Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[PaulChristensen]

In Mark 16 its saying they SHALL recover . So the idea is anyone that was sick those disciples had the sign gift ,that when they lay hands on them they recovered . We are talking about full recovery. Full healing . A sign unmistakable.

I can't argue with straight Scripture. But we must consider the sovereignty of God and that He does what He wants, not what we want. I don't think God will happily respond to us Bible-bashing Him like some Bible-bash others into submission to their will.

Just think about it. You pray for a sick person, and the person doesn't get healed. So you get your nose out of joint with God and you stand up to Him and assert that He is at fault because He didn't do what you thought His Word said He should do.

A New Zealand cartoonist created a clear picture of what that could be. In a recent situation where New Zealand stood up to the United States on an issue, he drew a cartoon depicting a little kiwi (the New Zealand bird symbol) shaking its fist at a gigantic, imposing American Eagle. Get the picture?

If the Apostle John, who leaned on Jesus' breast at the last supper, when He saw the risen, glorified Jesus in his Revelation vision he fell at His feet as if dead, what chance would you and me being able to stand on our hind legs if confronted with our great God in all His glory saying, "Who do you think you are, questioning My sovereignty in this issue?" I think Job felt pretty insecure when God appeared in a whirlwind saying, "Who is he who darkens counsel without knowledge?"

So, all we can really do in the face of God's sovereignty, is to make our request to God, thank Him for who He is, full of grace and mercy, and then leave the outcome to Him. The easy part for us is to be obedience and make our request in faith, believing His Word, and then leaving the difficult miraculous part to Him to do according to His will and not ours.

 

[Aidan1]

He is the same, yesterday, today and forever, healing is often a process, and too often we quit praying when we don't see immediate results.
He is far more concerned with our inside than our outside, more concerned and desirous of our healing inside first than outside, He knows the end from the beginning and what out eternal future holds.
He always desires, it is His very nature, we be healed, whole, well, restored.
The problem procuring it is never on His end, the problem is always down here.
45 pages of talking about it and not seeking His guidance and direction in this are a part of the problem.
We all have opinions, none of them matter.
blessings

Then the healings today are different to the healings in Jesus and Paul time. They were there no process. And also it was not an question of long and constant prayer.

So you realing wondering that people not agree with the chsrismatic/ pentecostal teachings?

 

[Aidan1]

I can't argue with straight Scripture. But we must consider the sovereignty of God and that He does what He wants, not what we want. I don't think God will happily respond to us Bible-bashing Him like some Bible-bash others into submission to their will.

Just think about it. You pray for a sick person, and the person doesn't get healed. So you get your nose out of joint with God and you stand up to Him and assert that He is at fault because He didn't do what you thought His Word said He should do.

A New Zealand cartoonist created a clear picture of what that could be. In a recent situation where New Zealand stood up to the United States on an issue, he drew a cartoon depicting a little kiwi (the New Zealand bird symbol) shaking its fist at a gigantic, imposing American Eagle. Get the picture?

If the Apostle John, who leaned on Jesus' breast at the last supper, when He saw the risen, glorified Jesus in his Revelation vision he fell at His feet as if dead, what chance would you and me being able to stand on our hind legs if confronted with our great God in all His glory saying, "Who do you think you are, questioning My sovereignty in this issue?" I think Job felt pretty insecure when God appeared in a whirlwind saying, "Who is he who darkens counsel without knowledge?"

So, all we can really do in the face of God's sovereignty, is to make our request to God, thank Him for who He is, full of grace and mercy, and then leave the outcome to Him. The easy part for us is to be obedience and make our request in faith, believing His Word, and then leaving the difficult miraculous part to Him to do according to His will and not ours.

Correct and when we compare then with the time of Jesus and Paul we notice the difference.
Thats why we cant say that the sign gifts ( in this case healing) in the same way to expierience like in Jesus and Pauls time.
Today we will expierience it most on the missionfields, but not in the church, according the Slogan a true Christian cant be sick.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Then the healings today are different to the healings in Jesus and Paul time. They were there no process. And also it was not an question of long and constant prayer.

So you realing wondering that people not agree with the chsrismatic/ pentecostal teachings?

Charismatic and Pentecostal teachings are not paramount and do not overrule the Word of God. We want instant results, when it may take a believer 20 years of perseverance and prayer to start to get people healed, because it may take 20 years to prepare that person's maturity and faith in God's Word.

Most Charismatics know that God is sovereign, and that all they can do is to pray the prayer of faith and leave the outcome to the Lord. They celebrate when God does heal, and they wait before God to find out why the results didn't happen. Only a minority of pseudo-charismatics teach guaranteed, automatic healing through prayer. They are the ones who treat God like a vending machine. The vast majority Charismatics know that God is God and He does things according to His will. And He knows the Bible a lot better than we do, seeing that He wrote it, so trying to get God to do what we want Him to do by Bible-bashing Him won't get us anywhere at all.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Correct and when we compare then with the time of Jesus and Paul we notice the difference.
Thats why we cant say that the sign gifts ( in this case healing) in the same way to expierience like in Jesus and Pauls time.
Today we will expierience it most on the missionfields, but not in the church, according the Slogan a true Christian cant be sick.

