Why Covid 19 When We Have Healing Power
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Agreed!
The Pentecostal Charismatic faith has kicked open the door to emotional experiences. I am not saying that is a BAD thing, only that emotions should never replace the worship of God.
In way too many cases....the worship services become so self centered and people emotionalism, it is hard to know if you are in a church or at a rock concert.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. All I did as you know was ask the question of where are those who place so much faith in faith healers.
In a time of world wide pandemics.....it just seems like common sense that IF WHAT THEY SAY THEY CAN DO, why are they not doing exactly that!
You see.....it is always the same. We hear talk, we testify, we have SEEN healings, we have experienced miracles.......
but when it comes to actual...real time...right now show and tell.........put your money where your mouth is.....
where are those people?????
That is all I am asking!
The Pentecostal Charismatic faith has kicked open the door to emotional experiences. I am not saying that is a BAD thing, only that emotions should never replace the worship of God.
In way too many cases....the worship services become so self centered and people emotionalism, it is hard to know if you are in a church or at a rock concert.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. All I did as you know was ask the question of where are those who place so much faith in faith healers.
In a time of world wide pandemics.....it just seems like common sense that IF WHAT THEY SAY THEY CAN DO, why are they not doing exactly that!
You see.....it is always the same. We hear talk, we testify, we have SEEN healings, we have experienced miracles.......
but when it comes to actual...real time...right now show and tell.........put your money where your mouth is.....
where are those people?????
That is all I am asking!
However in Mark 16:14 we see.........
"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. "
Then He commissioned those ELEVEN men and said to THEM ............
"And he said unto them,(the ELEVEN) Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Now, in order for the ELEVEN APOSTLES to do what Jesus told them to do, He gave them several gifts as a SIGN that THEY were directly from Him and doing what He told them to do..............
"And these signs shall follow them that believe;(ELEVEN), In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19So then after the LORD had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20And they went forth, and preached every where, the LORD working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."
THAT is what the Bible says!
This SIGN GIFTS, according to the Word of God were given to a specific group of people, at a specific time, for a specific reason.
We are not part of that group today. There are NO Apostles today so no one can Biblically qualify as an Apostle.
"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. "
Then He commissioned those ELEVEN men and said to THEM ............
"And he said unto them,(the ELEVEN) Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Now, in order for the ELEVEN APOSTLES to do what Jesus told them to do, He gave them several gifts as a SIGN that THEY were directly from Him and doing what He told them to do..............
"And these signs shall follow them that believe;(ELEVEN), In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19So then after the LORD had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20And they went forth, and preached every where, the LORD working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."
THAT is what the Bible says!
This SIGN GIFTS, according to the Word of God were given to a specific group of people, at a specific time, for a specific reason.
We are not part of that group today. There are NO Apostles today so no one can Biblically qualify as an Apostle.
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And that does not mean......"PHYSICAL healing".
It seems to me that a whole generation of believers only see what someone has told them the Bible says.
Isaiah 53:5........
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
Please.....everyone take the time to actually read the Bible.
There is NOT ONE WORD in Isaiah 53 about being physically healed.
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities."
Here the sense is, that the reason why he thus suffered was, that we were transgressors. All along the prophet keeps up the idea that it was not on account of any sin of which he was guilty that he thus suffered, but it was for the sins of others - an idea which is everywhere exhibited in the New Testament.
Physical healing is NOT found in the Atonement. It is SPIRITUAL healing from SIN that the Messiah died for. We WILL eventually be physically healed when we die and enter Heaven, but till then we will suffer.
It seems to me that a whole generation of believers only see what someone has told them the Bible says.
Isaiah 53:5........
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
Please.....everyone take the time to actually read the Bible.
There is NOT ONE WORD in Isaiah 53 about being physically healed.
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities."
Here the sense is, that the reason why he thus suffered was, that we were transgressors. All along the prophet keeps up the idea that it was not on account of any sin of which he was guilty that he thus suffered, but it was for the sins of others - an idea which is everywhere exhibited in the New Testament.
Physical healing is NOT found in the Atonement. It is SPIRITUAL healing from SIN that the Messiah died for. We WILL eventually be physically healed when we die and enter Heaven, but till then we will suffer.
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"
Divine Healing That Wasn't
(keep in mind most of these folks teach it is God’s will to heal you every time you are sick)
Doyle "Buddy" Harrison, Founder of Harrison House Books, son-in-law of Kenneth E. Hagin died Nov. 1998 of cancer. He was the founder of Faith Christian Fellowship, the WOF denomination. How could he have died of cancer? He was in the "faith movement" BEFORE Copeland and others . . .
