How do you explain away the fact that Paul wrote "at the last trumpet"? As far as I can see, the witnesses' rising is not at the 7th trumpet.
Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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Yes, of course, but in my understand the crucifixion of JESUS would never happen in Daniel 70th, it because in this week the people of the satanic Prince that shall come will rule the week 70th by entire, by 7 years. By the way, it is the last week of the existence of this current Devil's world.
Daniel 9:v.26-27 CJB-Complete Jewish Bible
26 Then, AFTER the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing... 27 He -the EVIL Prince - will make a strong covenant with leaders for ONE week [of years] - the week 70th. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.” - 1,290 days -
The GOD's people must be careful and get ready. In my vision, the period of the last week will fulfil in near future, I would say even in this last decade. The week 70th is within this last decade of the Devil's world.
Interesting. "A fake pre-trib rapture and it will be done by the anti-Christ."
It never even crossed my mind that that snti-Christ or Satan would be capable of some sort of fake rapture. You're onto something here.
The anti-Christ will probably be familiar with Christian rapture doctrine and, as people are being disappeared, he could possibly use the pre-trib rapture as leverage to explain away why people are 'disappearin", but in reality being martyred.
Wow.. mind-blowing.
Yep.
Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do"
Rev 19:20 "the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
the mark of the beast"
2Th 2:3-9 "that man of sin" "whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
We aren't told what miracles these will be but certainly he can rapture people up to the clouds or a false heaven and return with them and he could even make then feel like they are immortal.
The only issues with a fake pretrib rapture are some impossible to explain things.Interesting. "A fake pre-trib rapture and it will be done by the anti-Christ."
It never even crossed my mind that that snti-Christ or Satan would be capable of some sort of fake rapture. You're onto something here.
The anti-Christ will probably be familiar with Christian rapture doctrine and, as people are being disappeared, he could possibly use the pre-trib rapture as leverage to explain away why people are 'disappearin", but in reality being martyred.
Wow.. mind-blowing.
1. a pretrib rapture supposedly takes ALL believers at the same time. Not in increments. It isn't physically possible for any one government to "dispatch" all believers all over the world at the same time.
2. oh, and btw, the a/c doesn't even begin his own rulership over the earth until the last half of the tribulation. So he would have no pretrib power to do anything before the trib begins.
1) Jesus does not marry a building.
2) Persecution and escape.
it is not either/or
many millions have gone through persecution no matter what their eschatology.
rabbit trail thinking one groups end times leaning is some magic blanket that is their insulator for persecution.
That's a good point, but he comes "after the working of Satan" and has power to do miracles. This is really a question of how much miracle power does the devil have?
Also, do you think the a/c will be known of or have some kind of presence prior to being revealed as to who he actually is prior to taking up official role as a/c?
That's what she said
Seriously tho,... and using Kirk Cameron to further his agenda... that's just downright sinister
Naw, it's more "sinister" than that.
I see it more like the scenario I spelled out in another thread, quite some time back:
Post #404 (for the sake of ILLUSTRATION: you can either pretend you are "Harry / the Christian" taken in the "[pre-trib] Rapture"... or place yourself in the shoes [/role] of "your unsaved friend/neighbor" who's talking about you/Harry [after the fact], in the following illustration) - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...-restrains-the-antichrist.195880/post-4447267
...more like that...
Oh right on!!!!
...and to prove it, those angels were fake that rescued Lot prejudgement.
fake! ....Just look at what happened to his wife!!!!!
But the irony is ...YOU ARE ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR THE WHITE HORSE RIDER
These were my thoughts as well (re: that point).
You put it better than I was going to...
Paul wrote that before the book of Revelation was written by John. Therefore it is not possible that Paul could have in mind any of the trumpets John saw. Neither the first, or the seventh. What then would Paul be referring too? Something from the Old Testament? As we research references in the OT we see that Paul was referring to those kinds of divine announcements in prophesy.
