50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[lamad]

Lol...no. There is just no way around these Scriptural entries...

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...r-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-91#post-4545060

It doesn't get any clearer than that man. In fact the Church has been raptured even before the Lamb takes the scroll from the Father.

Please show a scripture and your argument with that scripture and we will go from there. The truth is, Dr. Walvoord does not know everything. He is still of the mind that the seals are in the 70th week. He is mistaken there.

 

[presidente]

Context in mat and luke is pretrib

The hermeneutical approach seems to be assume pre-trib and pretend the passage offers evidence for pre-trib.

 

[Absolutely]

Sorry, but this theory is myth, and not according to the scriptures.

There is not one hint in their description that they are the martyrs. On the other hand, there are many hints that they are the just raptured church. Paul said his rapture would come just before wrath, and in Revelation wrath starts at the 6th seal - so the rapture will happen between the 5th and 6th seals. Then the church seen in heaven right after that. It all lines up.

Don't be led astray by the word great: it is used here for the 2000 years of tribulation the church has had to put up with. As Jesus said, we WILL have tribulation. In this case the tribulation is great, not because of intensity but because of 2000 years.

Next, if you believe and understand John, at this point in his narrative he had not even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the days of GT Jesus spoke of that would come after the abomination that will divide the week. This group cannot possibly be martyrs of the days of GT Jesus spoke of. Those martyrs begin showing up in heaven in Rev. 15.

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes
1) they are full of grief
2) they are in the great tribulation. Severe hunger and the sun's heat intense from a corrupted sky.
3) their robes had to be washed. Indicating the came in with dirty robes ( carnal nominal believers walking in unconfessed sin).

The rapture pretrib
The innumerable number during the trib...martyrs.

 

[lamad]

How is that passage supposed to fit with pre-trib? Don't pretribbers think the sealed members of the tribes are tribulational saints that arise after the rapture?
Revelation 7
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And later in the passage:

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How is the bolded part reconcilable with pre-trib?

Answered in a previous post not five minutes ago, but will answer again.

John broke from His narrative of the seals between the 6th and 7th for a very good reason. He had to "rearrange the set" for the next act: the start of the 70th week and the first event of wrath: the first trumpet judgment.

"Rearranging the set" means, God wanted to see TWO EVENTS accomplished before God's wrath begins:

1. The 144,000 MUST be sealed
2. The church MUST be seen safely in heaven.

Then John saw the 7th seal opened: the offical start of the 70th week of Daniel - a time for HIS people, not the church.

 

[Absolutely]

The hermeneutical approach seems to be assume pre-trib and pretend the passage offers evidence for pre-trib.

you are presenting me with noah and lot as postrib dynamics?

Using noah and lot to illustrate the rapture happens after the flood/ sodom destroyed?
Please introduce a verse to match your reasoning.

 

[lamad]

The hermeneutical approach seems to be assume pre-trib and pretend the passage offers evidence for pre-trib.

Did Lot stay in his house and God protect him there, or did God REMOVE Him and his house destroyed?

 

[ResidentAlien]

You have an opportunity to show us what you believe.

Surely you have a verse.

You are on a forum...not a bible college

Yes, I have plenty of verses. You already know what they are and have your rebuttal down pat. I'm not into wasting my time that way, life's too short.

 

[lamad]

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes
1) they are full of grief
2) they are in the great tribulation. Severe hunger and the sun's heat intense from a corrupted sky.
3) their robes had to be washed. Indicating the came in with dirty robes ( carnal nominal believers walking in unconfessed sin).

The rapture pretrib
The innumerable number during the trib...martyrs.

Except there is not one word to hint they are martyrs, and John has not yet started "the trib." They are the raptured church, raptures just moments before the start of the Day of the Lord. (6h seal)

 

[presidente]

Aaahhhmmmm.........Go ahead and try and find the term "Church" between the Rev 6 through 18.

The usage of the word 'ekklesia' changes throughout the writing of the New Testament, being used for slightly different concepts. Paul eventually uses it to refer to all believers, throughout time and space as Robert Banks put it in one of his books. He preferred that to church universal since it includes the dead in Christ.