0. E.W. Kenyon, Father of the Word of Faith Movement. One of the initial teachers of divine healing and it always being God's will to heal His children. Died in a coma brought on by a malignant tumor. Copeland teaches that Kenyon was sitting in a rocking chair, his daughter came into the room and Kenyon said "there's Jesus, good bye," and went to glory. This is a lie. He died from disease.
1. John Osteen, mega-church pastor in Houston - his wife, Dodie got liver cancer and through the mercy of God and medical attention survived. John Osteen is more sound today than when he initially began with the renewal movement, he is probably not as much a WOF teacher as he used to be.
2. Frederick K. Price, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Los Angeles - his wife, Betty got cancer and was medically treated (chemo-therapy) and by the mercy of God was patched up. "If you need a crutch upon or something to help you get along, then praise God, hobble along until you get your faith moving to the point that you don’t need a crutch." How Faith Works pp. 92-92
I guess after all the years of sitting under "anointed" faith teaching by one of the movements leading faith teachers was not enough for Fred’s wife - she needed a doctor after all.
3. Jamie Buckingham, Discipleship Movement & charismatic author - died of cancer. He was under a medical doctors care.
4. Charles Capps, Word of Faith teacher, teaches power of our words to create reality - his wife got cancer and was medically treated.
I guess Chuck’s wife must have not spoken the right magic words to keep the cancer from her body.
5. John Wimber, Signs & Wonders Movement, author of "Power Healing," - just died from cancer. He too, was medically treated - no "power" healing for him, only chemo-therapy.
5a. Chris Wimber, GM of Vineyard Music died Feb 6, 1998 of melanoma cancer. Mahesh is supposed to have "healed" people of cancer and AIDS - yet there was no "healing" for Chris.
6. Mack Timberlake, Word of Faith pastor - suffering from throat cancer, getting medical attention.
7. R.W. Schambach, Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass (from a real live human doctor)
Maybe so, but isn't it nice that He has provided doctors too? Without them, R.W. would have long ago faced his judgment.
8. Dr. Hobart Freeman, Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease.
I personally respect Hobart & his misguided followers. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing." (BTW - Hobart is a name NONE of the WOF'ers mention, he was too serious about the teachings).
9. Joyce Meyer, the fast rising Word of Faith female preacher. On Aug. 31, 1998 on her morning broadcast admitted that she had breast cancer and was MEDICALLY TREATED. I found her admission to be very interesting.
9. Prophet Keith Grayton, Prophetic Movement - died of the complications of AIDS He spoke at our Church in Detroit, and declared he was totally healed. He died a year or so later.
10. Kenneth Hagin, "father" of the Word of Faith Movement - sister died of cancer, (he wears glasses as does his son). Hagin’s great faith and special anointing could not keep her on the planet or his eyesight from growing dim.
10a. Hagin's sister died from cancer.
10b. Hagin's wife had to go to the hospital for an operation even though Jesus "appeared" to Hagin and gave him a special anointing to heal the sick (read I Believe In Visions). If people believe Hagin is anointed then they will be healed, I guess his own family members doubt his healing powers.
11. Robert Tilton, God's "profit" admitted he had to get special face-lifting surgery because of the danger of getting ink poisoning from laying on all the prayer requests he received. Why didn't he command healing . . .like he does for countless others over the airwaves?"
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/sick.htm
Divine Healing That Wasn't
(keep in mind most of these folks teach it is God’s will to heal you every time you are sick)
Doyle "Buddy" Harrison, Founder of Harrison House Books, son-in-law of Kenneth E. Hagin died Nov. 1998 of cancer. He was the founder of Faith Christian Fellowship, the WOF denomination. How could he have died of cancer? He was in the "faith movement" BEFORE Copeland and others . . .
0. E.W. Kenyon, Father of the Word of Faith Movement. One of the initial teachers of divine healing and it always being God's will to heal His children. Died in a coma brought on by a malignant tumor. Copeland teaches that Kenyon was sitting in a rocking chair, his daughter came into the room and Kenyon said "there's Jesus, good bye," and went to glory. This is a lie. He died from disease.
1. John Osteen, mega-church pastor in Houston - his wife, Dodie got liver cancer and through the mercy of God and medical attention survived. John Osteen is more sound today than when he initially began with the renewal movement, he is probably not as much a WOF teacher as he used to be.