What sign gifts are you talking about? If Jesus doesn't heal today as He did when He was in the flesh ministering in Israel, does that mean that He has given up being compassionate? The real sign of His healing ministry was that God was showing the compassionate heart of the Father toward the sick and suffering. Has God now changed over the centuries, and that the Scripture is no longer true that Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever?

 

[Aidan1]

What sign gifts are you talking about? If Jesus doesn't heal today as He did when He was in the flesh ministering in Israel, does that mean that He has given up being compassionate? The real sign of His healing ministry was that God was showing the compassionate heart of the Father toward the sick and suffering. Has God now changed over the centuries, and that the Scripture is no longer true that Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever?

I thought you know the sign gifts ( healing, prophecie and toungues) thats why this thread exists.

Cessationists believe that all spiritual gifts are today exist as the bible teaches, except the gift of speaking in tongues, healing and prophecie.
Nor in Pauls time nor in Jesus time we can read that a believer has to pray for 20 years to be healed ore has to reach a certain stage of maturity.

Btw, all who believe that speaking in tongues, healing and phrophecie is for today in the the same way as in Pauls days are called per Definition either as pentecostal ore charismatic.

 

[CS1]

So

if you would be right, then why we dont have this today. The signs? Today there are living around 600 000 000 charismatics and pentecostals worlwide. People who claime what you said. Why then the official newspapers, TV news and so on are not full with this signs, as they was known in Peter and Pauls time in Jerusalem and in the places they worked?
Instead it is to notice that even in so called healing Services people leave this meetings still sick. Where is the sign?
Would you be right, then we would have today not a so called cessationism. Because it would be obvious that the sign gifts had not be finnished.
Of course today our father heals sick, but for this you must not go to healing services, but pray to the father and let Him the answer to your prayer. He knows you at best. And be not healed is not a sign of lack faith ore God is not loving you, as many people conclude today.
That speaking in tongues is a gift that will not receive every believer teaches Paul. In opposition to the charismatic/pentecostal teaching.

we do why you have not seen it doesn't remove they happen. You speak as if you are God.
You don't believe their testimony you only seek those in error. FYI People leave the hospital sick. GOd says yes, no and not yet.

IF you have the Holy Spirit yes every believer has the ability to be used by the Holy Spirit as HE chooses, yet the Holy Spirit will not make you speak in tongues no more than HE will make you obey God.

 

[CS1]

Correct and when we compare then with the time of Jesus and Paul we notice the difference.
Thats why we cant say that the sign gifts ( in this case healing) in the same way to expierience like in Jesus and Pauls time.
Today we will expierience it most on the missionfields, but not in the church, according the Slogan a true Christian cant be sick.

the complete ignorance. How is it one can see God gave man the great breakthrough we see today?


Do Doctors save lives or did God? Or is it possible God has given doctors the gift of Healing? If that is true because the Holy Spirit is Truth, and doctors are used to complementing the healing of God. BUT those who are doctors today many them think the knowledge that has increased is because of them. Pentacostel was wrong to say don't go to the doctors. Yes if you are sick see a physician and pray and go to the elders of the church having them anoint you with oil in the name of the Lord and the Prayer of faith Will raise them up.


God also heals because He loves and shows others HE is God. When the doctor tells you there is nothing more for you we can do God can and still does even if you did not see it. God doesn't need your validation of His word.

 

[Aidan1]

the complete ignorance. How is it one can see God gave man the great breakthrough we see today?


Do Doctors save lives or did God? Or is it possible God has given doctors the gift of Healing? If that is true because the Holy Spirit is Truth, and doctors are used to complementing the healing of God. BUT those who are doctors today many them think the knowledge that has increased is because of them. Pentacostel was wrong to say don't go to the doctors. Yes if you are sick see a physician and pray and go to the elders of the church having them anoint you with oil in the name of the Lord and the Prayer of faith Will raise them up.


God also heals because He loves and shows others HE is God. When the doctor tells you there is nothing more for you we can do God can and still does even if you did not see it. God doesn't need your validation of His word.

What for a great breakthrough? What you mean?
From what you are talking? I nowhere said that God is not healing today.
We are not talking about doctors. We are talking the healings Jesus and the Apostle did in their days, and the claiming from pentecostals and charismatics that we today have exactly the same. But without having the proof for this claiming.
The missing proof for this claiming is the reason, why Christians dont believe that this is for today. You call them Cessationalist.
Would you are be right with this claiming we had no reason for discuss about it.

