Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

AandW · Jun 19, 2021

I know people who've accepted Christ and have yet to be filled with the Holy Spirit. No one knows why this is, but it does not mean they're not Saved. They truly understood they were sinners and needed God and accepted His Invitation. They just never felt like they were filled with the Holy Spirit and never feel like God is communicating to them in their own private lives. In my view, that's the Measure of Faith God gives to us. Some are given greater Faith, and some are given just enough to Believe in God and accept Him.

But Speaking in Tongues is a Gift, not a requirement. Having Discernment is a Gift to which many do not have. Many are able to Prophesy where the majority cannot. I would really be shocked if someone claimed to have All Gifts of the Holy Spirit. I might be inclined to even call them a liar.

But isn't it [amazing] that John Wesley saw first hand what is happening in Modern churches and called it Genuine?

AandW · Jun 19, 2021

de-emerald said:

The Amen is because you spoke the Truth, not that we should glorify the Enemy is able to attack Believers in God and cause them to error.

Evmur · Jun 19, 2021

ResidentAlien said:

As you probably know, the Azusa St. revival started in 1906 led by William J. Seymour, who was a student of Charles Parham. Parham's first experience with tongues was in late 1900.

The Azusa revival had all the appearances of a spontaneous outpouring of the Holy Spirit, but Seymour had already been preaching that speaking in tongues was the sign of the baptism in the Holy Spirit (he was taught this by Parham). As in Parham's case, and in just about every case really, there's a certain amount of "priming" that happens first. Seymour was preaching what he'd been taught by Parham.

Some people have the idea that Azusa was the beginning of Pentecostalism. If that's what you believe it's not worth quibbling over. However, there was a lot of groundwork being laid by Parham. It all started with Parham.

Pentecostalism pre dates Parham, you have to argue from scripture. I was saved and baptised in the Holy Spirit in my own home.

de-emerald · Jun 19, 2021

AandW said:

well to be honest with you, You have shown ignorance in other posts to. maybe thats why cs1 called you ignorant. to which he asked you to forgive him for.

but i sence your trying to score points and i think cs1 was right to call you ignorant.

So i would advice you to think twice befor you think.

AandW · Jun 19, 2021

de-emerald said:

Show me my errors then from all of my posts?

AandW · Jun 19, 2021

de-emerald said:

SHOW ME WHERE I MADE ERROR IN CSI'S RESPONSE TO THE PORTION I QUOTED FROM HIS POST?

CS1 said:
they take 1cor 13:8-10 and try to magically say the bible is here so the gifts of the Holy Spirit are done away with. And when called on it they say it is too deep for one to understand or they result to human reasoning and " say " I have not seen anything done today as it was in the New Testament".

ME:
It only reveals true ignorance from them and I will prove it.

1. Paul used 2 forms of terms for Languages
1A. Tongues
1B. Speaking in Tongues

Whenever Paul spoke about the Heavenly Language he ALWAYS used Speaking in Tongues or Speaking in other Tongues. He clarifies there is a difference between Speaking in Tongues and talking in your own Language.

The Verse example in 1 Corinthians 13: 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
...specifies the normal Language.

Verse 8 does not state Speaking in Tongues, it clarifies Tongues only, which is English, Espano, Francais, Deutsch, Mandarin, Swahili, all human Languages.

There's coming a time when knowledge (which today we are more knowledgeable than at any other time) and tongues (all forms of Languages like our human Languages) will cease. Nowhere does this Verse relate to the Gifts of the Spirit!

Why they don't understand this is beyond me, but hey, slow is slow and many people fit that bill mentally!

AandW · Jun 19, 2021

Kind of odd to call me out, make a claim I am full of errors, and then don't have any proofs of what you accused me of.

In most viewpoints, that makes the accuser out to be a LIAR.

Are you a LIAR, de-emerald?

Angela53510 · Jun 20, 2021

de-emerald said:

I'm no troll. I've been at CC for longer than CS1. Longer than most people.

I was defending Aidan from CS1s deliberate attacks and name calling. Then he started attacking me, too, although I have an extensive theological education. Although I stopped believing in tongues 25 years ago, because of what I saw in churches and nonsense like the so-called "Toronto Blessing!"

I care about the gifts of the Spirit, and the fruits of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the foundation of our Christian life on earth. I did a large paper on the Holy Spirit last semester, which confirmed my reliance upon the Holy Spirit is the right direction to go. But, too much emotional exhibitionalism going on in so many churches, instead of the real leading of God.

Here's a gift list I can agree with.