2. Frederick K. Price, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Los Angeles - his wife, Betty got cancer and was medically treated (chemo-therapy) and by the mercy of God was patched up. "If you need a crutch upon or something to help you get along, then praise God, hobble along until you get your faith moving to the point that you don’t need a crutch." How Faith Works pp. 92-92
I guess after all the years of sitting under "anointed" faith teaching by one of the movements leading faith teachers was not enough for Fred’s wife - she needed a doctor after all.
3. Jamie Buckingham, Discipleship Movement & charismatic author - died of cancer. He was under a medical doctors care.
4. Charles Capps, Word of Faith teacher, teaches power of our words to create reality - his wife got cancer and was medically treated.
I don’t deny the existence of disease. I deny the right of that disease to exist in this body, because I’m the Body of Christ." The Tongue p. 43.
5. John Wimber, Signs & Wonders Movement, author of "Power Healing," - just died from cancer. He too, was medically treated - no "power" healing for him, only chemo-therapy.
5a. Chris Wimber, GM of Vineyard Music died Feb 6, 1998 of melanoma cancer. Mahesh is supposed to have "healed" people of cancer and AIDS - yet there was no "healing" for Chris.
6. Mack Timberlake, Word of Faith pastor - suffering from throat cancer, getting medical attention.
7. R.W. Schambach, Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass (from a real live human doctor)
"You don’t have any problems, all you need is faith in God."
8. Dr. Hobart Freeman, Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease.
I personally respect Hobart & his misguided followers. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing." (BTW - Hobart is a name NONE of the WOF'ers mention, he was too serious about the teachings).
9. Joyce Meyer, the fast rising Word of Faith female preacher. On Aug. 31, 1998 on her morning broadcast admitted that she had breast cancer and was MEDICALLY TREATED. I found her admission to be very interesting.
9. Prophet Keith Grayton, Prophetic Movement - died of the complications of AIDS He spoke at our Church in Detroit, and declared he was totally healed. He died a year or so later.
10. Kenneth Hagin, "father" of the Word of Faith Movement - sister died of cancer, (he wears glasses as does his son). Hagin’s great faith and special anointing could not keep her on the planet or his eyesight from growing dim.
10a. Hagin's sister died from cancer.
10b. Hagin's wife had to go to the hospital for an operation even though Jesus "appeared" to Hagin and gave him a special anointing to heal the sick (read I Believe In Visions). If people believe Hagin is anointed then they will be healed, I guess his own family members doubt his healing powers.
11. Robert Tilton, God's "profit" admitted he had to get special face-lifting surgery because of the danger of getting ink poisoning from laying on all the prayer requests he received. Why didn't he command healing . . .like he does for countless others over the airwaves?"
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/sick.htm
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How Do They Explain?
Katherine Kuhlman - an acknowledged divine healer DIED from heart disease in Tulsa OK, Oral Roberts could not heal her!
A.A. Allen - an acknowledged divine healer and exorcist DIED from alcohol & drug abuse.
Aimee Semple McPherson - an acknowledge divine healer - died of a barbiturate overdose. Why was she taking pills in the first place? Wasn't the "peace" of God enough for her?
Jack Coe - an acknowledged divine healer DIED from disease.
John G. Lake - DIED of a stroke in 1935. He is held up as a great "healer" and miracle worker.
Gordon Lindsey- DIED either of a stroke or heart condition. Yet he propagated the Healing Revival of the lates 1940's and early 1950's. Why?
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/sick.htm
Katherine Kuhlman - an acknowledged divine healer DIED from heart disease in Tulsa OK, Oral Roberts could not heal her!
A.A. Allen - an acknowledged divine healer and exorcist DIED from alcohol & drug abuse.
Aimee Semple McPherson - an acknowledge divine healer - died of a barbiturate overdose. Why was she taking pills in the first place? Wasn't the "peace" of God enough for her?
Jack Coe - an acknowledged divine healer DIED from disease.
John G. Lake - DIED of a stroke in 1935. He is held up as a great "healer" and miracle worker.
Gordon Lindsey- DIED either of a stroke or heart condition. Yet he propagated the Healing Revival of the lates 1940's and early 1950's. Why?
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/sick.htm
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1. Robert Tilton, Word of Faith Televangelist - 2 divorces, multiple law suits, caught in many lies, utters many false prophecies, uses unscrupulous means to garner millions from God's "gullible."
