When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

[Ahwatukee]

So ask a question.

Around 32 AD Jesus rose from the dead and became worthy to take the book and open the seals! Then he TOOK the book from the Father, and began opening seals....you don't consider these things significant?

The event of Jesus taking the scroll from the Father's hand is a future event which will take place in heaven after the church has been caught up.

As I said, the church being caught up in Rev.4:1 ends the "what is now" part of what John was told to write and which begins with the "what will take place later." Currently we are still in the "What is now" portion of the program.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be unprecedented future events, with the first seal initiating God's wrath. And since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath (because Jesus already did), then the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I failed to find the idea of "quickness" in any of 26 English translations. What word are you thinking of? I did find the idea of quickness in the word soon in Rev. 1:1. I think the meaning we could get today is, God is saying He is not going to wait another 4000 year to wrap this age up. (He's only going to wait 2000 years!) ;-)

What John has seen could include things outside of this vision - from his past.

Below is from the 'Berean Literal Bible" which is closest to the Interlinear.

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants what things it behooves to take place in quickness."

Therefore, it is the events of wrath and all related information which will take place in quickness once this time of God's wrath begins.

This is fine, but "the entire church period" in this book is not limited to the messages to the 7 churches.

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. what will take place after the church period. Sorry, but this is eisegesis, putting your preconceptions upon a verse. Case in point? John is still in the church period or time goes from seal 1 to seal 5 and ends with seal 6 which starts the Day of the Lord. Granted, the 70th week FOLLOWS the time of the church.

Interpreting the the 6th seal as initiating the wrath of God is an on-going error. The reason for this is that expositors see the statement which says "For the great day of their wrath has come and who is able to stand?" So, they interpret God's wrath has starting at the 6th seal, which is short-sightedness on their part. The words "has come" is in the 'aorist indicative active' tense and so the announcement of God's wrath includes the previous five seals as well. I would also point out that it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals and are all therefore all apart of God's wrath.

Always remember, the visions that John saw were future from his time frame. And except for the letters to the churches which represent the entire church period, everything from Revelation 4 onward is future to us as well.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Just because John quit writing about the church does not mean necessarily that the rapture just took place! John wrote what He SAW. Perhaps God only changes subjects: from the messages to the church - to JOHN so He would write and we would have this final book in the bible.

Revelation 4:1 along with the fact that the word ekklesia/church no longer appears after it was previously used 19 times, is a God-given clue that the church is no longer on the earth from Rev.4:1 onward.

I know, many people think Rev. 4:1 is the rapture. In reality it is JOHN caught up so we would have Revelation. Will the purpose of the church be to receive visions of the future? I think not. A rapture in 4:1 is very poor exegesis and simply does not fit Paul;s epistles. Note carefully, JOHN was a part of the church and He was caught up in 95 AD. So the timing of 4:1 is 95 AD according to tradition. "Saints" make up the church. I won't argue if John calls them "saints." Rather than this method to attempt to ask "when," for the rapture, WHY NOT ask Paul? After all, He received the revelation on the rapture. He, Paul, tells us that the rapture will come just before wrath.
Sorry. There are still church age martyrs being killed at the 5th seal![/quote]

The only reason that you reject this, as do others, is because it doesn't fit in with your interpretation. This is how it is with many. They adopt a teaching and they can receive no other message and reject it when some one comes along with the true answer.

The switch from church (chapters 1 thru 3) to Saints (the rest of the book) is making a division between the two. The use of the word hagios/saints is in reference to the saints who will come out of the great tribulation who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. John had already previously wrote to the seven churches and now he sees this group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them all Gentiles. The fact that the elder asks John who they are, demonstrates that this group is not the church and is never referred to as such. These are the saints who will have become believers after the church is gathered in Revelation 4:1 and during the time period of God's wrath. The church is never mentioned in the narrative of God's wrath, for they are caught up in Rev.4:1 with John representing the event as a prophetic allusion. The abomination is also mentioned in Revelation, which people fail to recognize because the word 'abomination' used in Daniel 9:27 and quoted by the Lord in Matt.24:15, is not used, but is instead described.

Your timing then for the rapture is way off. Paul said it would happen just before wrath and the day of the Lord, and said day is at the 6th seal. This fits perfectly for the martyrs had been asking when their murders would be judged. They were told that judgment must wait for the final church age martyr. Then John starts judgment with the 6th seal.

No, John does not start the judgment at the 6th seal, erroneous expositors do that! Jesus as the Lamb, is the One who is opening the seals and is therefore responsible for the resulting fatalities and destruction. The announcement "the great day of their wrath has come" is a general announcement which includes the plagues of wrath that will have already taken place, i.e. seals 1 thru 5.

