But who actually throws the beast #1 into the fiery lake? Saints, or Christ?
v.26 speaks of the saints taking away the beast's dominion, and consumes and destroys IT. Doesn't say they kill the beast or throw him into a fiery lake.
50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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You're naïve if you think Christians can't be naïve!
Paul had taught the Thessalonians about Christ's coming, and there remained a need for more teaching, since some had misrepresented Christ's coming. Simple. Where's your wisdom, Old Sage? Jesus himself warned his Disciples that this kind of deception would follow his ministry. Was Jesus naive even after he had taught his Disciples, failing to explore every element of that deception? No, he equipped Paul, through the Holy Spirit, to deal with it when it came.
See above. Not everything is covered in the 1st go around. Sometimes we have to deal with things as they come up. Then we can look back and realize we'd been warned. Sometimes we need help with that warning! It seems you still don't get the reason for the warning about "False Christs?"
Aren't you being a little over dramatic here? I never called this a crisis of great proportion! It was simply a problem the Church needed to deal with, such as we need to deal with Jehovah's Witnesses today. Nobody is having a heart attack over their existence. They simply need to be exposed as imposters.
The fact we have confidence in having eternal life does not free us from problems in the present life. We have obligations to be on the alert. So said Jesus, right? Just because we're saved doesn't mean that Christians don't make bonehead mistakes, such as I made when I got into a Christian cult in S. CA many years ago. I had to extract myself, and went through some mind-bending changes. Deception is indeed a heavy mental thing--it is a spiritual bondage.
But as I said, I don't necessarily see the application of Jesus' Coming in this cult the same way it *should* be seen. They may have viewed the very existence of their cult as evidence that they were, in some strange sense, Jesus' Coming.
Is this really so unbelievable? We have had groups all through history claiming to be in some sense the coming of the Kingdom, or predictors of the imminent coming of the Kingdom. Even today we have religious cults that claim to be God's Kingdom either already here on earth or coming to be on earth through them.
I suppose I just have more experience with the cults than you do? I've seen them up close, and have actually been *in them.*
It seems my demise has been grossly misrepresented.
It happens....You're entitled to your opinion. I hope you've convinced yourself my view is "dead?" Then you won't have to respond to it anymore!
Actually, you are the one doing the slandering. And if you agree on 99% of the verses with your fellow Pretribbers, then you're basically "cookie cutter" Christians. You follow one another mindlessly.
I don't actually believe that, because I think better of you than that. But it is evidence that you're following a playbook, even if you don't recognize where it started and how it's been passed down to you.
Well I agree on the power of cults, the power of the group, etc.You're naïve if you think Christians can't be naïve!
Jesus himself warned his Disciples that this kind of deception would follow his ministry. Was Jesus naive even after he had taught his Disciples, failing to explore every element of that deception? No, he equipped Paul, through the Holy Spirit, to deal with it when it came.
See above. Not everything is covered in the 1st go around. Sometimes we have to deal with things as they come up. Then we can look back and realize we'd been warned. Sometimes we need help with that warning! It seems you still don't get the reason for the warning about "False Christs?"
Aren't you being a little over dramatic here? I never called this a crisis of great proportion! It was simply a problem the Church needed to deal with, such as we need to deal with Jehovah's Witnesses today. Nobody is having a heart attack over their existence. They simply need to be exposed as imposters.
The fact we have confidence in having eternal life does not free us from problems in the present life. We have obligations to be on the alert. So said Jesus, right? Just because we're saved doesn't mean that Christians don't make bonehead mistakes, such as I made when I got into a Christian cult in S. CA many years ago. I had to extract myself, and went through some mind-bending changes. Deception is indeed a heavy mental thing--it is a spiritual bondage.
But as I said, I don't necessarily see the application of Jesus' Coming in this cult the same way it *should* be seen. They may have viewed the very existence of their cult as evidence that they were, in some strange sense, Jesus' Coming.
Is this really so unbelievable? We have had groups all through history claiming to be in some sense the coming of the Kingdom, or predictors of the imminent coming of the Kingdom. Even today we have religious cults that claim to be God's Kingdom either already here on earth or coming to be on earth through them.
I suppose I just have more experience with the cults than you do? I've seen them up close, and have actually been *in them.*
It seems my demise has been grossly misrepresented.
