Are Seminaries and Bible Colleges Biblical?

[presidente]

Well, if I understand what you're telling me, that a prophet only speaks NEW REVELATION, as in brand new words from God that aren't already recorded, then I agree with you on that.

I think it has to do more with the fact that God moved the prophets to speak the words, rather than if the words and concepts had been spoken before. There is repetition of themes and even words between Moses and the prophets and throughout the prophetic writings. An idea does not have to be 'new' to be prophesied. God can speak through someone about the past, present, or future-- whatever He wants to say.

Since the faith has been 'once delivered to the saints', we should not expect a totally new doctrine.

 

[crossnote]

You take care and effort to provide me these definitions to help me. You seek the breadth of accumulated worldly knowledge on these matters. And I appreciate that. You do so out of kindness.

You notice I do not. But, I'm about to.

Psalm 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

Does anyone need worldly definitions to understand that verse? Do we need a filter of worldly definitions and delineations to understand scripture?

Pursuit of worldly knowledge is wearisome; isn't it?

Ecclesiastes 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

I guess that makes Paul worldly...

2 Timothy 4:13 (KJV) The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

 

[Dino246]

I do not believe that. I do not believe that God is speaking in addition to the Scripture at all.

So what was God doing with Philip's daughters in Acts 21:9? Why would God (through Paul) encourage the Corinthians to 'seek to prophesy' in Chapter 14? Why did John mention that so many of Jesus' actions (and, presumably, words) were not recorded, in John 21? How could Agabus be known as a prophet before his prophecy about the famine was spoken, in Acts 11:27?

In these passages, the Bible tells us with adequate clarity that God speaks outside of Scripture. In other words, sometimes God spoke, and His words did not become Scripture. He continues to speak today, without the intent that His words become Scripture.

That undermines your belief rather thoroughly, wouldn't you say?

 

[crossnote]

His words did not become Scripture. He continues to speak today, without the intent that His words become Scripture.

What good would it be?
If it's not new, well, we already have Scripture.
If it is new we'd have to test it against Scripture to see if it is true.

 

[Dino246]

What good would it be?
If it's not new, well, we already have Scripture.
If it is new we'd have to test it against Scripture to see if it is true.

This assumes that God only speaks about issues that are relevant for everyone. Nothing in Scripture says that He only does this. While we are wise to test against Scripture those things that are directly addressed in Scripture, many issues are not, but God is still free to address them.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

You can call me names all you want!

As far as I know I did not call you any names. I did suggest you have self-pride though.

Eschatology means "the study of the end." That is accepted by most people who study end times.

Most people in the world don't accept Christianity, so what does that mean? Nothing.
So if I take a minority position in the seminary world what does that mean? Nothing.
But you want the latter but not the former.

Biology is a term for the learned, the study of life is the term for the unlearned.
A subdivision of Biology is Zoology, and for the unlearned is the study of animals.
The learned have created words to elevate themselves against the unlearned.
You have theology which is the study of God to the unlearned.
And a subdivision of theology is eschatology to the learned, while it is the study of the "end times" to the unlearned.
So those who run the seminaries have made a science out of knowing God.
And in various and subtle ways they claim that you can't fully know God unless you got through their burdensome system.
https://tabletalkmagazine.com/posts/why-study-theology/

You falsely accuse me of things I have never said.
I have never imposed any rule or law saying, "You shall not go to seminary".
I never said, "You need to avoid seminary".
I never laid any burden on anyone else here. NEVER.

It is you who lay the burden on me. You are the one that said I "need" to learn from the learned.

And because I don't accept that burden you lay on me, you revile me.
Because I question the burden you lay on me, you detest me.
Because I don't accept your burden you attack me with Red Xs and insult me.

This is what the pharisee's do. They lay burdens on others.

Luke 11:46
"Woe to you as well, experts in the law!" He replied. "You weigh men down with heavy burdens, but you yourselves will not lift a finger to lighten their load.

And some of the pharisee's were believers. I never accused anyone of being an unbeliever - except for the pope. So don't act like I questioned your faith.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

I am sorry if you were insulted, but you insulted me, by putting down seminaries, when you have never attended one.

I apologize for offending you. I know I have errors in me. And I am still blind to some of them. I am working out my faith with fear and trembling. Please forgive and bare with me. I will do the same with you too.

I would say Jesus was the one who put down the pharisee's. I am testing to see if the seminaries are today's pharisee's. And a number of indications say they are. But, I am not finished with my testing. I may never be. And I fear I am being a judge of my brothers. Don;t think I don''t fear this. That is why you and I both rest in the finished work of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
So we agree on that, AMEN. Love you! Please don't be mad at me. I am sorry for my shortcomings.

 

[crossnote]

This assumes that God only speaks about issues that are relevant for everyone. Nothing in Scripture says that He only does this. While we are wise to test against Scripture those things that are directly addressed in Scripture, many issues are not, but God is still free to address them.

