"3 that day [from v.2 the DOTL, i.e. the TRIB (judgments unfolding)] will NOT be present, if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE FIRST [our RAPTURE (IN THE AIR) *FIRST*] AND [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."
50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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The problem with this interpretation is that you define the "Day of the Lord" as the "Tribulation" and its "unfolding judgments." By this you refer to the time in which Antichrist reigns. And you define the "Apostasy" as "the Departure." This completely changes the meaning of Paul's message!
Of course, you *must* change the definitions of these words if you want to ignore the explicit Postribulational message of Paul's letter. He is actually saying that Christ cannot come back for his Church unless it is at the time when he comes to judge and to destroy the Antichrist.
Since I don't wish to get too personal, let me just reiterate the need to have a proper definition for these terms. If we are to properly define them, we must get them from the immediate context, and not search throughout the bible to see something that may justify a strange distortion. And in context, Paul is talking about something so commonly known to new Christians that he hardly had to go into great detail. They were subject to error, but Paul simply calls this the day of Christ's coming for his people, the Church.
This was well-known from Jesus' comments about his coming to his apostles. The best known one is the Olivet Discourse, in which Jesus describes his coming for Jewish believers. He describes it as the Son of Man descending from the clouds, which is obviously taken from Dan 7, where the Son of Man attends a meeting in heaven and then descends from heaven to establish his Kingdom on earth, defeating the Man of Sin.
So the Thessalonians had no trouble knowing that Paul was talking about this Day of the Lord, in which the Son of Man is coming to gather his Church. Their problem was, they thought this event may have already happened, that Jesus had somehow already appeared, secretly to his Church, and the new Kingdom movement was already developing.
This is one possible scenario, because we know that Jesus warned there would be "false Christs." How could there be "false Christs" unless some pretended that he had already come back and had begun to establish God's Kingdom on earth?
In fact, even today movements like the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that they are evidence of God's Kingdom being established on the earth. And so, Paul was warning them that the Son of Man cannot come, as indicated in Dan 7 and in Matt 24, unless Antichrist is actually revealed first. And then Jesus will come back to destroy him.
From past experience I'm convinced you will not stop arguing for your definitions. But the point is, you're either right or you're wrong. And if I'm right, you need to re-think the whole thing over from the beginning. And I would strongly urge you to do so!
I've emboldened the part that I think is wonderfully said!
I've felt the same way for many years. It's absolutely incredible that something spoken so simply can be completely distorted in order to create a new theology, a new eschatology! For many centuries good Christians read 2 Thessalonians and *never* read "apostasia" as the Departure of the Church from the earth in a Pretribulational Rapture! You have to wonder how effective the Holy Spirit is if He can't even communicate to the Church what Paul meant for 1800 years!
And why so suddenly John N. Darby is privileged to see what few have seen before, to initiate a brand new eschatology in Christian history. It makes one wonder!
I've found it fascinating, and recognize that theology is either a revelation or a bondage. And if the error is a bondage, it is not easily exposed, even if it seems simple to you or me.
Those who hold to a Pretribulation eschatology are, I believe, in a kind of bondage. They are utterly unable to see things from another point of view. So it requires kindness, prayer, and persistence in speaking the truth. Thank you for what you're doing. As peripheral as this topic is to more important topics like Salvation, it is still a part of God's word. And Paul considered it important enough to write this letter.
The real danger is that there are religious movements that get proud and begin to declare themselves the voice of God or the move of God on earth, assuming an attitude that they are the advancement of God's Kingdom on earth presently in some almost militant kind of form. Zealotry and battling with carnal weapons to achieve spiritual fulfillment is not God's Kingdom, but rather, a false Messiah.
That was Paul's concern, that we would get high on ourselves, and miss the real enemy of our souls. Christ is who we need to look to, because he will defeat the foe in his own time, and not when we choose to declare it.
The way I see it, this stubbornness, is part of the Great Falling Away from TRUTH.
