Daniels 70th week aka the tribulation speaks only to Israelites.
 
TheDivineWatermark said:
Here's how I've seen it (then, I welcome hearing your take on it):


Among other points of "connection" I've previously mentioned, another one I see relates in the following way... Consider: "[the DOTL time period ARRIVES] as A THIEF [G2812] *in the night*..." (1Th5:2-3)...

... so (as I see it) we should notice this:


Jhn 12:4-6 -

4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot [and in Jn17:12 he is called "the son of perdition," just as is also the one known as "the man of sin"-2Th2:3c], Simon's son, which should betray him,

5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was A THIEF [G2812], and had the bag [also Jn13:29], and bare what was put therein.



Like I've said in past posts, the INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 & Matt24:4/Mk13:5 - G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ('a certain one' bringing deception)--and equivalent to SEAL #1 ('bow'='deception' in many cases)], at the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period, IS "the man of sin"... his "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" (IN HIS TIME... i.e. for the "IN THE NIGHT" [aspect OF the DOTL] time period, which is the 7-yr Trib, so at the START of that).



My two cents cast in... = )




[note: I am not suggesting that the "man of sin" will literally be "Judas Iscariot"]
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..........Interesting that the thief betrayed the Lord at night also.....

My take?
Ouf....So much one could say

The Jews were in a fervent state from the end of the first century BC onwards, in expectation of a Messiah who would overthrow the Romans and end their period under foreign rule. (Which is how they understood Daniel's 70th week)

Josephus states:
“But now, what did most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle (Dan 9:24) that was also found in their sacred writings, how, “about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth.”

So really the post-Christ ferment, which Jesus describes in his 'Olivet' speeches, was 35+ years of madness in Judea culminating in Eleazar the Zealot invading the Temple right before Passover AD67 and killing Ananas the High Priest. That was the cue for Christians to flee to safety. And Eleazar (or the Zealot movement) represents the Lawless One of 2Thess2.

My view of Matthew 24 (for brevity leaving out Luke and Mark) is that Jesus blends his final Coming and his Coming to destroy Jerusalem, and then encrypts the whole with some parables at the end of the chapter. What he is doing is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, a hidden event, by using his final coming as a proxy.

Regarding hidden events - I've tried to explain this on the other thread
 
TMS said:
God did not stop Daniel or Joseph from going through trials but God was with them and as a result their faith was tried and made stronger.
The wrath of God was shown on the Egyptians.
Exo 7:5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.
Exo 7:17 Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.
Exo 7:18 And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.

Many of the plagues would have affected the Israelites. But in the same way that God could have protected, prepared and enabled His people to go through it, He will do the same at the end.

It takes more faith to believe that Jesus will bring us through the trials then to believe that He takes us out of the trials.
Jesus is the Blood that i can paint on my door posts, Jesus is the arc that will bring me through the flood. Jesus will walk with me in the fires.

don't think that you need to be taken away to be saved from His wrath. Jesus is the Key.

Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
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Do you realize that in egypt the wicked and righteous were delivered and taken to the wilderness for severe testing where thousands or millions died.

In the gt it is billions of RIGHTEOUS DIE.

nothing of egypt works for either side except to say it has nothing to do with a postrib rapture.

Jesus actually TAUGHT THE PRETRIB RAPTURE!!!!
VIVIDLY!!!!

NO EGYPT WAS USED.

Jesus used lot,noah, 10 virgins, and his dialogue at the last supper.
Actually taught us doctrine.

Watch any postrib rapture teacher

Amazingly, Jesus teaching is either omitted or reframed.

Bizarre!!!!!
 
randyk said:
Sorry, what I see it says, and what I believe, makes perfect sense to me. Adding the destruction of Antichrist along with the revelation of Antichrist is exactly what Paul means. It's exactly what he says.

I'm not adding anything! He simply states first of all that the Antichrist has to be revealed before he is destroyed. And then Paul makes it unmistakably clear that Christ comes *at the destruction of Antichrist.* I'm not making this up!

2 Thes 2.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Please notice in the bold that the revelation of Antichrist and the destruction of Antichrist both precede Christ's coming. And this is exactly as Daniel portrayed it in ch. 7. The Son of Man comes down from heaven after the reign of Antichrist and *at his destruction,* to set up God's eternal Kingdom, and to save his people. This is the pattern.
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lol
Yes in the pretrib rapture the ac is revealed then the rapture then the 7 yr gt then at the very end the raptured church in heaven, (the one you say is not in heaven), comes WITH JESUS , just as the bible says, and destroys the ac and his army.
Vividly taught.