 

[shittim]

The Father works through people, I Genesis we were given dominion, if we aren't seeing what Jesus modeled for us, the problem is not on His end.
The ministry of John G. Lake was profound in that he got great results and was able to teach many others how to seek and receive healing for others in they're ministry.
Currently the teaching and ministry of jglm.org has brought greater results from my prayers as well.

 

[throughfaith]

I can't argue with straight Scripture. But we must consider the sovereignty of God and that He does what He wants, not what we want. I don't think God will happily respond to us Bible-bashing Him like some Bible-bash others into submission to their will.

Just think about it. You pray for a sick person, and the person doesn't get healed. So you get your nose out of joint with God and you stand up to Him and assert that He is at fault because He didn't do what you thought His Word said He should do.

A New Zealand cartoonist created a clear picture of what that could be. In a recent situation where New Zealand stood up to the United States on an issue, he drew a cartoon depicting a little kiwi (the New Zealand bird symbol) shaking its fist at a gigantic, imposing American Eagle. Get the picture?

If the Apostle John, who leaned on Jesus' breast at the last supper, when He saw the risen, glorified Jesus in his Revelation vision he fell at His feet as if dead, what chance would you and me being able to stand on our hind legs if confronted with our great God in all His glory saying, "Who do you think you are, questioning My sovereignty in this issue?" I think Job felt pretty insecure when God appeared in a whirlwind saying, "Who is he who darkens counsel without knowledge?"

So, all we can really do in the face of God's sovereignty, is to make our request to God, thank Him for who He is, full of grace and mercy, and then leave the outcome to Him. The easy part for us is to be obedience and make our request in faith, believing His Word, and then leaving the difficult miraculous part to Him to do according to His will and not ours.

Yeah thats not what my point is . These sign gifts would have been immediate, punctual, effective, direct and not vague, uncertain , hit or miss , dependent on 'having enough faith 'and such . What your doing is looking at what you consider is today's experiences and imagining thats what mark 16 must have been like . No it would have been unique to anything we see today. And I don't mean the miracles God does . I'm talking about believers actually doing those things in Mark 16
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

This would be truly notable if this was occurring today ,exactly like this . But we don't see these signs accompanying anyone like this today. Today it seems like the Gospel is preached and people believe or not . Most peoples testimonies don't accompany those signs in Mark 16 . Its always some preacher on youtube claiming to have the gift of healing , casting out demons, drinking poison, and snake handling ect . What happens today is Mark 16 gets watered down to fit what people see happening, supposedly.

 

[throughfaith]

The Father works through people, I Genesis we were given dominion, if we aren't seeing what Jesus modeled for us, the problem is not on His end.
The ministry of John G. Lake was profound in that he got great results and was able to teach many others how to seek and receive healing for others in they're ministry.
Currently the teaching and ministry of jglm.org has brought greater results from my prayers as well.

My point would be that the sign gifts accompanied those that believed in Mark 16 . Not just some isolated individuals.

I can't argue with straight Scripture. But we must consider the sovereignty of God and that He does what He wants, not what we want. I don't think God will happily respond to us Bible-bashing Him like some Bible-bash others into submission to their will.

Just think about it. You pray for a sick person, and the person doesn't get healed. So you get your nose out of joint with God and you stand up to Him and assert that He is at fault because He didn't do what you thought His Word said He should do.

A New Zealand cartoonist created a clear picture of what that could be. In a recent situation where New Zealand stood up to the United States on an issue, he drew a cartoon depicting a little kiwi (the New Zealand bird symbol) shaking its fist at a gigantic, imposing American Eagle. Get the picture?

If the Apostle John, who leaned on Jesus' breast at the last supper, when He saw the risen, glorified Jesus in his Revelation vision he fell at His feet as if dead, what chance would you and me being able to stand on our hind legs if confronted with our great God in all His glory saying, "Who do you think you are, questioning My sovereignty in this issue?" I think Job felt pretty insecure when God appeared in a whirlwind saying, "Who is he who darkens counsel without knowledge?"

So, all we can really do in the face of God's sovereignty, is to make our request to God, thank Him for who He is, full of grace and mercy, and then leave the outcome to Him. The easy part for us is to be obedience and make our request in faith, believing His Word, and then leaving the difficult miraculous part to Him to do according to His will and not ours.

Mark 16 is a direct promise of what was going to happen to those that believed.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
These are the expected SIGNS that would follow all who believed. Now its clear in the epistles this doesn't continue through. In Context we see Israel require a SIGN so as Israel carries on rejecting Jesus through Acts until the focus then shifts to Gentiles, its perfectly reasonable to see that these sign gifts are no longer the focus .Because Israel, who require SIGNS are not the focus . This changes during the tribulation, where these SIGNS will be used again .