But the more literal usage in the New Testament is in reference to an actual assembly. In Revelation, the congregations in cities are called 'churches', but 'saints' is used for believers throughout the earth in various locations.

II Thessalonians 1 shows that Jesus will return and give the church rest when he executes judgment on them that know not God and to be glorified in His saints.

You had better tell your buddy Runningman the only people described in those chapters are gentiles and ethnic Israelites.

This is an example of assuming pre-trib theory and reading it into the passage. The Bible does refer to members of tribes of Israel being sealed, but it does not say that all saints are ethnic israelites.

And ask yourself what ever happened to the mandate of the Church to preach....as they are not present and the preaching is done by ethnic Israelites.

Again, just assuming a pre-trib scenario. Where does the Bible say that the 144,000 will preach?

End time B movies are not Bible.

The Church however is clearly noted in chapters 2 through 5. They are in heaven in chapters 4 and 5.

This is something you assume. Do you have any evidence for it? There is a reference to elders. Even if we assume they are human, how is this proof of a pre-trib rapture? Do you think the cherubim were raptured also?

Again, pre-trib rests on assuming pre-trib interpretations of passages that really do not offer any concrete evidence for pre-trib. Just because you can interpret a passage through a pre-trib lens does not make the passage evidence for pretrib.

 

[presidente]

Yes, I have plenty of verses. You already know what they are and have your rebuttal down pat. I'm not into wasting my time that way, life's too short.

Or he can just ignore questions, like how can II Thessalonians 1 be reconciled with pretrib.

 

[lamad]

How is that passage supposed to fit with pre-trib? Don't pretribbers think the sealed members of the tribes are tribulational saints that arise after the rapture?
Revelation 7
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And later in the passage:

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How is the bolded part reconcilable with pre-trib?

Did you ever wonder and try to calculate how big the dead in Christ group will be? Perhaps 50 generatations of believers in one place at one time: BILLIONS of people. If one could count one person a second, 24 hours a day it would take over 30 years to count to ONE billion! The gathering will be multiplied billions of people - just as John described them.

Where did they come from? From the church age, one by one and continuing. The church age has been one long time of tribulation - some times and places greater than others. Can you allow God to use "mega" to represent 2000 years of tribulation? (John does not get to the days of GT Jesus spoke of until chapter 14!)

 

[presidente]

Answered in a previous post not five minutes ago, but will answer again.

John broke from His narrative of the seals between the 6th and 7th for a very good reason. He had to "rearrange the set" for the next act: the start of the 70th week and the first event of wrath: the first trumpet judgment.

"Rearranging the set" means, God wanted to see TWO EVENTS accomplished before God's wrath begins:

1. The 144,000 MUST be sealed
2. The church MUST be seen safely in heaven.

Then John saw the 7th seal opened: the offical start of the 70th week of Daniel - a time for HIS people, not the church.

Again, this is an example of "Let's interpret the passage this way so it fits with pre-trib." My concerns over this are:

1. No passages that teach pre-trib to justify all of this fitting interpretations of passages to pre-trib.
2. The passages that just do not fit pre-trib, like Matthew 24, and I Thessalonians 4, II Thessalonians 1 and 2 taken together.

How is the fact that you can come up with a pre-trib way to read a certain passage justification for assuming multiple parousia of Christ or stretching the parousia/coming of Jesus out for seven years. It just doesn't work with Paul's epistles.

 

[Absolutely]

This is really funny. Have you actually read through all of Revelation? It is ALL about and FOR the church.

Rev 1-
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Rev 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

The first 3 chapters are DEDICATED to 7 churches.

Given these 2 "bookends" which mentions "the churches" clearly, one doesn't need to ask where there is any mention of "churches" in the intervening chapters. That's called closed mindedness.


So you are just going to ignore about 4,000 years of dead saints that are already in heaven, huh? Sheeesh.

Keep in mind that there are now about 2,000 years of NT believers in heaven already. So by the time the Second Coming occurs, the VAST MAJORITY of NT believers (church) will already be in heaven. So your claim doesn't change anything.