There has never been this many with a twisted opinions of what the BIBLE means by what is says.
I would like to see an opinion survey from a hundred years ago, compared to now, on mainline doctrines.
That would be quite interesting.
Out of interest, why is 2 Thessalonians used in regards to the so-called tribulation?
Paul mentions nothing about any tribulation, great or otherwise
And really, whatever period of tribulation is yet to come, how could it apply to the Church?
Makes no sense to me
Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil
Paul mentions nothing about any tribulation, great or otherwise
And really, whatever period of tribulation is yet to come, how could it apply to the Church?
Makes no sense to me
Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil
^ @randyk [re: your Post - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575164 and your comments about "definitions" and so forth...], here's what I've put in past posts (in part... for brevity):
--"the day of the Lord" is defined already in Scripture, and it is NOT how the "Amill-teachings" (etc) define it;
--ALSO, in every place that the phrase "the day of the Lord" is used in close proximity [/same contexts] as the phase "IN THAT DAY," they always refer to the SAME TIME-PERIOD (and such is the case in this 2Th1&2 context, where Paul also uses BOTH PHRASES, meaning the IDENTICAL *time-period* [future]);
--1:7-8 says, "ye who are troubled rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels [note: "7 angels... 7 trumpets... 7 vials ] in flaming fire INFLICTING *VENGEANCE ON them that..." (on those *same* persons that 2Th2:10-12 says that "GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" *during* that SAME FUTURE, SPECIFIC, LIMITED TIME-PERIOD) [*where "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (Lk18:8) is the SAME TIME-PERIOD that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says of "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (same phrase also in Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"...) ALL speaking of that SAME *future*, specific, LIMITED time-period we call "the 7-yr Trib" (i.e. from SEAL #1 to His RETURN to the earth in Rev19)].
--Paul, in using these TWO RELATED PHRASES (again, in the SAME CONTEXT, chpts 1 & 2... under the second entry above), is telling of the TWO CONTRASTING *beliefs* ppl will be coming to IN / DURING / WITHIN the future TRIB yrs [FOLLOWING "our Rapture" event!]... *CONTRASTING* beliefs, but in/within the SAME future *TIME-PERIOD* ("the day of the Lord / IN THAT DAY" is the SAME *future* time-period... just as these two related phrases have been used throughout Scripture in the OT, but which the "Amill-teachings" [etc] completely disregard, by their own "made up" definition)
--Paul had already acknowledged in his first letter that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL"... that it will be like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that COMES UPON a woman... and this is exactly what Jesus had ALSO *already* spoken of, in His Olivet Discourse!! (Matt24:4/Mk13:5, in "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that He spoke of, Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8 and DESCRIBED [LIKEWISE] in Lk21:8-11)
--[keep in mind that I could say tons more, and have in past posts... I'm trying to stay BRIEF here, LOL]
--in the Latin Vulgate, 400s (long before "Darby" et al) it uses the word "discessio" which means "departure"...
[quoting old post]
[quoting from "WordHippo]
What does discessio mean in Latin? (wordhippo.com)
--"More meanings for discessio
departure noun"
____________
[quoting again from "WordHippo"]
What's the Latin word for departure? Here's a list of translations.
More Latin words for departure
discessus noun
separation, parting, going away, marching off, decamping
- https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the/latin-word-for-8eb9612e70b5f2464138e25aa0a6b15100e60b80.html#/
____________
The Latin Vulgate (400s), a Latin word was used that means "departure" / "a departing":
ne quis vos seducat ullo modo quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis
[end quoting old post]
____________
--Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1871) also says the SAME POINT: "apostasia = apostasis [apo STASIS]= a standing away from [a previous standing], or DEPARTURE
[see also the word "STASIS / STASIN" ^ used in its 9th occurrence, as compared with its previous 8 occurrences... and note especially ITS CONTEXT: "... while the first tabernacle [the one IN THE WILDERNESS, per the 'furnishings' of v.4] yet having A STANDING [/STASIN (STASIS)]: which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME..."; yes... the word in 2Th2:3 can LEGIT be translated "THE DEPARTURE" (i.e. a SPECIFIC ONE!! And one already referred to in the context [another function of the "definite article" pointing BACK TO such]... i.e. the one referred to in v.1)]
--the word "apostasia" was also used in that era for "the departing of a fever" " the departing of a boat from a dock"
--the word was also, in the FIRST SEVEN ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS (before kjv existed), translated as "a departing" or "departure"... (and, of course, WE know "the definite article ['the']" is present in the Grk text, so should be there)
...so, it is not ME that is "changing the definitions" etc...