"For just as we have many parts in one body and all the body’s parts do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually parts of one another. 6 However, since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to use them properly: if prophecy, in proportion to one’s faith; 7 if service, in the act of serving; or the one who teaches, in the act of teaching; 8 or the one who exhorts, in the work of exhortation; the one who gives, with generosity; the one who is in leadership, with diligence; the one who shows mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12:4-8
(Prophecy in our day is NOT predicting the future, some kind of paganism. Prophecy is defined as:

"The purpose of the message may be to "edify, exhort and comfort" the members of the Church. In this context, not all prophecies contain predictions about the future. The Apostle Paul teaches in First Corinthians that prophecy is for the benefit of the whole Church and not just of the individual exercising the gift."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy

de-emerald · Jun 20, 2021

Angela53510 said:

I'm no troll. I've been at CC for longer than CS1. Longer than most people.

I was defending Aidan from CS1s deliberate attacks and name calling. Then he started attacking me, too, although I have an extensive theological education. Although I stopped believing in tongues 25 years ago, because of what I saw in churches and nonsense like the so-called "Toronto Blessing!"

I care about the gifts of the Spirit, and the fruits of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the foundation of our Christian life on earth. I did a large paper on the Holy Spirit last semester, which confirmed my reliance upon the Holy Spirit is the right direction to go. But, too much emotional exhibitionalism going on in so many churches, instead of the real leading of God.

Here's a gift list I can agree with.

"For just as we have many parts in one body and all the body’s parts do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually parts of one another. 6 However, since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to use them properly: if prophecy, in proportion to one’s faith; 7 if service, in the act of serving; or the one who teaches, in the act of teaching; 8 or the one who exhorts, in the work of exhortation; the one who gives, with generosity; the one who is in leadership, with diligence; the one who shows mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12:4-8
(Prophecy in our day is NOT predicting the future, some kind of paganism. Prophecy is defined as:

"The purpose of the message may be to "edify, exhort and comfort" the members of the Church. In this context, not all prophecies contain predictions about the future. The Apostle Paul teaches in First Corinthians that prophecy is for the benefit of the whole Church and not just of the individual exercising the gift."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy

It wasnt aimed at you. thanks for posting some nice scripture.

Ive seen cs1 get some really hateful comments in another thread and all im going to say is i sence the same member is here under a differnet user name deliberately bating.

Im sorry to hear youve had dispointment from the penticostal church.

Angela53510 · Jun 20, 2021

AandW said:

This very much depends upon what your definition of the GIFTS are! There are actually a few lists in the Bible, and no one has all of the gifts!

"We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully." Romans 12:6-8

" But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?" 1 Cor 14:3-6

"To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines." 1 Cor 12:8-11

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Eph 4:11-13

The key verse here is 1 Cor. 12:11

"All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."

Not everyone is given every gift. The Holy Spirit determines that. Yet Pentecostals think everyone should speak in tongues!

Why are people not fighting over "acts of service" or "mercy?" Why are people not desperately insisting they have the gift of helps, everyone should?

This is the real hypocrisy! People spend pages defending "tongues," and no one ever mentions the other gifts, except for maybe interpreting tongues and a misunderstanding of what prophesy is!

My husband has the gift of helps. He has been invaluable at our church, volunteering as a handyman, rebuilding the kitchen, and helping at our biannual grounds clean up.

My gift is teaching. I was raised by a teacher, I was trained as a teacher, I taught school for 10 years until I got RA. I've taught Sunday School and women's Bible studies. But it truly is a gift of God, which helps me in many ways.

Let's see all the charismatics identifying their gifts. And I've got news for you- it is only rarely tongues! The church wouldn't run without the many gifts in the lists above. But it would run just fine without tongues. I know, because ii spent 15 years in tongues speaking churches that were nightmares. There were splits, fights, stealing church buildings, and a lot of extremely immature people, just like many (but not all!) charismatics here. I've also been in 4 Baptist churches that didn't have all the people issues, lots of love and friendship, and everyone finding a non-charismatic gift to operate in. Walking away from charismatic churches was the best thing God ever told me to do. No more show-offs and mentally ill people with tongues without interpretation, and no people reading tarot cards or crystal balls (symbolically) thinking they are a prophet foreseeing the future! That's not what a prophet does! And yes, I do believe in the many prophecies of the coming of Christ in the OT. That is why the Bible was written. It is the story of Jesus!

AandW · Jun 20, 2021

AandW said:

Lesson learned, CS1 is toooooooooooooo slow mentally to comprehend I spoke only about what he specifically said towards Verse 8.

CS1 said:
they take 1cor 13:8-10 and try to magically say the bible is here so the gifts of the Holy Spirit are done away with. And when called on it they say it is too deep for one to understand or they result to human reasoning and " say " I have not seen anything done today as it was in the New Testament".

CS1 · Jun 20, 2021

Angela53510 said:

This is very sad when a person says such a thing but really doesn't understand what they are saying. Here is the example:

" I stopped believing in tongues 25 years ago, because of what I saw in churches and nonsense like the so-called "Toronto Blessing!"