You're entitled to your opinion. I hope you've convinced yourself my view is "dead?" Then you won't have to respond to it anymore!
You are welcome to share those experiences, I find cults interesting.
But I don't see Paul praising the Thessalonikans if they are on CultWatch....just my 2 cents
Maybe because the beast and the antichrist are not the same
You're naïve if you think Christians can't be naïve!
Jesus himself warned his Disciples that this kind of deception would follow his ministry. Was Jesus naive even after he had taught his Disciples, failing to explore every element of that deception? No, he equipped Paul, through the Holy Spirit, to deal with it when it came.
See above. Not everything is covered in the 1st go around. Sometimes we have to deal with things as they come up. Then we can look back and realize we'd been warned. Sometimes we need help with that warning! It seems you still don't get the reason for the warning about "False Christs?"
Aren't you being a little over dramatic here? I never called this a crisis of great proportion! It was simply a problem the Church needed to deal with, such as we need to deal with Jehovah's Witnesses today. Nobody is having a heart attack over their existence. They simply need to be exposed as imposters.
The fact we have confidence in having eternal life does not free us from problems in the present life. We have obligations to be on the alert. So said Jesus, right? Just because we're saved doesn't mean that Christians don't make bonehead mistakes, such as I made when I got into a Christian cult in S. CA many years ago. I had to extract myself, and went through some mind-bending changes. Deception is indeed a heavy mental thing--it is a spiritual bondage.
But as I said, I don't necessarily see the application of Jesus' Coming in this cult the same way it *should* be seen. They may have viewed the very existence of their cult as evidence that they were, in some strange sense, Jesus' Coming.
Is this really so unbelievable? We have had groups all through history claiming to be in some sense the coming of the Kingdom, or predictors of the imminent coming of the Kingdom. Even today we have religious cults that claim to be God's Kingdom either already here on earth or coming to be on earth through them.
I suppose I just have more experience with the cults than you do? I've seen them up close, and have actually been *in them.*
It seems my demise has been grossly misrepresented.
You're entitled to your opinion. I hope you've convinced yourself my view is "dead?" Then you won't have to respond to it anymore!
Paul is really talking specifically about the Second Coming, whereas Jesus was warning his Jewish disciples about various
subversive attempts within Judea to destroy the Church, through false Messianic movements, and then during the Roman War,
just desperate movements to deal with the destruction of the state.
Paul makes a very specific statement and I think you do it a slight disservice to bung it in the CultWatch bin...
Then you do not understand totally what GOD calls the GREAT TRIBULATION. It will be a hundred times worse than THIS TIME.
^ ...and the text says that by that MID-trib point (per the chpt 12 context), "13 ... the woman which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena / arren]."; ...so the birth (and 'caught up' part) is "past" by that point...
[... I don't believe this is speaking of Jesus' birth, either... just like Micah 5:3 is not (though Micah 5:2 IS...)]
[... I don't believe this is speaking of Jesus' birth, either... just like Micah 5:3 is not (though Micah 5:2 IS...)]
First there was Adam of the flesh, then there was Adam of the spirit.
and if the male is Jesus, we are The body of Christ, Jesus is The head of the church.
This is not contradictory at all.
"3 Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth [i.e. identifying the 'she'] hath brought forth: then the REMNANT OF his brethren shall return unto the the children of Israel." (same "remnant" spoken of in Rev12:17--Note to readers: this "remnant" is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" being spoken of, in either Micah 5:3 here, or in Rev12:17 )
)
her seed meaning many children,which keep the command of God."3 Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth [i.e. identifying the 'she'] hath brought forth: then the REMNANT OF his brethren shall return unto the the children of Israel." (same "remnant" spoken of in Rev12:17--Note to readers: this "remnant" is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" being spoken of, in either Micah 5:3 here, or in Rev12:17
^ "13 [he persecuted]... the woman which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [arsena / arren]," (brought forth) PRIOR TO that MID-trib point (per Rev12), when THEREAFTER v.17 pertains to the REMNANT OF her seed (located on the earth, just as "the woman" is--same as in Micah 5:3b), see... (not to the "arsena / arren" / male [SINGULAR] she HAD BROUGHT FORTH who had been "caught up" [and that's not speaking of JESUS])
@soberxp , to your question... Since "the woman" (Rev12 and Micah5:3) is a corporate being, I see no problem with "13... [the woman which HAD BROUGHT FORTH] the male [arsena / arren - G730]"--the male [singular]"--also as a corporate being (i.e. "a body made up of many members"--see 1Cor12:12, for example)
I'm not arguing with you. I'm explaining it.