...and yes, grasping these things very much so DOES impact the "understanding" of the text and what it is actually conveying
--"the day of the Lord" is defined already in Scripture, and it is NOT how the "Amill-teachings" (etc) define it;
--ALSO, in every place that the phrase "the day of the Lord" is used in close proximity [/same contexts] as the phase "IN THAT DAY," they always refer to the SAME TIME-PERIOD (and such is the case in this 2Th1&2 context, where Paul also uses BOTH PHRASES, meaning the IDENTICAL *time-period* [future]);
--1:7-8 says, "ye who are troubled rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels [note: "7 angels... 7 trumpets... 7 vials
] in flaming fire INFLICTING *VENGEANCE ON them that..." (on those *same* persons that 2Th2:10-12 says that "GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" *during* that SAME FUTURE, SPECIFIC, LIMITED TIME-PERIOD) [*where "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (Lk18:8) is the SAME TIME-PERIOD that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says of "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (same phrase also in Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"...) ALL speaking of that SAME *future*, specific, LIMITED time-period we call "the 7-yr Trib" (i.e. from SEAL #1 to His RETURN to the earth in Rev19)].--Paul, in using these TWO RELATED PHRASES (again, in the SAME CONTEXT, chpts 1 & 2... under the second entry above), is telling of the TWO CONTRASTING *beliefs* ppl will be coming to IN / DURING / WITHIN the future TRIB yrs [FOLLOWING "our Rapture" event!]... *CONTRASTING* beliefs, but in/within the SAME future *TIME-PERIOD* ("the day of the Lord / IN THAT DAY" is the SAME *future* time-period... just as these two related phrases have been used throughout Scripture in the OT, but which the "Amill-teachings" [etc] completely disregard, by their own "made up" definition)
--Paul had already acknowledged in his first letter that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL"... that it will be like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that COMES UPON a woman... and this is exactly what Jesus had ALSO *already* spoken of, in His Olivet Discourse!! (Matt24:4/Mk13:5, in "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that He spoke of, Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8 and DESCRIBED [LIKEWISE] in Lk21:8-11)
--[keep in mind that I could say tons more, and have in past posts... I'm trying to stay BRIEF here, LOL]
--in the Latin Vulgate, 400s (long before "Darby" et al) it uses the word "discessio" which means "departure"...
[quoting old post]
[quoting from "WordHippo]
What does discessio mean in Latin? (wordhippo.com)
--"More meanings for discessio
departure noun"
____________
[quoting again from "WordHippo"]
What's the Latin word for departure? Here's a list of translations.
