50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Thewatchman]

Oh? When did you say that? I guess I missed it...?

I have tried to make my charts as user friendly as possible.


I did. And, it is the chart.

That is what the chart is for:

1) an already-assembled collection of Bible verses/passages - the significance of which is present in the patterns-of-comparison (columns and rows, in this case)

2) it keeps me from having to write the same thing over and over and over and...

3) some of my charts are simply too large to post in a thread

Also, for the most part, my charts are composed entirely of Bible verses - arranged in a meaningful way.

This is intentional - because, I want people to see the significance-of-truth in the verses themselves - not just simply from some explanation that I write on the page.

The charts are like opening the Bible to all of the places of scripture relative to the topic at the same time.

If you cannot "make heads or tails" of that --- then, I am not sure what to tell you...

If you are trying to be a teacher you need to make things so your students can understand them. I am not sure about the person that wrote this to you but they may only be a bab in Christ and need a little more milk and not so much meat. Jesus met the people on their level. Thewatchman

 

[ewq1938]

Let me ask you something...

What singular-precise-and-specific thing do you believe marks the actual moment the GT is over?

The Great Tribulation is great persecution of Christians and that ends when the 7th trump sounds signalling the second coming. At that point no Christian can be further persecuted because they will be made immortal then moved upwards to the clouds to join Christ and his second coming army. This is found in various passages like Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 11 and 19 and some others.

 

[GaryA]

Are you perhaps conflating the phrases "great distress in the land [and wrath upon this people]" (Lk21:23,20) with "great tribulation" (Matt24:15,21)? The former being the events surrounding 70ad; the latter being within the far-future trib yrs (namely, the second half of the future 7-yr period, which 7-yr period is "aka" the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 [/4:1 / 1:19c] speaks of, with regard to the "future" aspects of the book of Rev [in contrast to "the things WHICH ARE" aspects]... So the "great tribulation" falling within the years that are commonly called the [7-yr] tribulation period, yet future--This pertains to the SEQUENCE issues in the Olivet Discourse which I've covered in past posts, so won't do so in this post)

Nope. No conflating. Of course, that is your point of view.

I believe the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse actually align naturally and completely.

There is [only] one discourse, not two or more.

Jesus did not tell Matthew and Mark one thing while telling Luke another.

The following verses "go together" - they are "talking about" the exact very same thing:

Matthew 24:15-20
Mark 13:14-18
Luke 21:20-23a

Also:

Matthew 24:21-22
Mark 13:19-20
Luke 21:23b-24

If you look at my Olivet Discourse web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

- each and every row in the chart groups and aligns the verses that "go together"...

It is an erroneous conclusion to think that the same discourse was not given in each account. Yes, what details are present in each account are a little different; however, the idea of a 70 A.D. version and a far-future version of events is just "reaching" to make it fit a desired result.

There is no future 7-year tribulation period in the Bible. Why do you believe it?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The charts are like opening the Bible to all of the places of scripture relative to the topic at the same time.

Hey GaryA, I threw together this "chart" real quick, to show you sort of how I see it (because I think you and I agree on ONE SMALL point, in that, I believe that the "2W's 1260 days" runs concurrently with the first SIX TRUMPETS--see if you can decipher my "chart" below ):


[not sure how this will appear on others' screens... This is very basic... and note: I do see some *overlap* in Seal 7 / Trumpet 1 and then Trumpet 7 (T) / Vial 1 (but that was going to make my drawing too difficult, with what I have to work with here, lol)]


lS--s--s--s--s--s--slT--R--U--M--P--E--TlV--V--V--V--V--V--Vl


--the outer vertical lines represent the beginning and the end of the 7-yr period (totaling 2520 days--aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period per Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c);

--"P" and following (ONLY) is what is called "GREAT tribulation" (the "AOD [singular/singular]" point and following [all the underlined]);

--the 7 letters of the word "T-R-U-M-P-E-T" represent the "7 Trumpets" (the first "six" of which I believe run concurrently with the 2W's "1260 days of their testimony"--their 1260 days STRADDLE the two halves, being distinct from the other references to "1260 days" [see Rev11:14 "2nd Woe is past"]);
the first FOUR Trumpets falling in the first half, the last THREE Trumpets falling in the second half (accompanying each of these last THREE Trumpets is the "three Woes": 5thTr/1stWoe[unto the earth] ... 6thTr/2ndWoe... 7thTr/3rdWoe... per Rev8:13);