Jesus is the male, and we are The body of Jesus Christ,so he is the male, and we are The seed of her.
Do you agree?
I spent about 3 years listening to weekly "The Bible Answerman" programs from Walter Martin when I lived in S. CA. It gave me an amazingly good insight into the cults, right after I had extracted myself from the Local Church.
The Local Church is not its actual name--Witness Lee, a Chinese gentleman, who escaped Communism in China, founded a denomination that he actually denied was a denomination. He in fact disowned any name for his denomination whatsoever, calling his following the "church in Anaheim," the "church in Las Vegas, " the "church in New York," etc. He thought the church should not have a name and should be one in each city, excluding all denominations.
I got into the group because I had been a student of Watchman Nee, and knew that Witness Lee had been his associate in China. What I didn't know is that Lee had changed from Nee, and had indeed started a new cult!
Walter Martin's organization, Christian Research Institute, sponsored a pamphlet by the Passantinos, who exposed it as a cult. I read it and responded, angrily, by letter to Dr. Walter Martin in 10 pages! Then I proceeded to move from the Pacific NW, due to it raining on my motorcycle relentlessly, and find a home in S. California, close to where Lee ministered and where Stream Ministries was located. Stream was the publishing outfit that published books by both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.
I chose to live in Anaheim because that's where this "Local Church" was based. But I after a few months became convinced myself that it was indeed a cult. They thought of themselves as superior. Martin's group pointed out that they were modalistic in their theology. Another group, Spiritual Counterfeits Project, out of Berkeley, claimed they were "non-Christian," for which SCP was successfully sued.
So yes, they are Christian, but yes, they are also a cult. To my disappointment, a few years back I heard from Gretchen Passantino, the one who had written that tract against Lee's group for CRI. She and the successor to the Bible Answerman, Hank Hanegraaff had decided the "Local Church" was no longer a cult!
We were emailing about this when she stopped writing. I later saw in the news Gretchen died! So I never got the whole scoop. But I'm absolutely convinced that even though the cult has stopped being modalistic in their theology, they are still a cult! They are still eccentric and elitist. They have a strange spirit, coupled together with any possible genuine spirituality.
This is just a human interest story, but it shows I have a personal interest in cultic thinking. And I empathize with Paul in his concern to deal with a cultic group *within Christianity* that was making a pretty outlandish claim.
But then again, take a look at what Democrats ran on in the last election and won!! Open the borders to the contagious, the terrorists, the gangs. Spend money in the trillions to make future generations laden with debt. Kill our energy industries, except the ones that don't work long term so we are slaves to the Middle East and to Russia.
Outlandish statements can always be rationalized away! See Biden.
I disagree only if [SINCE] you're referring to "the remnant / rest [plural] of her seed" in v.17 which will still be on the earth (as "the woman" herself will also still be located) after she "HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [arsena / arren - SINGULAR (tho a 'corporate' body as I see it)]]" at some point PRIOR TO this MID-trib context (Rev12), which "male [SINGULAR--G730]" had also already been "caught up" PRIOR TO this point in the chronology... (i.e. at some point PRIOR TO mid-trib)...
IOW, "the male [singular]" will NOT be located on the earth, as "the woman" and "the remnant /rest [plural] of her seed" ARE shown to be located, see. (Micah 5:3's "remnant / rest of" = Rev12:17's "remnant / rest [plural] of her seed"--not speaking of the ONE having PREVIOUSLY been birthed and "caught UP" [no longer located on the earth], by this point in the chronology, see...)
^ "For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ" - 1Cor12:12 [the "ONE BODY"--"the BODY OF CHRIST"--"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])]
[Rev12:17 has "the remnant / rest" as "PLURAL"... however, WE are the "corporate" "ONE BODY"... NOT "the remnant / rest [plural] of..." (v.17) in this Rev12 CONTEXT, see]
[Rev12:17 has "the remnant / rest" as "PLURAL"... however, WE are the "corporate" "ONE BODY"... NOT "the remnant / rest [plural] of..." (v.17) in this Rev12 CONTEXT, see]