Most of church age believers will already be in heaven when the resurrection/rapture occurs.

Except Jesus framed his coming before the flood...consistent with lot and noah taken away before judgement.
And then we see Jesus DURING THE GT sitting on a cloud and gathering ripe fruit FROM THE EARTH.

 

[presidente]

Except Jesus framed his coming before the flood...consistent with lot and noah taken away before judgement.
And then we see Jesus DURING THE GT sitting on a cloud and gathering ripe fruit FROM THE EARTH.

Again, just taking passages and trying to fit them with pre-trib, instead of showing us scripture that teaches pre-trib to justify all these interpretations.

Matthew 24 sets the sign of the coming of the Son of Man 'after the tribulation' in one of the passages you are referring to. Regarding Noah and the flood, the passage says, "so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be."

It does not fit in this case.

Again, the problem with pre-trib is there is no real evidence for it, just lots of passages you can try to make work with pre-trib, but then there are passages that do not fit.

 

[cv5]

It goes with the understanding of John's chronology. He starts chapter 4 with Christ on earth, then His resurrection, then His ascension back into heaven, then opening the seals to start the church age, then TIME passes as martyrs are killed, then finally the church age ends and the Day of the Lord begins, then the 70th week begins, then the midpoint comes (7th trumpet) and then the end (7th vial), then Jesus returns to armageddon, then the 1000 year reign, then the GWT and then eternity. No flashbacks. No backpeddling. He did use parenthesis to just ahead for the two witnesses and for the Beast and False prophet. He did stop his timeline of the seals, trumpets and vials for intermissions to redo the setting to fit the next act - so to speak.

I said all that to preface this: in chapter 7 the church age has just ended and the day of the Lord has just started, but NO EVENTS yet. John has to "rearrange the set" before he can proceed with the 7th seal that officially starts the 70th week and the first event of God's wrath: trumpet 1.

TWO events MUST take place before the first event of wrath is accomplished: the church must be safely seen in heaven. CHECK! The great crowd. The 144,000 MUST be sealed. Check. Accomplished.

Then the 7th seal is opened to reveal the trumpets.

In comparison, here are the tribulation martyrs:

Rev. 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
(The trib' martyrs will begin when the days of GT begin, and they are caused by the Beast and False Prophet that are not even mentioned until chapter 13. )

You're saying that Rev ch 4 has Christ on earth? Nope the whole chapter is located exclusively in the domain of heaven. In fact God's throne is mentioned ***11*** times, heaven at least twice. Maybe that's where you're getting confused.....?

 

[cv5]

The usage of the word 'ekklesia' changes throughout the writing of the New Testament, being used for slightly different concepts. Paul eventually uses it to refer to all believers, throughout time and space as Robert Banks put it in one of his books. He preferred that to church universal since it includes the dead in Christ.

But the more literal usage in the New Testament is in reference to an actual assembly. In Revelation, the congregations in cities are called 'churches', but 'saints' is used for believers throughout the earth in various locations.

II Thessalonians 1 shows that Jesus will return and give the church rest when he executes judgment on them that know not God and to be glorified in His saints.



This is an example of assuming pre-trib theory and reading it into the passage. The Bible does refer to members of tribes of Israel being sealed, but it does not say that all saints are ethnic israelites.



Again, just assuming a pre-trib scenario. Where does the Bible say that the 144,000 will preach?

End time B movies are not Bible.

This is something you assume. Do you have any evidence for it? There is a reference to elders. Even if we assume they are human, how is this proof of a pre-trib rapture? Do you think the cherubim were raptured also?

Again, pre-trib rests on assuming pre-trib interpretations of passages that really do not offer any concrete evidence for pre-trib. Just because you can interpret a passage through a pre-trib lens does not make the passage evidence for pretrib.

That's it? That's all you've got? Laughable....

 

[lamad]

The usage of the word 'ekklesia' changes throughout the writing of the New Testament, being used for slightly different concepts. Paul eventually uses it to refer to all believers, throughout time and space as Robert Banks put it in one of his books. He preferred that to church universal since it includes the dead in Christ.