2. Peter Popoff, Televangelist - a proven fraud (read "The Faith Healers" by James Randi)
3. W.V. Grant, Televangelist - convicted felon for tax fraud, a divorcee.
4. Leroy Jenkins, Televangelist - convicted felon for arson & assault.
5. Jimmy Swaggert, Televangelist - adulterer, opulent lifestyle while crying broke on television.
6. Marilyn Hickey, Word of Faith teacher - shameless use of charismatic trinkets (blessed cornmeal, oils, cloths, seeds, coins, etc.).
7. Marjoe Gortner, came from 3 generations of Pentecostal preachers. He laid hands on multitudes to give them the "gift" of tongues. . . yet he himself was not saved. He admitted this publicly, and made a movie showing him in action. Unsaved, yet seeming to flow in the miraculous.
8. Jim Bakker, convicted felon. Jim & Tammy lived high off the hog for many years. Later they divorced, and in jail the Lord seems to have dealt with Jim and I think he has repented.
9. E.W. Kenyon, divorced his wife yet taught that faith is a law that works by another law, the law of love! We are told by WOF teachers that Kenyon was a man of faith and power - but how could his "god-kind-of-faith" been in operation if he could not even love his wife properly?
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/sick.htm
2. Peter Popoff, Televangelist - a proven fraud (read "The Faith Healers" by James Randi)
3. W.V. Grant, Televangelist - convicted felon for tax fraud, a divorcee.
4. Leroy Jenkins, Televangelist - convicted felon for arson & assault.
5. Jimmy Swaggert, Televangelist - adulterer, opulent lifestyle while crying broke on television.
6. Marilyn Hickey, Word of Faith teacher - shameless use of charismatic trinkets (blessed cornmeal, oils, cloths, seeds, coins, etc.).
7. Marjoe Gortner, came from 3 generations of Pentecostal preachers. He laid hands on multitudes to give them the "gift" of tongues. . . yet he himself was not saved. He admitted this publicly, and made a movie showing him in action. Unsaved, yet seeming to flow in the miraculous.
8. Jim Bakker, convicted felon. Jim & Tammy lived high off the hog for many years. Later they divorced, and in jail the Lord seems to have dealt with Jim and I think he has repented.
9. E.W. Kenyon, divorced his wife yet taught that faith is a law that works by another law, the law of love! We are told by WOF teachers that Kenyon was a man of faith and power - but how could his "god-kind-of-faith" been in operation if he could not even love his wife properly?
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/sick.htm
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"A 39-year-old pastor in Cameroon has died of coronavirus after he laid hands on churchgoers with the disease and pronounced them healed. " https://disrn.com/news/pastor-dies-...empting-healing-of-churchgoers-with-the-virus
https://idahonews.com/news/local/cr...n-for-idaho-churches-practicing-faith-healing
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For instance, in June, this Pentecostal preacher and witchcraft exorcist said that his church had recorded over 114 COVID-19 healing testimonies. These faith-healing claims fly in the face of facts and figures regarding the management and containment of COVID-19 in Nigeria and beyond. The Nigerian health authorities should call the preacher to order. They should sanction him because he is a pastor, not a public health expert.
The coronavirus pandemic has dealt a heavy blow to the faith-healing industry. And Pentecostal pastors are desperate to get back into the business of mining the gullibility of Nigerians. The virus has succeeded in exposing the fakery and inefficacy of faith-healing practices. COVID-19 is a global pandemic and a public health emergency that has no cure yet. There is no evidence that coronavirus patients could be healed through prayer or laying of hands. Instead, evidence abounds that such practices contribute to the spread of the infection. Some pastors reportedly contracted the virus and subsequently died after praying and laying hands on patients. So, the preacher’s
https://guardian.ng/opinion/irresponsible-covid-19-faith-healing-claims/
"
https://idahonews.com/news/local/cr...n-for-idaho-churches-practicing-faith-healing
"
For instance, in June, this Pentecostal preacher and witchcraft exorcist said that his church had recorded over 114 COVID-19 healing testimonies. These faith-healing claims fly in the face of facts and figures regarding the management and containment of COVID-19 in Nigeria and beyond. The Nigerian health authorities should call the preacher to order. They should sanction him because he is a pastor, not a public health expert.