Yep, and then it'll be all like, "bow to this doctrine or die..." only not so much just passive aggressively
Revelation 17:v.1-3 and 6 and 15- It was around year 95 AD - the events described are of future
Come hither; I will shew unto thee the Judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured Beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore (the WOMAN) sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. -Gentile peoples - And the verse 3 above reveals the woman rides upon a Beast full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns, that is the Beast of sea. The roots of this satanic Beast are in the first century, and in ex-true Church of Rome which apostatized completely, according 1John 2:v.18-19:
1 John 2:v.18-21-KJV
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
Above the roots of Antichrist's according Scriptures, however, the satanic spirit of Antichrist manifested itself since the birth of JESUS, of course. Later it was just growing and growing, and it grows until today, but the end of them is coming, it's very close. Hallelujah!
What prevails is the Word of GOD. The Word is GOD.
In fact the Everlasting Spirit of GOD is a devouring/ a consuming FIRE. The prophet Isaiah left very clear:
The people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the FIRE. Hear, ye that are far off -Gentile peoples-, what I have done; and, ye that are near - Jewish people, people of Israel- , acknowledge my might. The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites.
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
That doesn't stop anyone from explaining the pretrib rapture but
God saves individuals, not groups, seeing that (true) salvation is personal and indeed probably more effective that way. If you can convince 39 individuals, that are especially within a group, into having a nightcap of vodka and toxin and then go lie down until the spaceships come, then, I'm not sure sure if the sky is the limit regarding what people can be convinced of, especially as a group.
Influence is sometimes considered to be synonymous with power.
Think that the matter needs to be analized more deeply according Scriptures.
Matthew 8:v.21-22
21 And another of his disciples said unto Him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Revelation 3:v.1
These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Oh... and I forgot about this one I had put, too... (illustration / scenario, as I see it), at the BOTTOM HALF of this post:
Post #486 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...lessed-hope-of-the-saints.195611/post-4451282
You are right, and I endorse what you said: "It could be argued that all 4 of them are already in play."
Well, their appearance is prophetic.
The white horse, for example, the rider that sat on the white horse has a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. (What is a bow for? According the Word of GOD -the Word is GOD- , a bow is exceedingly important spiritually for the white horse rider, as is prophetically revealed in Psalms 45.
Reading Psalms 45:v.1to 5
1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king (JESUS is the King): my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3 Gird thy Sword upon thy thigh (Revelation 19), O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty RIDE prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine ARROWS (to use with his bow) are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies (who are the enemies of the KING-JESUS? There are legions of them) ; whereby the people fall under thee.
But who is the white horse rider who fights in a FIRST moment -Revelation 6:v.2- with a simple bow (the arrows are the righteous Judgment of GOD) , and later he will use his sharp Sword in the War - Revelation 19.
I see that this warrior , the white horse rider, is Michael, who will cause the APPEARANCE of the Great Tribulation on the Earth, and his manifestation will cause even a resurrection, according Daniel 12:v.1-3 and 1Thessalonians 4:v.16.
Daniel 12:v.1-3
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time (the current time of Apocalypse): and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Isaiah prophesied about this resurrection, even his own resurrection:
Isaiah 26:v.19-21-CJB - Complete Jewish Bible:
19 Your dead will live, my corpses will rise;
awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust;
for your dew is like the morning dew,
and the earth will bring the ghosts to life.
20 Come, my people, enter your rooms,
and shut your doors behind you.
Hide yourselves for a little while
until the wrath is past.
21 For see! Adonai emerges from his place
to punish those on earth for their sin.
Then the earth will reveal the blood shed on it
and no longer conceal its slain.)
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
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The red horse rider tends to be Trump. Revelation 6:v.4
Matthew 24:v.21-22 - JESUS explains better:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.<--->If not, there should no flesh be saved.
Jesus is the one with the sword in Revelation 19, not Michael. Neither of them are the first seal rider with the bow.