But the more literal usage in the New Testament is in reference to an actual assembly. In Revelation, the congregations in cities are called 'churches', but 'saints' is used for believers throughout the earth in various locations.

II Thessalonians 1 shows that Jesus will return and give the church rest when he executes judgment on them that know not God and to be glorified in His saints.



This is an example of assuming pre-trib theory and reading it into the passage. The Bible does refer to members of tribes of Israel being sealed, but it does not say that all saints are ethnic israelites.



Again, just assuming a pre-trib scenario. Where does the Bible say that the 144,000 will preach?

End time B movies are not Bible.

This is something you assume. Do you have any evidence for it? There is a reference to elders. Even if we assume they are human, how is this proof of a pre-trib rapture? Do you think the cherubim were raptured also?

Again, pre-trib rests on assuming pre-trib interpretations of passages that really do not offer any concrete evidence for pre-trib. Just because you can interpret a passage through a pre-trib lens does not make the passage evidence for pretrib.

The Church however is clearly noted in chapters 2 through 5. They are in heaven in chapters 4 and 5.

This is something you assume. Do you have any evidence for it?

I will have to agree with you here: so many pretribbers really don't know where the rapture is in relation to John's narrative in Revelation. They heard someone say the rapture was in Rev. 4:1. You and I both know that is very sloppy exegesis!

The truth is, the martyrs at the 5th seal are church age martyrs. And they are told judgment will not come until the very last martyr is killed. That is a strong hint of the time of the rapture. The rapture will end the church age so no more church age martyrs. And the very next thing John mentions is the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord. Paul teaches in 1 Thes. 5 that the rapture will come JUST before the Day of the Lord. All of this evidence places the rapture between the 5th and 6th seal, and of course just before the great crowd is seen in heaven.

 

[DJZawada]

I'm sorry but the 70 weeks have already been fulfilled and this had nothing to do with the Church, only Israel and the Temple as given to Daniel through the angel Gabriel. There is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture - it's confusion fantasy to cause the body of Christ to constantly bicker and argue, a trick of the enemy.

 

[lamad]

You're saying that Rev ch 4 has Christ on earth? Nope the whole chapter is located exclusively in the domain of heaven. In fact God's throne is mentioned ***11*** times, heaven at least twice. Maybe that's where you're getting confused.....?

No, I am not confused. People that don't understand Revelation and in particular the throne room vision are confused. Most have no idea what God is telling the readers in that throne room vision.

1. It is a book about Jesus Christ and Him REVEALED.
2. John sees a vision of the throne room - 95 AD
3. He sees the throne and God the Father on the throne, but DOES NOT SEE JESUS (in this book about His revelation!) at the right hand of the father. WHY? God is showing Him the throne room while Jesus is on the earth.
4. John sees the Holy Spirit there, in the throne room, when in 95 AD John would have expected Him to have been sent down some 60 years previous. WHY is the Holy Spirit there? (Jesus has not yet ascended in the vision)
5. John saw a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals - but no man was found. (Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer.)
6. Another search AFTER the first, and Jesus WAS found - showing us He had just risen from the dead - in the vision.
7. John then saw Jesus enter the throne room, having just ascended after sending Mary away.
8. Jesus immediately took the book and opened the first seal.

 

[cv5]

Again, just taking passages and trying to fit them with pre-trib, instead of showing us scripture that teaches pre-trib to justify all these interpretations.

Matthew 24 sets the sign of the coming of the Son of Man 'after the tribulation' in one of the passages you are referring to. Regarding Noah and the flood, the passage says, "so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be."

It does not fit in this case.

Again, the problem with pre-trib is there is no real evidence for it, just lots of passages you can try to make work with pre-trib, but then there are passages that do not fit.

You have not absorbed nor taken heed to even one single solitary point (of which there are a multitude) that supports the obvious fact of a pre-trib rapture.

I can ascertain the correctness of TDW posts within seconds or at most an hour or two of backchecking. And indeed they are correct......fully supported by Scripture.

So what's your problem?