The first seal rider on the white horse, is symbolically representing the antichrist and is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse of Revelation 19:11, which is the Lord.

When the 4th seal rider which is death on the pale green horse with Hades following close behind, they are given power to kill a fourth of the earth, which would be 25% of the earths population killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Combine that with the 6th trumpet which is a third of the inhabitants killed and you have over half the earths population killed during the first 3 1/2 years and that is not including the fatalities that will come from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments.

The events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be nothing like the world has ever seen. They are meant to be noticed and to get everyone's attention.

The rapture then must come between the 5th and 6th seal. It fits with Paul. It is no mistaken then that John saw the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter (7).

The gathering of the church (rapture) is the next event to take place which is imminent. Once that takes place, the 'Day of the Lord' will begin, with that ruler, the antichrist establishing his firm covenant with Israel which will allow them to build their temple and begin to make sacrifices and offerings.

In Daniel 9:24 seventy seven year periods or 490 years, was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. Seven 'seven' year periods or 49 years to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Then add on sixty nine seven year periods (434 years) at the end of which the Messiah would be cut off, which was Christ crucified. At the time the Lord paused the fulfillment of that last seven years and began to build His church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and gather the church. After that, the Lord will pick up right where He left off in fulfillment of that last seven years, complete with a temple and Israel under the law, just as it was when the decree was made. It is during this seven years that God will fulfill the decree to:

"finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

It is during this time that God will also pour His wrath out upon a Christ rejecting world.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hmmm.



Most of the church age was future to John in 95 AD. What was "now" to John was Rome, and the church in its infant stage. In Revelation the church age ends when the Day of the Lord begins. That is still future.

Agreed! The Day of the Lord, is still future. The majority of the book of Revelation is a detailed account of the Day of the Lord.

Sorry, but this is myth. It makes good eisegesis. The truth is, the church age lasts to the final church age martyr of the 5th seal. When the Day of the Lord begins, the church age ends.

No, the church age does not last to the 5th seal. I keep reminding you that, the Lamb/Jesus is the One who is opening the seals and is therefore responsible for the fatalities that result from them. If the church were on the earth during seal 1 thu 5, then you would have the Lord pouring out His wrath upon His church. I challenge you to find the word ekklesia/church anywhere after the end of chapter 3. You won't find it. And until you and others recognize the switch between church and saints, your interpretations will be incorrect. There is a reason for the division between the two. And if you don't recognize it, you will continue to err in your interpretation.

If I was only inferring then I will say it out LOUD: JESUS is the one who will rule with a rod of Iron. Jesus is the man child. Of course you are free to believe what you will. However, i can tell you what Jesus, the head of the church and the real Author of Revelation said about this:

What you are doing is pigeonholing the words "will ruler with a rod of iron."

There are three groups/person of whom scripture states will rule with a rod of iron:

The church
"And the one overcoming and keeping My works until the end, I will give to him authority over the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron - Rev.2:26-27

The Male Child (144,000)
And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter - Rev.12:5

The Lord Jesus Christ
And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter. - Rev.19:15

As I previously told you, Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the Male Child. Jesus was not snatched up to God's throne from the presence of the dragon. Jesus was crucified, buried and resurrected. He is not the Male Child.

“Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

So I counted, carefully: 32 times. I replied, “I see that this chapter is about the dragon. I counted 32 times.” I was not “in the spirit” at this time, because I marked all the mentions of the Dragon and then counted them up. He waited for me.

He spoke again.

“I also chose to show John how the dragon attempted to kill me as a young child. Those first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John.”

The number of times that dragon is mentioned as no bearing whatsoever on anything. The context is about what is going to happen to the woman (Israel) during the time of God's wrath and her persecution by the dragon. The dragon/Satan and the stars/his angels, will be cast out of heaven around the middle of the seven years. We know this because as soon as he is cast to the earth, the woman flees from the dragon out into the desert where she will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. This fleeing is synonymous with the desolation caused by the setting up of the abomination in Matt.24:15-22

If you doubt me, go ahead and YOU count the mentions of the dragon - including pronouns. Without a doubt this chapter was God introducing John to the dragon, and especially what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. However, Jesus CHOSE to show John what the dragon did when He was a young boy: Satan used King Herod in an attempt to KILL Jesus.

As I said, Revelation 12 has nothing whatsoever to do with the past, but is speaking about future events and therefore has nothing to do with king Herod.