Do you know of anyone who receives these special words from God? And how would you know they are from God?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

I believe Ephesians 4:11-12: "And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ." It doesn't really say if this has to always occur in a church setting, but I personally believe it works best that way—that is, as long as the church works like it's supposed to and isn't dysfunctional.

Apostle could be the seminary president
the prophets the deans
The evangelists the professors
the shepherds and teachers their students the pastors.

But then some argue that the office of apostle has ended. So what would that make the seminary president then? The chief priest?
Others suggest the office of prophet has ceased, so what does that make the dean?
So that would leave the evangelists, the shepards and the teachers.

Some argue there are only two offices in the church: overseer and deacon.
But then there are more than two offices in the seminary.

another question is that is this a hiearchy of sorts or not? Some interpret it as a hierachy others do not.

I don't have all these answers.

I know christians have freedom in Christ. So I would say Christians have the freedom to choose seminary or to not choose seminary.
but I feel you almost have to go to seminary to be a pastor. So there is your burden that is laid on you. I know some say well techinaclly that is not so, but I am sure it is difficult to become a pastor without seminary.
It is not my position to advise you one way or the other. The world is the world.

But what does scripture say?

Ecclesiastes 12
9 Besides being wise, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge, weighing and studying and arranging many proverbs with great care. 10 The Preacher sought to find words of delight, and uprightly he wrote words of truth.

11 The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd. 12 My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.


So the many books you must buy and read in seminary, the wise warning from God is clear: BEWARE! Be cautious and alert to the dangers.

 

[crossnote]

Apostle could be the seminary president
the prophets the deans
The evangelists the professors
the shepherds and teachers their students the pastors.

I believe Ephesians 4:11-12 is in the context of the Church, not the seminary, so the whole body may be edified.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Are The Seminaries The Pharisees of Today?

How much does The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary cost?
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Cost of Attendance
In-state $18,860
Out-of-state $18,860
On-Campus Room and Board $6,700
Off-Campus Room and Board
Average Annual Cost $22,863
https://www.raise.me/edu/the-southern-baptist-theological-seminary

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SEMINARY LOANS AND UNDERGRADUATE STUDENT LOANS?
THE GOVERNMENT TREATS YOU LIKE AN ADULT
THERE ISN’T NEED-BASED AID
SEMINARY LOANS HAVE HIGHER INTEREST RATES
INTEREST STARTS ACCRUING IMMEDIATELY
No one blinks an eye at someone taking out $50,000 in student loans to go to medical school. The minute that person graduates they’ll be earning at least three times that amount, often even more.
The 2018 salary poll of the Southern Baptist Convention found that full-time senior pastors age 35 and below earn an average of less than $60,000. Full-time ministerial staff of the same age earns an average of less than $50,000. Those are averages, not minimums.
https://pastorswallet.com/difference-between-seminary-loans-undergraduate-student-loans/


What Does Scripture Say?

Matthew 23:4
For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers

 

[Platosgal]

There is an argument " Study to show yourself approved unto God." 2 TIM 2:15

BUT
1 John 2:27
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

What does this mean? Study YOURSELF and beware of false doctrine, ( Rampant in today's alleged Bible schools and seminary)
Which has ALWAYS been a problem when you go to humans for wisdom

So I would say
Do not go to Bible school or Seminary unless you already have a personal Vital relationship with God's word
And a firm grasp on True Biblical doctrine

 

[presidente]

Are The Seminaries The Pharisees of Today?

How much does The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary cost?
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Cost of Attendance
In-state $18,860
Out-of-state $18,860
On-Campus Room and Board $6,700
Off-Campus Room and Board
Average Annual Cost $22,863
https://www.raise.me/edu/the-southern-baptist-theological-seminary

That's not cheap. Private schools do not get the government aid state schools do. That's not that a-typical when compared to private university tuition.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SEMINARY LOANS AND UNDERGRADUATE STUDENT LOANS?
THE GOVERNMENT TREATS YOU LIKE AN ADULT
THERE ISN’T NEED-BASED AID
SEMINARY LOANS HAVE HIGHER INTEREST RATES
INTEREST STARTS ACCRUING IMMEDIATELY

Can't seminary students get regular student loans?

Btw, does the government treat student loan borrowers like adults? There are programs to get loans forgiven (with the amount counting as income) for public service for 10 years, and they are talking about forgiving $10,000 or $50,000 of debt.

No one blinks an eye at someone taking out $50,000 in student loans to go to medical school. The minute that person graduates they’ll be earning at least three times that amount, often even more.

$50K sounds cheap to me for med school. You could probably spend that on a 2-year MBA program at a state university. Med school is four years. I hope they earn much more than three times that that over a lifetime.