You stopped believing in the gifts of the Holy Spirit because you saw those who used the Gifts of the Holy Spirit wrongly?

Very profound statement by one who is so educated and well versed in FAITH?

I guess I should just stop listening to any pastor in a church I Attend because of the error of the ones I saw on TV, huh?

Look at this one:

"I did a large paper on the Holy Spirit last semester, which confirmed my reliance upon the Holy Spirit is the right direction to go. But, too much emotional exhibitionalism going on in so many churches, instead of the real leading of God."

Now we are to throw away our Biblical experience because we have a Resume and School paper on the Holy Spirit that confirms your own bias? And you solely now are the Authtcator and chief of the Holy Spirit.

This is pride and just a clear indication that

1. you have not proven the biblical question I have asked those who say tongues have ceased and using 1cor 13:8-10 as the foundational text as you all do, to show me.

Not of you have. why?

2. because 1cor chapter 12 through 14 is the full context of the gifts of the Holy Spirt which you cannot use three verses in the middle chapter of the three to establish a bias that will stand. If you cannot using all three chapters provided the understanding of 1cor 13:8-10 IN 12 or 14 it is not there.

That which is perfect is not the canonization of the Bible. YOU educated types added that in. AND THINK we just say ok because you wrote and paper?

Then when you are called on it you scream YOUR Being mean !!! But as I have said before and have many times recorded many of those here who have said in man other threads about Pentacostels which I have many times posted before to those who have said the following

1 those are using pagan practices
2. it is Hindu chatter
3. the devil gave you the gift
4. used secular information to discredit the supernatural work of the Holy Spirt such as linguist, occult, buffoons on TV, Your own bad experience.

None of that has or does remove the work and gift of the Holy Spirit seen in the holy and New Testament. it has been shown proven AND GREAT EXAMPLES PROVIDED ANS WHEN WE HAVE THOSE HERE HAVE SAID :

send us videos, give me proof, speak in tongues, and videotape yourself. Why? Because you have a bais.

CS1 · Jun 20, 2021

AandW said:

you see here is another insult yet you get mad when I call you on your hate ). AS you to have issues it seems because I said as you quoted me

they take 1cor 13:8-10 and try to magically say the bible is here so the gifts of the Holy Spirit are done away with.

You need to learn to read too.

AandW · Jun 20, 2021

CS1 said:

Agreed!
But they're saying Tongues ceased according to Verse 8.
I explained Verse 8 is speaking of another form of Tongues called Language, not the Gift of Speaking in Tongues.

Since they refuse to understand Verse 8 does not speak about the Gift of Tongues, it makes them slow to the knowledge of what Verse 8 literally means.

AandW · Jun 20, 2021

AandW said:

Agreed!
But they're saying Tongues ceased according to Verse 8.
I explained Verse 8 is speaking of another form of Tongues called Language, not the Gift of Speaking in Tongues.

Since they refuse to understand Verse 8 does not speak about the Gift of Tongues, it makes them slow to the knowledge of what Verse 8 literally means.

That's not hateful, that is just a FACT!

Aidan1 · Jun 20, 2021

CS1 said:

This is very sad when a person says such a thing but really doesn't understand what they are saying. Here is the example:

" I stopped believing in tongues 25 years ago, because of what I saw in churches and nonsense like the so-called "Toronto Blessing!"

You stopped believing in the gifts of the Holy Spirit because you saw those who used the Gifts of the Holy Spirit wrongly?

Very profound statement by one who is so educated and well versed in FAITH?

I guess I should just stop listening to any pastor in a church I Attend because of the error of the ones I saw on TV, huh?

Look at this one:

"I did a large paper on the Holy Spirit last semester, which confirmed my reliance upon the Holy Spirit is the right direction to go. But, too much emotional exhibitionalism going on in so many churches, instead of the real leading of God."

Now we are to throw away our Biblical experience because we have a Resume and School paper on the Holy Spirit that confirms your own bias? And you solely now are the Authtcator and chief of the Holy Spirit.

This is pride and just a clear indication that

1. you have not proven the biblical question I have asked those who say tongues have ceased and using 1cor 13:8-10 as the foundational text as you all do, to show me.

Not of you have. why?

2. because 1cor chapter 12 through 14 is the full context of the gifts of the Holy Spirt which you cannot use three verses in the middle chapter of the three to establish a bias that will stand. If you cannot using all three chapters provided the understanding of 1cor 13:8-10 IN 12 or 14 it is not there.

That which is perfect is not the canonization of the Bible. YOU educated types added that in. AND THINK we just say ok because you wrote and paper?

Then when you are called on it you scream YOUR Being mean !!! But as I have said before and have many times recorded many of those here who have said in man other threads about Pentacostels which I have many times posted before to those who have said the following

1 those are using pagan practices
2. it is Hindu chatter
3. the devil gave you the gift
4. used secular information to discredit the supernatural work of the Holy Spirt such as linguist, occult, buffoons on TV, Your own bad experience.