--the "P" represents the "MID-trib" 5th Trumpet/1st Woe [unto the earth]

(see Rev9:1 [5th Trumpet (P)--star having fallen--key--bottomless pit (i.e. the first time in the chronology that it's been opened)]...
...and 12:12 [Satan and his angels cast down unto the earth (same idea as "a star having fallen from heaven unto the earth")]...
...and 17:[3,7b]8 ["beast [7 heads-10 horns-same as 13:1 (and 11:7)] that thou sawest... and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit [and go into perdition]..." i.e. not "ascend out of" it prior to 5th Trumpet--key--opened--9:1 [/12:12 [14,6]... when there remains 1260 days to the END of Trib])




Can you "see" how I see it?? (even if you disagree with my view?)



[note to readers: I believe "our Rapture" takes place PRIOR TO these "7 years," so that everything showing in that "chart" above is what FOLLOWS "our Rapture"--I've supplied the Scripture references in other posts...; note also... "chart" is not entirely "proportional," but is a general depiction]

 

[YankeeGalDownUnder1964]

Can you imagine the ABSURDITY of Christians weeping and wailing because their redemption draweth nigh. So why do you love lies more than truth?

the weeping are the jews that have not recognized Jesus as their Savior
Untill the fullness of the Gentiles
maybe if you showed them TRUTH with LOVE ?
show them the right scriptures in the Bible mate
are you Jesus ?
who truly is the accuser
its Satan .. Jesus was the one saying " you love lies but did you know who He was referring too ?
the Unbelieving Jews !
Gentiles are not jews ,
and the only way to lead them is by Love and Truth

Jesus is This LOVE and TRUTH
not us
we are to be led by the Spirit not the flesh
the old saying my 93 year old Christian Grammy told me
"you catch more flies with honey than vinegar

God Bless you

 

[YankeeGalDownUnder1964]

1. Is Jesus returning in judgment. The rapture Jesus comes in the clouds to remove the church and all the believers up into heaven with Him.

2.The gathering is the elect nation of Israel. A restoration to the land they were promised. These will populate the millennial kingdom on the earth for a thousand years.

3. The elect is two fold. Israel is elect among the nations. The church is saved people who are elect in Christ. These are already gathered and not lost among the other nations of the world.

Simple misunderstanding of the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Wise man mate you have been doing your home work
study to shew thy self approved

 

[GaryA]

Not sure you've understood what my point was there (or my past posts on this).

I'm saying that there are TWO distinct "SEE-then-FLEEs"...

1) ONE "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events surrounding 70ad, in Luke 21:23,20 (vv.12-24a/b), which is "BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth pangs just described in vv. 8-11 (and parallel / equivalent to Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8); this one is equivalent to the wording in Matthew 22:7... in Luke 19:41-44... in Luke 21:5-6 / Mk13:1-2... Luke 21:24a ("led away captive into all the nations")... etc (the 70ad events);

2) the OTHER "SEE-then-FLEE" in the "far-future" time-period, FOLLOWING the beginning of birth pangs (that Matt24:4-8 STARTS OUT with, here); what *this* time period covers, ultimately leads up to their being gathered "one by one, o ye children of Israel... to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM" (Matt24:29-31 = Isa27:9,12-13)--the exact OPPOSITE outcome / end. Not to mention how Daniel [OT saint] was told he would "[rest (in death)] and STAND IN THY LOT [i.e. be resurrected ('to stand again' (on the earth)] at the END of the DAYS [at the END of the "days" referred to IN THAT CONTEXT--see vv.6-7,11,1-4...]"... and THAT did NOT take place in the "70ad events," see. [recall "AOD [singular/singular]" Jesus spoke of, is Dan12:11]

There is only one "SEE-then-FLEE" event described in the Olivet Discourse - and, it occurred circa 70 A.D.

There is not a second one waiting to happen in the future.

 

[Thewatchman]

Given all the verses posted by most of the posters here, everyone does.


It doesn't take a departure from this world to escape the Trib. And still you haven't provided any verses that speak of resurrectted and raptured believers departing earth for heaven.


Did you notice the context? You said you read the Bible. Then you should know the context.