The 2018 salary poll of the Southern Baptist Convention found that full-time senior pastors age 35 and below earn an average of less than $60,000. Full-time ministerial staff of the same age earns an average of less than $50,000. Those are averages, not minimums.
https://pastorswallet.com/difference-between-seminary-loans-undergraduate-student-loans/

What percentage of Southern Baptist seminary grads do not end up with a staff position at a church? How many wash cars at the car wash and have a little prison ministry or minister at their church on the side? I know a seminary grad, not Southern Baptist, who drove a bus and had a home group that last I talked to him. He did a language-related degree, not MDiv.

What Does Scripture Say?

Matthew 23:4
For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers

I interpret that to mean they were forbidding stuff, combined with a play on words giving a word picture of tying a burden on someone. Since 'binding' meant they did not allow it and, in the case of the Sanhedrin, thought God backed them up. He went on to give some false examples of their religious opinions.

If I ever start a Christian university that has a Bible degree, I think I'd require a double major, Bible and accounting, Bible and biology, Bible and communications, Bible and management, Bible and non-profit management. Give those people some marketable job skills. if it had graduate programs in theology and related majors, maybe the rest of the university could fund scholarships for those who are already qualified and active in ministry, recommended by churches, evangelists, etc.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

None of this is based on putting anyone in a man made box. That is your own paranoia. When I went to seminary, I was taught the interpretations and the eschatological views and then I was told to pick what I wanted.

Eschatology is a document dump on the believer orchestrated by the evil one. The seminaries are the primary engine that Satan uses to deliver this document dump.

A document dump (which eschatology has become) is giving the opposition (the believer) a large volume of material, usually on a Friday afternoon or late Friday evening (the time a believer starts to look into the biblical prophesy books). The dump is a hostile transfer of data used to confuse and to hide information that could implicate the dumper (man of lawlessness) of wrong doing. The documents are usually unsorted and many times duplicated, but always released at an inopportune time for the receiver.

The document dump is characteristic of the behavior of the dumper (satan). It shows an ongoing pattern of activities intended to deceive or cover up criminal conduct.
https://www.incsmart.biz/documentdump



Here is another definition:

A document dump (which eschatology has become) is the act of responding to an adversary's (believer's) request for information (about end times) by presenting the adversary (believer) with a large quantity of data that is transferred in a manner that indicates unfriendliness, hostility, or a legal (spiritual) conflict between the transmitter (man of lawlessness) and the receiver (believer) of the information. The shipment of dumped documents (the myriad of eschatological viewpoints and books) is unsorted, or contains a large quantity of information that is extraneous to the issue under inquiry, or is presented in an untimely manner, or some combination of these three characteristics.


Can anyone seriously argue against this?

 

[Dino246]

Do you know of anyone who receives these special words from God? And how would you know they are from God?

I have on occasion, and the circumstances of the situations confirm to me that it was God speaking.

 

[Dino246]

Eschatology is a document dump on the believer orchestrated by the evil one. The seminaries are the primary engine that Satan uses to deliver this document dump.
...
Can anyone seriously argue against this?

Yes, but it's far more efficient, and to the point, to dismiss it as ridiculous.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

So what was God doing with Philip's daughters in Acts 21:9? Why would God (through Paul) encourage the Corinthians to 'seek to prophesy' in Chapter 14? Why did John mention that so many of Jesus' actions (and, presumably, words) were not recorded, in John 21? How could Agabus be known as a prophet before his prophecy about the famine was spoken, in Acts 11:27?

In these passages, the Bible tells us with adequate clarity that God speaks outside of Scripture. In other words, sometimes God spoke, and His words did not become Scripture. He continues to speak today, without the intent that His words become Scripture.

That undermines your belief rather thoroughly, wouldn't you say?

I don't believe all of God's words or scriptures had yet been completed at that time. There may have been some prophesying then, but once God's finished the Bible, and ordered his words to us the way he intended, and warned about adding and subtracting to the prophesies of this book, all prophesying at that time would likely not have been from God as before.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

I guess that makes Paul worldly...

2 Timothy 4:13 (KJV) The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

What books and what parchments? The scriptures? Blank parchments to write letters? Personal documents ordering the church, who, what, where, when, when to visit, when to revisit, where to go next, etc?

 

[crossnote]

I have on occasion, and the circumstances of the situations confirm to me that it was God speaking.

Soo, we look for confirmation by circumstances?

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. (Heb 11:6)

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. (Heb 11:8)

These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
(Heb 11:13)

In Heb. 11, nearly every act of faith taking hold of God's promises, saw no 'confirming circumstance'.

 

[crossnote]

What books and what parchments? The scriptures? Blank parchments to write letters? Personal documents ordering the church, who, what, where, when, when to visit, when to revisit, where to go next, etc?

That's rather immaterial. You were downplaying the use of extra biblical material and obviously Paul, by stating both 'books' and 'parchments' used more than Scriptures. If you can prove books=parchments=Scriptures, then I'll listen.