More Latin words for departure
discessus noun
separation, parting, going away, marching off, decamping
- https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the/latin-word-for-8eb9612e70b5f2464138e25aa0a6b15100e60b80.html#/
____________
The Latin Vulgate (400s), a Latin word was used that means "departure" / "a departing":
ne quis vos seducat ullo modo quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis
[end quoting old post]
____________
--Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1871) also says the SAME POINT: "apostasia = apostasis [apo STASIS]= a standing away from [a previous standing], or DEPARTURE
[see also the word "STASIS / STASIN" ^ used in its 9th occurrence, as compared with its previous 8 occurrences... and note especially ITS CONTEXT: "... while the first tabernacle [the one IN THE WILDERNESS, per the 'furnishings' of v.4] yet having A STANDING [/STASIN (STASIS)]: which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME..."; yes... the word in 2Th2:3 can LEGIT be translated "THE DEPARTURE" (i.e. a SPECIFIC ONE!! And one already referred to in the context [another function of the "definite article" pointing BACK TO such]... i.e. the one referred to in v.1)]
--the word "apostasia" was also used in that era for "the departing of a fever" " the departing of a boat from a dock"
--the word was also, in the FIRST SEVEN ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS (before kjv existed), translated as "a departing" or "departure"... (and, of course, WE know "the definite article ['the']" is present in the Grk text, so should be there)
...so, it is not ME that is "changing the definitions" etc...
...and yes, grasping these things very much so DOES impact the "understanding" of the text and what it is actually conveying
You're quite right that the term "Tribulation" is misused in this context. As I've been saying for quite some time now the "Tribulation" originally was applied by Jesus to the "Jewish Punishment," extending from the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD to the end of the age. This was the time before the nation is restored. See Luke 21.22.
In the meantime, only a small remnant of Jews are "God's People," the Church. And people from all nations have been gathered together with this Jewish Church to form the International Church, which we see in Rev 7, the "Great Multitude," who come out of the "Great Tribulation." See Rom 11.5.
Just as Israel is to eventually emerge out of the time of her punishment, so people from all nations will be gathered out of the troubles of their own nations. And so, "Great Tribulation" had always been applied, by Jesus, to a time of punishment that believers have to endure until they are rescued. The Punishment never was intended to be directed at them, even though it is God's will that we be there as witnesses to righteousness during this time.
I and my late wife (Jesus called her home Nov. 2, 2015), we absolutely BELIEVE it is LITERAL, and she gets SO EXCITED when she read that verse, as her horse riding abilities ended with a back surgery in her 20's. The armies of HEAVEN, means US and the ANGELS, will ride behind CHRIST, as HE wars the the Nations, at the Second Coming. And we BELIEVE we will be Raptured about 7 years before that.
Well, I totally disagree with the DotL beginning at the start of the Trib. It starts when He returns, at the end of the Trib. So whatever else you post will be irrelevant.
And again, "that day" from v.3 refers back to a SPECIFIC DAY, not a lengthy time period. And "the coming of the Lord" in v.1 IS a specific day. So there you have it.
Right.
v.1 refers to the Second Coming and the rapture, or "our being gathered to Him".
If you think "the coming of the Lord" refers to something other than the Second Coming, and "our being gathered to Him" means something other than the rapture, please explain.
Well, that is NOT what you said some 50 pages ago (or whatever--however long ago that was), where you said it DOES.
Make up your mind... stick to ONE STORY! (does your wife tell you that you speak "out of both sides of your mouth," often??)
You literally "FLIP-FLOP" on this point whenever the opposite point helps the current point you are attempting to convey, in any given post of yours...
I FIND THAT HARD TO BELIEVE... OR EASY TO BE CONVINCED BY...
HELLO!
Precious friend, how about NOT bondage, but more like
"...COMFORT one another with These Words!" (1 Thess_4 : 13-18 KJB!)
Amen on the Emphasized portion! Which goes Against post-trib idea {choosing to "Declare The Timing"?} of "looking, watching, And waiting for THE Wicked one, the man of sin, the son of perdition, and "ISRAEL's/nations' Great Tribulation!""
Paul Is Very Clear about The Body Of CHRIST!!:
While those who prefer God's Prophecy/Law Program, And
"live BY SIGHT," Are looking, watching, and WAITING for
the Wicked one, the son of Perdition...
Rightly Divided (2_Timothy_2 : 15 KJB!) From "Things That Differ!":
...Plain And Clear Scriptures Supporting Great GRACE Departure!:
...we, who "live BY FAITH, And NOT by sight..."