None of that has or does remove the work and gift of the Holy Spirit seen in the holy and New Testament. it has been shown proven AND GREAT EXAMPLES PROVIDED ANS WHEN WE HAVE THOSE HERE HAVE SAID :

send us videos, give me proof, speak in tongues, and videotape yourself. Why? Because you have a bais.

Where Angela said she stops believing in the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
She is talking from tongues. Are tongues are the only gifts of the Spirit?

And be honest, you would not doubt if someone claimes he has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaKing in tongues and in the same time he is proclaiming the RCC doctrines?

You would not doubt if someone claimes to received the baptism with the Holy Spirit with the gift of speaking in tongues and beside their are Actions which you can find in spiritsm, too?

CS1, I have nothing against you personell.
I cant only not accept a teaching which is manmade and tells me that I dont have the Holy Spirit, because I dont speak in tongues.
And when I ask for a biblical proof for this teaching, nobody is able to show me.

CS1 · Jun 20, 2021

AandW said:

I disagree the context of tongues was established in chapter 12 which was from the Holy Spirit as Paul clarified in chapter 14.

The word Tongues in chapter 13 :1 = glōssa the same as it is in 12 and 14

In 1cor 13:2

prophēteia which is the same as what was said in chapter 12 for prophesying

IF you read chapter 13: 1-2 from the understanding of Chapter 12 that was already given and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Then you will see clearly the parallel scripture of chapter 13:1-2 that says

1cor 13:1-2:

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Verse 8 of chapter 13 says:

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

in verses 1 & 2 they have tongues & prophecy which was from chapter 12 context = the gifts of the Holy Sprit

1cor 13 verse 8 says tongues & prophecies. Why would the context given in chapter 12 and verses 1 & 2 chapter 13 change in verses 8-10?

And then go back to gifts of the Holy Spirit in chapter 14?

It did not.

CS1 · Jun 20, 2021

Aidan1 said:

what are you trying to have me help you attack the RCC now? I don't care about a person claiming they have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaks in tongues and at the same time thwy is proclaiming the RCC doctrines?

FYI the RCC doctrine is wrong in the context of that doctrine example would be the error of the doctrine Transubstantiation.

FYI there are cathloics who are saved and speak in tongues as I was one.

AandW · Jun 20, 2021

CS1 said:

And yet, many have translated it to mean:
Strong's Concordance
glóssa: the tongue, a language
Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Definition: the tongue, a language
Usage: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).
^
This portion matters the most:
Usage: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

Love never ends.
But as for prophecies,
they will come to an end;
as for languages, they will cease;
as for knowledge, it will come to an end.

Love never fails. Now if there are prophecies, they will be done away with. If there are languages, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will be done away with.

Love will never cease. But though there are prophecies, they will be abolished. Though there are languages, they will stop. Though there is knowledge, it will be abolished.

Social affection will never fail: but as for prophecies, they shall be out of use; as for languages, they shall cease; as for knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Love will never die out. If there is inspired preaching, it will pass away. If there is speaking, it will cease. If there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will be done away with. Where there are various languages, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will be done away with.

Charity never faileth: but whether there are prophecies, they shall fail; whether there are languages, they shall cease; whether there is knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be done away with; if there are languages, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be brought to an end.

Love never fails; if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if now exist speakings, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will soon be set aside;

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will be done away with. Where there are various languages, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will be done away with.

AandW · Jun 20, 2021

γλῶσσα , Ion. γλάσσα , Herod.3.84, al., SIG1002.7 (Milet.), Schwyzer 692 (Chios), Att. γλῶττα , ης, ἡ,

II. language, “ἄλλη δ᾽ ἄλλων γ. μεμιγμένη” Od.19.175, cf. Il.2.804; γλῶσσαν ἱέναι speak a language or dialect, Hdt.1.57; γ. Ἑλληνίδα, Δωρίδα ἱέναι, Id.9.16, Th.3.112, cf. A.Pers.406, Ch.564; “γλῶσσαν νομίζειν” Hdt.1.142, 4.183; “γλώσσῃ χρῆσθαι” Id.4.109; “κατὰ τὴν ἀρχαίαν γ.” Arist.Rh.1357b10; dialect, “ἡ Ἀττικὴ γ.” Demetr.Eloc.177; but also “Δωρὶς διάλεκτος μία ὑφ᾽ ἥν εἰσι γ. πολλαί” Tryph. ap. Sch.D.T.p.320 H.
2. obsolete or foreign word, which needs explanation, Arist. Rh.1410b12, Po.1457b4, Plu.2.406f: hence Γλῶσσαι, title of works by Philemon and others.
3. people speaking a distinct language, LXX.Ju.3.8 (pl.), interpol. in Scyl.15.

Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

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