 

[CS1]

What for a great breakthrough? What you mean?
From what you are talking? I nowhere said that God is not healing today.
We are not talking about doctors. We are talking the healings Jesus and the Apostle did in their days, and the claiming from pentecostals and charismatics that we today have exactly the same. But without having the proof for this claiming.
The missing proof for this claiming is the reason, why Christians dont believe that this is for today. You call them Cessationalist.
Would you are be right with this claiming we had no reason for discuss about it.

LOL, are you blind? If you have to ask what great Breakthrough medically that is an answer to many prayers I don't what to tell you.
And when you say "I nowhere said that God is not healing today."

You really mean I have not seen anything that is healing by God today but yes God can heal.

Why are you not praying for the sick? FYI yes if you did not know this Jesus supported doctors FYI Luke was one.

This is why your Bias is so troubling for you. You did not even see where I said

Pentecostals were wrong doe saying don't go to the doctor. God uses Doctors to heal too. At least we are able to admit when we have been wrong unlike you.

 

[throughfaith]

LOL, are you blind? If you have to ask what great Breakthrough medically that is an answer to many prayers I don't what to tell you.
And when you say "I nowhere said that God is not healing today."

You really mean I have not seen anything that is healing by God today but yes God can heal.

Why are you not praying for the sick? FYI yes if you did not know this Jesus supported doctors FYI Luke was one.

This is why your Bias is so troubling for you. You did not even see where I said

Pentecostals were wrong doe saying don't go to the doctor. God uses Doctors to heal too. At least we are able to admit when we have been wrong unlike you.

Sign gifts ( Mark 16) are of no use to gentiles, in preaching the gospel the Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation. Gentiies don't have a history to equate ' miracles ' , the supernatural with the God of the bible. So Sign gifts are lost on gentiles.

 

[CS1]

Sign gifts ( Mark 16) are of no use to gentiles, in preaching the gospel the Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation. Gentiies don't have a history to equate ' miracles ' , the supernatural with the God of the bible. So Sign gifts are lost on gentiles.

says who you? LOL. hahaha, Yea tell that to those in India and Africa when this gentile went there and God healed people LOl.

I did not know God was a respecter of person concerning the Holy Spirit and His power. I guess I should not be saved because I am a gentile/

I guess Peter should just have disobeyed Jesus and not gone to Cornelious's House Because Jesus really did not mean it when HE said,


No NOT call what I have cleaned unclean and common. In context to the gentiles.

 

[throughfaith]

says who you? LOL. hahaha, Yea tell that to those in India and Africa when this gentile went there and God healed people LOl.

I did not know God was a respecter of person concerning the Holy Spirit and His power. I guess I should not be saved because I am a gentile/

I guess Peter should just have disobeyed Jesus and not gone to Cornelious's House Because Jesus really did not mean it when HE said,


No NOT call what I have cleaned unclean and common. In context to the gentiles.

what happened with Cornelius was for the benefit of Peter and those Jews to let THEM know God was moving to the Gentiies.
Acts 11
17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

 

[CS1]

what happened with Cornelius was for the benefit of Peter and those Jews to let THEM know God was moving to the Gentiies.
Acts 11
17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

so the gentiles did not benefit from the Holy Spirit coming on them the way the Apostles received? Even though Peter said they received Just as we have. Why were they given the Holy Spirit for a show? Peter was already preaching to them in obedience to Jesus The Holy Spirit did not have to fall.

When Jesus said in ACTS 1:8 " You shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon you and you shall be my witnesses"
The gentiles who received the same Power the Apostles did but did not get power to be a witness?

rediculous.

 

[throughfaith]

so the gentiles did not benefit from the Holy Spirit coming on them the way the Apostles received? Even though Peter said they received Just as we have. Why were they given the Holy Spirit for a show? Peter was already preaching to them in obedience to Jesus The Holy Spirit did not have to fall.

When Jesus said in ACTS 1:8 " You shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon you and you shall be my witnesses"
The gentiles who received the same Power the Apostles did but did not get power to be a witness?

rediculous.

You keep moving the goal posts. I'm talking about ' SIGN ' gifts .

 

[throughfaith]

so the gentiles did not benefit from the Holy Spirit coming on them the way the Apostles received? Even though Peter said they received Just as we have. Why were they given the Holy Spirit for a show? Peter was already preaching to them in obedience to Jesus The Holy Spirit did not have to fall.

When Jesus said in ACTS 1:8 " You shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon you and you shall be my witnesses"
The gentiles who received the same Power the Apostles did but did not get power to be a witness?

rediculous.

Who shall receive power in Acts 1.8 ?

 

[CS1]

You keep moving the goal posts. I'm talking about ' SIGN ' gifts .

You are not seeing that the Gifts are of the Holy Spirit all of them. all gifts are sign gifts

they are vocal three, power three, knowledge three. They are all given to the Church.