The coronavirus pandemic has dealt a heavy blow to the faith-healing industry. And Pentecostal pastors are desperate to get back into the business of mining the gullibility of Nigerians. The virus has succeeded in exposing the fakery and inefficacy of faith-healing practices. COVID-19 is a global pandemic and a public health emergency that has no cure yet. There is no evidence that coronavirus patients could be healed through prayer or laying of hands. Instead, evidence abounds that such practices contribute to the spread of the infection. Some pastors reportedly contracted the virus and subsequently died after praying and laying hands on patients. So, the preacher’s
https://guardian.ng/opinion/irresponsible-covid-19-faith-healing-claims/
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https://www.arabnews.com/node/1682326/middle-east
https://childfriendlyfaith.org/2020/04/faith-healing-is-spreading-not-curing-coronavirus/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/04/america-rightwing-christian-preachers-virus-hoax
https://bgr.com/science/coronavirus...washing-face-masks-social-distancing-5842053/
https://medium.com/humanist-voices/covid19-pastor-died-and-pastor-wants-to-die-d3365bb9bbeb
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/04/27/pastor-landon-spradlin-coronavirus-death/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/reli...healing-christian-faith-coronavirus-pandemic/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3153535/
https://childfriendlyfaith.org/2020/04/faith-healing-is-spreading-not-curing-coronavirus/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/04/america-rightwing-christian-preachers-virus-hoax
https://bgr.com/science/coronavirus...washing-face-masks-social-distancing-5842053/
https://medium.com/humanist-voices/covid19-pastor-died-and-pastor-wants-to-die-d3365bb9bbeb
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/04/27/pastor-landon-spradlin-coronavirus-death/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/reli...healing-christian-faith-coronavirus-pandemic/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3153535/
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I appreciate that you are speaking from your own experience, and I left the Pentecostal movement in 1978 because I became disillusioned with it though the conduct of people in the church I attended.
But you are speaking of things that are part of a minority within the Charismatic movement. When I left my Charismatic church in 1978, I joined up with the local Anglican church which was traditional enough to have an Archdeacon in oversight. But within it, I meet a group of Angican Charismatics who were quite a different kettle of fish to the ones I left. It showed me that there were other types of Charismatics who were nothing like the Charismatics whom I became disillusioned with.
Over the years in 1978, I have fellowshipped with Baptist and Presbyterian churches, the last of the latter I became an elder and served 23 years with it. In all that time, I retained my Pentecostal theology, because I learned that it was not confined to the Pentecostal church but was totally Biblical. But how to manifest the gifts of the Spirit in non-Charismatic churches was something I had to talk a lot with the Lord about. I was able to give prophecies every once in a while by saying to a person, "If Jesus was here, He might say this to you..." Because the approach was non "Pentecostal", KJV or dramatic, those prophecies were fully accepted as a "love" letter from God to encourage the person. Although I continued to pray in tongues in private, I never spoke it in the services (and that is what Paul taught anyway). When I preached (as Presbyterian elders can), I did not hide the fact that the spiritual gifts were for today and that we should seek the Lord about how we can release the Holy Spirit to manifest them, and not one person complained that I was trying to push Pentecostalism on them. In fact, at one time, when there was a fear that some local Pentecostals were going to come and push Pentecostalism, I told the minister to refer them to me and I would put them straight. He appreciated that.
I am now part of a Methodist/Presbyterian Union church that if 20 people turned up on Sunday morning it would be a revival. The minister was all into the social Gospel and saving the planet rather than preaching the Gospel. I was given opportunity to take services and preach, and we had a good discussion beforehand, and I did not hide my Pentecostal background. His response was that he welcomed a range of different faiths in his church and had no problem with me preaching the gospel. One service was interrupted by a random guy who came in and spoke a bit of gobbledygook and spoke a few sentences in tongues. After the service the minister, a couple of others and I talked about it and I explained what tongues is, and that the fellow was misusing it by speaking it to us in the way he did. I said that the gifts of the Spirit are for today, but not in the way that the fellow was trying to use it.
So, no doubt, there is the lunatic fringe within the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement. The relative freedom of expression and way God is worshiped in the movement gives rise to more freedom for the lunatics to express themselves. That is one of the unfortunate aspects of the movement. But although there might be one or two in a Pentecostal church who would be like that, the majority of the congregation know who they are and work their best to shut them down if they go over the odds disrupting services.
But I would say that there are many more people sleeping through cessationist church sermons than there are lunatics in good Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. And there are many more liberal non-charismatic churches that deny the resurrection of Christ, virgin birth, and even the divinity of Christ and never preach the gospel at all, than there are pseudo-charismatic groups that preach the prosperity doctrine and accept kundalini manifestations as part of their integral worship.
