50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[randyk]

I think he is some kind of engineer or something
Obviously high iq.

I am low iq.

Very low.

But have a high iq God.

I've been on debate groups like this for perhaps 20 years, since Usenet. I have yet to run into one truly-dumb person on these kinds of forums. I think humility is great, but do give yourself proper credit. Having a high IQ in God is very smart, and I completely agree with you.

 

[Mem]

Because that is the logical assumption.

if it were the logical assumption, then it would follow that Christ's coming would be pre-trib, since the unfaithful and therefore deceived are those marked and the faithful are those beheaded...but if Christ's coming destroys the antichrist...how can he, then, commence his campaign

 

[randyk]

I think it says changed in a moment.

Not happens in a moment

Same thing, as I understand it.

 

[Absolutely]

I'm sure that's why the Christian Church for 2000 years has largely seen Jesus' Coming as a single event? Splitting his Coming up into "2 Comings" is relatively recent in history. Just think: all of those blind Christians who read the Scriptures and completely missed the dual coming of Jesus! 1800 years and the Holy Spirit failed to convey to them what *you know!*

Reconcile acts 1 with rev19 and rev 14.

.....dont just generalize it away

 

[randyk]

if it were the logical assumption, then it would follow that Christ's coming would be pre-trib, since the unfaithful and therefore deceived are those marked and the faithful are those beheaded...but if Christ's coming destroys the antichrist...how can he, then, commence his campaign

I think this Antichristian persecution will largely be a European event, very much like Hitler's control over Europe. What we're reading is a general policy that Antichrist will initiate--not that it will murder every last Christian on the planet. There must be nations that ultimately decide they can oppose Antichrist, even if at 1st they cannot touch him. After 1260 days there will be a war, and there must be opponents.

I believe the nations will turn against this European superpower, resulting in a global nuclear war. Since we've had the Nazi disaster, and two world wars, nothing indicates Christians have to be gone.

 

[Absolutely]

Quote """In other words, this is not an itinerary in which 1st the dead rise, and then later, at 2:00 AM, the living join in the celebration."""

The dead rise first THEN the living

That is sequence.

That dynamic is framed in time.

One....then .....the other.

I do not NEED a fixed time.

How he does it is ok with both me and the bible.

No conflict
No smoking gun.

 

[randyk]

Like I said my TV Internet browser is on the fritz so I'm taking a timeout. But TDW is doing all the heavy lifting. He certainly does not need my help that's for sure......

He really needs to think for himself without all of the "encouragement." After all, if both of you are wrong, he needs to lead you in the right direction.

Actually, if you'll give yourself proper credit, and read for yourself, you'll find that DW is indeed wrong. And maybe you can set *him* on the right course?

 

[randyk]

Quote """In other words, this is not an itinerary in which 1st the dead rise, and then later, at 2:00 AM, the living join in the celebration."""

The dead rise first THEN the living

That is sequence.

That dynamic is framed in time.

One....then .....the other.

I do not NEED a fixed time.

How he does it is ok with both me and the bible.

No conflict
No smoking gun.

I explained it. If it doesn't satisfy you, fine. I just want you to know I'm not "dodging" anything. I'm giving you my honest opinion, and my real conviction.

 

[Mem]

Ty for responding to me randyk, I too often imagine a regard of insignificance and was beginning to think I'd walked in on grown men getting way too emotionally involved with one another... and would like their privacy... (looking for the embarrassed emoji)

I think this Antichristian persecution will largely be a European event, very much like Hitler's control over Europe. What we're reading is a general policy that Antichrist will initiate--not that it will murder every last Christian on the planet. There must be nations that ultimately decide they can oppose Antichrist, even if at 1st they cannot touch him. After 1260 days there will be a war, and there must be opponents.

I believe the nations will turn against this European superpower, resulting in a global nuclear war. Since we've had the Nazi disaster, and two world wars, nothing indicates Christians have to be gone.

I gather, then, that you do suppose the (initial? revelation of the antichrist is only for believers, who would then be fully aware of who is calling for their beheading, even though scripture describes the disclosure of the antichrist happening by "the brightness of His coming"?

 

[Runningman]

Precious friend(s) who WILL BE STAYING ON EARTH!:

"And The LORD Shall Deliver me from every evil work, and Will Preserve
me unto his HEAVENLY kingdom: to Whom Be GLORY For Ever And Ever.
Amen." (2_Timothy 4 : 18 KJB!) Amen?

2 Timothy 4:18 doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. Paul didn't mean they he would never face attacks, hardship, of tribulation. Obviously, Paul went through a lot of physical persecution and spiritual battles.

However, wasn't Paul eventually delivered from them all? Sometimes, is martyrdom the deliverance from the tribulation that is in the world?

Philippians 1:21
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

This may be hard to take, but we don't get to customize our rapture experience. The Bible presents a post-trib rapture; therefore, just because you believe in a pre-trib rapture the Bible doesn't change to fit whatever you want.

I'm just going to tell you the truth. If we are still living during the mark of the beast period we will have to make a choice to reject it at all costs no matter what the consequences. Rapture doesn't come until later on.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

It sounds as if you're using the common Pretrib argument dividing the "manifestation" at the 2nd Coming from the Rapture event, which you don't believe is a "manifestation." Rather, it is a "secret coming?"...

...So it goes like this: Concerning the Coming of Jesus for the Church, which is not his manifestation to the world, but only a secret coming for the Church, I want you to know that 1st will be the "Departure" of the Church, and then the revelation of the Man of Sin, and finally the manifestation of Jesus at his Coming. Right?

Let us take embark on this journey, and possibly find God's Answer, shall we?