(2_Corinthians_5 : 7 KJB!), According To The
"Revelation Of The MYSTERY," God's GRACE Program, Are:
Looking, Watching, Waiting For our Blessed Hope, The HOLY ONE:
”...The Coming Of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, and our
gathering together Unto HIM…“ ( 2_Thessalonians 2 : 1! )
"For I reckon that The Sufferings of this present time are not
worthy to be compared with The Glory which shall be revealed
in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for
the manifestation of the sons of God...
...ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of The Spirit, even
we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for The Adoption,
to wit, The Redemption Of our body!" ( Romans_8 : 18, 19, 23! )
"But if we hope for That we see not, then do
we with patience wait for It." ( Romans_8 : 25! )
For The Redemption Of CHRIST?
"So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for The
Coming of our LORD JESUS CHRIST!" ( 1_Corinthians 1 : 7! )
"...And take the helmet of salvation, and The SWORD of The Spirit,
Which Is The WORD of God: praying always with all prayer and
supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all
perseverance and supplication for all saints…" ( Ephesians_6 : 12-18! )
What?:
Watching/persevering The “future age” of Antichrist/Gr8-Trib,
or The Present Time “Age of GRACE for infirmities” watching for:
CHRIST And Redemption?
"For our conversation [citizenship] is in Heaven; from whence also we
look for The Saviour, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!" ( Philippians_3 : 20! )
Looking for/persevering the Persecutor, or: FOR The SAVIOUR?
To slaves of The LORD JESUS CHRIST:
"...ye also have A Master in Heaven. Continue in prayer, and
watch in the same with thanksgiving; withal praying also for
us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak
The Mystery Of CHRIST…" ( Colossians_4 :1-3! )
our "enemy HATES This MYSTERY" More than anything, Correct?
“And to wait for His SON from Heaven, Whom He Raised from the
dead, even JESUS, Which Delivered us from the wrath to come!"
( 1_Thessalonians 1 : 10! ) wrath of antichrist to come?
“Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as
do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep, sleep
in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for a helmet, The Hope of Salvation. For God
Hath not Appointed us to wrath, but to obtain Salvation By our
LORD JESUS CHRIST, Who Died for us, that, whether we wake or
sleep, we Should Live Together With HIM! Wherefore COMFORT
yourselves together and EDIFY one another, even as also ye do.”
( 1_Thessalonians 5 : 5-11! ) How, Exactly is this "bondage"?
Please advise how we go into Gr8-Trib, When God Has NOT
appointed us to, And Delivered us from, "the wrath to come"?
And, Finally:
“LOOKING for That Blessed Hope, and The Glorious Appearing
of THE Great God and our Saviour JESUS CHRIST!” ( Titus_2 : 13! )
Conclusion:
Are we "looking, watching, and Patiently waiting for:
THE Wicked one ? OR The HOLY One, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!?
About Colossians_3 : 2: Is your “affection” = Things of “earth” =
antichrist? Or “Things Of Heaven” = The LORD JESUS CHRIST?
Be Blessed!
If I was posting to one of your posts, most likely I was unable to accurately figure out your post. I've already noted a number of times how confusing and hard to figure out they are. With all your different emphases that you use.
The DotL begins when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent, and continues into eternity.
Nonsense.
"The day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are the SAME TIME-PERIOD, when used in the SAME CONTEXTS throughout Scripture
(and Paul is doing the same thing here in THIS context, chpts 1 & 2)
It is clear that the two witnesses have completed their ministry before the seventh trumpet/bowl judgments/third woe. It is less clear exactly when 144,000 complete their ministry and are gathered unto the Lord. Have you formulated an opinion or theory on this matter? I am wondering whether all of the Tribulation Saints (all of them having been martyred and none remaining) and the 144,000 (removed) are no longer on the earth before the seventh trumpet and bowl judgments.
Can you take a moment and expand on your midtrib/Fifth trumpet first woe theory?