If if the whole Pentecostal movement is going to be tarred and feathered for the sake of a few shonky ones, why not do the same to all Anglican, Methodist and Presbyterian churches for the sake of the ones who accept homosexual ministers and follow the teaching of Bishop Spong who denies the resurrection of Christ and reduces the Christian faith to a set of personal morals?
Why not reject all Baptist churches because of the Westboro Baptist church that hates "fags" and insults those in the military who have fought and died for America?
Then we would arrive at the attitude that only your church and mine are the only good ones, and I am not sure about yours!
But you are speaking of things that are part of a minority within the Charismatic movement. When I left my Charismatic church in 1978, I joined up with the local Anglican church which was traditional enough to have an Archdeacon in oversight. But within it, I meet a group of Angican Charismatics who were quite a different kettle of fish to the ones I left. It showed me that there were other types of Charismatics who were nothing like the Charismatics whom I became disillusioned with.
Over the years in 1978, I have fellowshipped with Baptist and Presbyterian churches, the last of the latter I became an elder and served 23 years with it. In all that time, I retained my Pentecostal theology, because I learned that it was not confined to the Pentecostal church but was totally Biblical. But how to manifest the gifts of the Spirit in non-Charismatic churches was something I had to talk a lot with the Lord about. I was able to give prophecies every once in a while by saying to a person, "If Jesus was here, He might say this to you..." Because the approach was non "Pentecostal", KJV or dramatic, those prophecies were fully accepted as a "love" letter from God to encourage the person. Although I continued to pray in tongues in private, I never spoke it in the services (and that is what Paul taught anyway). When I preached (as Presbyterian elders can), I did not hide the fact that the spiritual gifts were for today and that we should seek the Lord about how we can release the Holy Spirit to manifest them, and not one person complained that I was trying to push Pentecostalism on them. In fact, at one time, when there was a fear that some local Pentecostals were going to come and push Pentecostalism, I told the minister to refer them to me and I would put them straight. He appreciated that.
I am now part of a Methodist/Presbyterian Union church that if 20 people turned up on Sunday morning it would be a revival. The minister was all into the social Gospel and saving the planet rather than preaching the Gospel. I was given opportunity to take services and preach, and we had a good discussion beforehand, and I did not hide my Pentecostal background. His response was that he welcomed a range of different faiths in his church and had no problem with me preaching the gospel. One service was interrupted by a random guy who came in and spoke a bit of gobbledygook and spoke a few sentences in tongues. After the service the minister, a couple of others and I talked about it and I explained what tongues is, and that the fellow was misusing it by speaking it to us in the way he did. I said that the gifts of the Spirit are for today, but not in the way that the fellow was trying to use it.
So, no doubt, there is the lunatic fringe within the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement. The relative freedom of expression and way God is worshiped in the movement gives rise to more freedom for the lunatics to express themselves. That is one of the unfortunate aspects of the movement. But although there might be one or two in a Pentecostal church who would be like that, the majority of the congregation know who they are and work their best to shut them down if they go over the odds disrupting services.
But I would say that there are many more people sleeping through cessationist church sermons than there are lunatics in good Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. And there are many more liberal non-charismatic churches that deny the resurrection of Christ, virgin birth, and even the divinity of Christ and never preach the gospel at all, than there are pseudo-charismatic groups that preach the prosperity doctrine and accept kundalini manifestations as part of their integral worship.
If if the whole Pentecostal movement is going to be tarred and feathered for the sake of a few shonky ones, why not do the same to all Anglican, Methodist and Presbyterian churches for the sake of the ones who accept homosexual ministers and follow the teaching of Bishop Spong who denies the resurrection of Christ and reduces the Christian faith to a set of personal morals?
Why not reject all Baptist churches because of the Westboro Baptist church that hates "fags" and insults those in the military who have fought and died for America?
Then we would arrive at the attitude that only your church and mine are the only good ones, and I am not sure about yours!
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the deception in the church is that the Holy Spirit has gone on a permanent vacation
I bet you will get on your knees pretty quick if someone you love becomes ill with something only God can cure
you seem to think that healing immediately secures some kind of eternal life while still on earth
every person healed by Jesus also died, so is Jesus also a fake?
honestly, you folks do not seem able to reach an understanding of anything but your own opinions
I bet you will get on your knees pretty quick if someone you love becomes ill with something only God can cure
you seem to think that healing immediately secures some kind of eternal life while still on earth
every person healed by Jesus also died, so is Jesus also a fake?
honestly, you folks do not seem able to reach an understanding of anything but your own opinions
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