Rev 3:10 - 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

It is only those believers who have kept Jesus' command to endure patients who wil be kept from the hour of trial that is coming.

Are you prepared to argue that the rapture is only for some believers?

In fact, God "kept the Israelites from the hour of trial that came upon all of Egypt".


Well, maybe for those who are just "seeing" things. But of course one would also be forced to spiritualize the parable intensely to come up with a parallel to a rapture.

FreeGrace Revelation 3:10 only applies if you understand 3:9 Do you know who those are that are of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not, but do lie. Let me know Thewatchman

 

[GaryA]

You haven't shown that.

It can be seen in the chart.

And Rev 20 refutes it.

How so?

 

[Thewatchman]

Question for everyone that thanks Jesus is going to come and take us to heaven. Why would Jsus take us to heaven when He is going to set up His kingdom here on earth. Zechariah 14:4

 

[GaryA]

The 7th seal judgment is described after the 2 Witnesses arrive. (ch 11). And 11:19 seems to be describing the same events as found in 16:18,21, which is the 7th bowl judgment.

So, the 2 Witnesses preach mostly during the second half of the Trib, and their death is followed by the 7th trumpet, which describes what the 7th bowl describes. So yes, the Second Coming of Christ DOES align with the end of the Trib. Clearly.

Don't get stuck in the rut of thinking that Revelation is a simple chronological listing of End Times events. It is not.

If you pay close attention to the Two Witnesses verses and the Trumpet Event (1-6 in particular) verses - you should see that they coincide - because, the Two Witnesses actually cause those events to occur - by their prophecy and testimony.

 

[GaryA]

I have the Bible. It's in 16:16. Which is just before the 7th bowl.

The point being - it is at/near the end of the Wrath of God being "poured out" on the earth.

 

[GaryA]

What I don't see is any kind of delay between the verses.

So, where do you get your ideas from, since Matt 24,29,30 don't support your 3.5 yr delay

It is not a matter of a delay; rather, it is a matter of things "taking time"...

 

[GaryA]

GaryA said:

The words highlighted above agree with me...

The things described in verse 30 occur after the things in verse 29.

He's too attached to his chart, rather than on what Scripture is clear about.

If his chart is necessary to understand the end times, then everyone who lived before his chart were simply out of luck.

Please see post #4458.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus did not tell Matthew and Mark one thing while telling Luke another.

I'm not saying that's how it went down.

I *am* saying that this is how the Spirit had each of them TO RECORD it, though, see...

...and so the Matthew account is much longer (spanning two whole chapters)...

...and why Matthew's account includes the word "[when] THEREFORE [G3767]" in v.15, that Luke's account does not use (when it comes to the items they were to "SEE--" [...in each instance])

 

[GaryA]

There's NO GAP in the "7 years".

There is NO GAP in the 70 weeks of Daniel, either...

Therefore, there is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period.

 

[GaryA]

He's too attached to his chart, rather than on what Scripture is clear about.

My charts are a representation of what I very clearly see in scripture.

If his chart is necessary to understand the end times, then everyone who lived before his chart were simply out of luck.

One purpose of my charts is to help others see the truth in scripture.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There is NO GAP in the 70 weeks of Daniel, either...

Therefore, there is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period.

I disagree because I see the items in Daniel 9:24-27 as being SEQUENTIAL

(and I showed how each "connects" [to other things in scripture] in past posts, so I won't go into all that here, again )

 

[GaryA]

No
Early in the trib the martyrs are in heaven as billions.

" .....these came out of great tribulation"

Reread all about the slaughter by the ac.
Read about the 4 horsemen.

The entire deal is great tribulation

late in the trib, not early

(after, really)

Remember the martyrs from the Dark Ages? Those are the souls under the altar. The ones they are waiting for are those who are beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

ALL of them are 'tribulation saints'.

The entire deal is great tribulation - from circa 70 A.D. until sometime in our future.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Remember the martyrs from the Dark Ages? Those are the souls under the altar. The ones they are waiting for are those who are beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

The "5th Seal"/and thus "5th Seal martyrs" AND the ones BEHEADED for not worshiping the beast (2nd half of trib, martyrs) are BOTH "killed" DURING / WITHIN the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 [/ 4:1 / 1:19c] speaks of... (i.e. within the 7-yr trib... not a near-2000-yr one )