Precious friend(s), it is NO SECRET "What God Can Do!" Amen?
"In the beginning God Created The Heaven AND the earth!"

q: WHY Did God not simply Say: "...Created the [ONE] universe..."?
Well, is it because HE Commands us to:
"...Rightly Divide HIS Word Of Truth..." (2 Timothy 2 : 15 KJB!)?

q2: Is it not a Distinct Possibility "That God Has TWO Purposes"?
One "for the earth"?

Rightly Divided From “Things That DIFFER!”:

The Other ONE "For Heaven"?

It all gets very complicated...

Only IF WE humans "wrongly Combine" What God Commands us to Rightly

Divide, eh?

Precious friend(s), what do you say? Shall we continue with this?
We ALL do wish to "show ourSELF Approved Unto God," Correct?

Be Blessed!

 

[randyk]

Let us take embark on this journey, and possibly find God's Answer, shall we?

Precious friend(s), it is NO SECRET "What God Can Do!" Amen?
"In the beginning God Created The Heaven AND the earth!"

q: WHY Did God not simply Say: "...Created the [ONE] universe..."?
Well, is it because HE Commands us to:
"...Rightly Divide HIS Word Of Truth..." (2 Timothy 2 : 15 KJB!)?

q2: Is it not a Distinct Possibility "That God Has TWO Purposes"?
One "for the earth"?

Rightly Divided From “Things That DIFFER!”:

The Other ONE "For Heaven"?

I would have to have the Gift of Interpreting Tongues to understand your point here!

 

[randyk]

Ty for responding to me randyk, I too often imagine a regard of insignificance and was beginning to think I'd walked in on grown men getting way too emotionally involved with one another... and would like their privacy... (looking for the embarrassed emoji)



I gather, then, that you do suppose the (initial? revelation of the antichrist is only for believers, who would then be fully aware of who is calling for their beheading, even though scripture describes the disclosure of the antichrist happening by "the brightness of His coming"?

Yes, recognition of the Antichrist is given to believers and to all who have a conscience and listen to believers. The rebellious world will not accept that Antichrist is "the Antichrist," any more than they might think Napoleon or Hitler or Stalin were "the Antichrist." They will simply dismiss the biblical narrative, thinking Christians are caught up in a superstitious fantasy, because they don't want to acknowledge what sin looks like. They want to be able to indulge in it, and compromise with it, in order to have their version of "peace" in the world.

But nowhere in the Bible does it say that Antichrist is disclosed by the brightness of Christ's coming. No, it says Antichrist is *destroyed* by the brightness of his Coming. Sorry you got that wrong, but you should know that the book of Revelation was written to Christians to enable them to expose and to endure wicked men like the Antichrist, as well as antiChristian-type governments. It is a call to faithfulness and to endurance. God bless!

 

[cv5]

He really needs to think for himself without all of the "encouragement." After all, if both of you are wrong, he needs to lead you in the right direction.

Actually, if you'll give yourself proper credit, and read for yourself, you'll find that DW is indeed wrong. And maybe you can set *him* on the right course?

By your own admission, you "don't get it" don't understand it, can't see it. And I agree......you don't. However, TDW does get it. And proved it. In devastating fashion. And "I get it"....perfectly well too. So evidently we possess something you do not.

I think that just about sums it up....

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I would have to have the Gift of Interpreting Tongues to understand your point here!

Ok then, so no journey towards the "Rightly Divided Word Of Truth"?

btw, I do respect you "FIRMLY holding your conviction," even though I firmly
Disagree with you

Be Blessed!

 

[OldSage]

Are the multiple comings of Christ related to a new doctrine that I had not heard before?

 

[cv5]

if it were the logical assumption, then it would follow that Christ's coming would be pre-trib, since the unfaithful and therefore deceived are those marked and the faithful are those beheaded...but if Christ's coming destroys the antichrist...how can he, then, commence his campaign

Conduct a study on the differences between the Church, the Tribulation Saints, and the 144,000 Israeli commandos.

The Church has been raptured before the trib, identified as the 24 Elders seen in chapters 4&5.

The martyrs beheaded for refusing the mark are the Tribulation Saints.

The 144,000 are ethnic Jews, who are commissioned to do the preaching now that the Chuch is unavailable to do so. Yet another proof of the Rapture IMO.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think (perhaps) the confusion in the mind of the Thessalonian Church stems from the ambiguity
of what Jesus said about the destruction of the Temple. I think the Thessalonian Church was muddled
about the two comings - and this seems to be what Paul is unwrapping here.

There are just 2 comings. The FIRST Advent and SECOND Advent. The First Advent had already occurred. There is only more coming.

 

[Runningman]

Are the multiple comings of Christ related to a new doctrine that I had not heard before?

Multiple comings of Christ are related to dispensationalism, I think. It's also a necessary thorn in the side of the pre-trib rapture because it can be easily proven Jesus returns after the great tribulation.

Dispensationalists want a pre-trib rapture so the only way to make this possible is by having Christ returns 3 or 4 times. The fatal error is that not only is this unscriptural, but it can be proven that Christ does not return 3 or 4 times. Though I will say some pre-tribbers admit there are only two advents of Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
can you answer my 2 questions regarding 2 Thess 2:1?

1. what does "the coming of the Lord" mean in v.1?
2. what does "our being gathered to Him" mean in v.1?

Those questions have been answered to impeccable perfection.

Yes, FINALLY I got a simple and clear answer about the subject of v.1. To quote DWM, v.1 is "solely about the rapture."

So, good. The "coming of the Lord" and "our being gathered to Him" IS about the rapture.

Now, I asked him about the timing of the rapture in v.3, which tells us clearly WHEN it occurs.

But since you seem to think answers have been "impeccable perfection", I'm still waiting for DWM to answer the timing question.

Do YOU know the answer to that question?