Nothing else is taught.

That is why you need the ac not revealed at or before the 7 yr gt.

Who do you think the white horse rider is?
You know, the one showing up PRIOR to the gt.

You know, the one revealed BEFORE the gt.
 
FreeGrace2 said:
JerryInBoston said:
That the church is gone pre-opening of the seals is speculative.

Why do you continue to push your very false claim when 2 Thess 2:1 shows the rapture (gathering) with the Second Advent.
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If the rapture is the same as the 2nd coming( which is thoroughly debunked and destroyed), then rev 14 gathering by Jesus on a cloud ( which, btw, is neither the rapture or the 2nd coming), in your mind and false assumptions,
HAS TO BE THE 2nd COMING.
Jesus SITTING on a cloud , under your false doctrine, HAS TO BE THE 2nd coming!!!
Oh....AND DURING THE GT!!!!

Game

Set

Match
 
JerryInBoston said:
When did the pretrib rapture become imminent?
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:) Consider what I put in other posts, on this subject:


"Imminence / Imminent" - how the term is used by scholars [pre-trib viewpoint] -

Post #1388 (pg 70 of a different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4492681


Post #1417 (pg 71 of that thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4492769


Post #1420 (pg 71 of that thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4492850
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
JerryInBoston said:
That the church is gone pre-opening of the seals is speculative.

Then please prove that you DO know what you are talking about by quoting the verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

If you can't do that, then it is YOU who don't know what you're talking about.

If the Bible doesn't say it, it doesn't occur.
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Moot point since
A) none of you have met my challenge to post a single postrib rapture verse.

B) postrib rapture only exists by omitting our verses or reframing them.

Stay on target....your target...the one that we make you go against the word.
You are forced to actually attempt to change the bible.

Show us where Jesus comes on billions of White horses while sitting on a cloud with a sickle in his hand..(.rev 14)
Act1
Mat24
Mat25
1 thes 4
Rev 19
Last supper dialogue
Lot and noah......Jesus 2 examples you say were delivered after the flood and after sodom destroyed (your changing of the bible is shameful)

Your doctrine is way way off.
 
OldSage said:
..........Interesting that the thief betrayed the Lord at night also.....

My take?
Ouf....So much one could say

The Jews were in a fervent state from the end of the first century BC onwards, in expectation of a Messiah who would overthrow the Romans and end their period under foreign rule. (Which is how they understood Daniel's 70th week)

Josephus states:
“But now, what did most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle (Dan 9:24) that was also found in their sacred writings, how, “about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth.”

So really the post-Christ ferment, which Jesus describes in his 'Olivet' speeches, was 35+ years of madness in Judea culminating in Eleazar the Zealot invading the Temple right before Passover AD67 and killing Ananas the High Priest. That was the cue for Christians to flee to safety. And Eleazar (or the Zealot movement) represents the Lawless One of 2Thess2.

My view of Matthew 24 (for brevity leaving out Luke and Mark) is that Jesus blends his final Coming and his Coming to destroy Jerusalem, and then encrypts the whole with some parables at the end of the chapter. What he is doing is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, a hidden event, by using his final coming as a proxy.

Regarding hidden events - I've tried to explain this on the other thread
Click to expand...
We in america have been spared from evil gov brutality and brutality in general.

Enter the democrats.
The brutality and lawlessness is only begun.
 
TheDivineWatermark said:
:) Consider what I put in other posts, on this subject:


"Imminence / Imminent" - how the term is used by scholars [pre-trib viewpoint] -

Post #1388 (pg 70 of a different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4492681


Post #1417 (pg 71 of that thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4492769


Post #1420 (pg 71 of that thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4492850
Click to expand...
From what I understand, the term "but of that day and hour no one knows" carries with it the thought that although the signs have not yet appeared, the time is palpably near to hand nonetheless.

Evidently this term was a common idiom referring to the sighting of the new moon at Rosh Hashanah. Even though the objective SIGN of the new moon had yet to occur......everyone knew that it was going to come to pass inevitably. Furthermore the term seems to be symbolic of the ushering in of the new age of the earthly Lordship of Jesus Christ. This new age beginning of course with the DOTL/Dan 70th week/Rev 6 first seal.
 
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