Jesus started this part of the vision with John seeing the constellation Virgo. The first mention of "woman: is Virgo. God placed Virgo in the sky to represent the virgin giving birth. So at first, The "woman" is the Virgo the virgin that people see in the sky every month. The second mention of "the woman is for Mary crying out in child birth, and it is Jesus being born. Remember, Jesus said this is a "history lesson." The third mention of "the woman" is a subset of Israel: those in Judea fleeing because they have seen the abomination.

Man! I don't know who you have been listening to, but it is not the Spirit of God. God supports scripture with scripture to reveal to us who the woman is by using the same symbols in Revelation that were used in Genesis 37:9-10. The woman of Revelation 12 is not Mary. And no, Jesus did not say that it was a history lesson, you did. The woman of Rev.12:5, is the same woman mentioned in Revelation 12:13-17. In verse 5 the woman flees and is cared for during that 1260 days, which in 30 day increments equals 3 1/2 years. In Rev.12:14 that same 1260 days is referred to as 'a time, times and half a time' which is referring to the same 3 1/2 years, at the end of which Christ returns to end the age.

In verse 13 the woman is Israel. In verse 14, 15, and 16 the woman is those of Israel who fled.
Note that even the virgin comes from Israel.

The woman of Rev.12:1-6, is the same woman mentioned in Rev.12:13-17.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Who said? You? John never said it! Is virgo real or symbolic? Ask yourself, can someone see symbolic stars? No, the description of the constellation is REAL and LITERAL, not symbolic.

Below is the God-given identity of who the woman of Revelation 12 is:

================================================================
"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”
================================================================

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife/wives

Stars = eleven of the twelve tribes, with Joseph as the one who had the dream as number twelve

Therefore, the woman of Revelation 12 who is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars is symbolically representing the nation of Israel as a whole. It has nothing to do with Mary or Herod or anything with the past, but is an event that will take place in the future, when Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven.

Was Jesus born of a woman? Was he ever a little child? Then that is literal too. Don't ever make something that makes sense in its literal sense into something symbolic! Everyone would have something different. If something makes sense taken literally, then take it that way. Did you not know? The picture of Virgo with the moon under her feet, clothed with the sun and with a crown of stars is exactly how Virgo would have appeared on Sept. 1 (if I remember right) in 2 BC - according to Stellarium software. I searched from 10 BC to 10 AD and 2 BC fit perfectly. Just saying....

I'm telling you, you are barking up the wrong trees. As I said, everything in Revelation 12:1-6 is symbolic. The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is not a literal woman. Just like the woman of Revelation 17 is not a literal woman.

She is not literally pregnant and does not give literal birth. This is all symbolism representing what is literal:

The woman clothed with the sun = Jacob

With the moon under her feet = wife/wives

And wearing a crown of twelve stars = the twelve tribes of Israel

The woman then symbolically represents the nation Israel as a whole

Did Satan get kicked out of heaven? Check!

Satan and his angels currently have access to heaven, for the scripture states that he is accusing the saints night and day before God.

Did He take 1/3 of the angels with him? I have always heard this. I tend to believe it.

Sorry, but I am taking this as literal. (the stars are angels)

The reference to the dragon sweeping a third of the stars out of heaven and flinging them to the earth, is not recounting the past, but what is going to happen which is mentioned in verse 7 when the dragon/Satan and the stars/his angels, are cast to the earth in the middle of the seven years.

Rev.12:1-6 is a summary, where Rev.12:7-17 is a detailed account of the same woman and her fleeing out into the wilderness.

Because at one time He WAS a male child that Satan tried to murder?

As for harpazō It can mean snatched as in quickly and/or by force, but it was used for Philip being caught away and for Paul being taken to heaven - probably when He was stoned. I see no reason why Jesus ascension cannot fit harpazo.

Well then, you have not understood what the word 'harpazo' means. Why do you, like so many others, fight against the truth by offering up false apologetics. Instead, why not be like a Berean and check to see if what I am saying is the truth, because I can guarantee you that everything that I have told you is the truth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Next, it has long been the thought of pretrib that the 70th week starts with the first seal.

You are misinformed about this.

In any event, all the seals were opened at the same time when the visions were revealed (1st century). But the events within those seals would follow a certain chronological sequence as outlined in the Olivet Discourse.

So the events of the 6th seal will take place in the future, but after the events of the 7th seal (as noted in the Olivet Discourse).

The events of the first five seals have been taking place since the 1st century. The four horsemen of the Apocalypse were released long ago. False Christs, wars, famines, ravening beasts, and pestilences have been ravaging the earth all along. The frequency and intensity of earthquakes has been growing.

And if the woke environmentalists would only read the Bible, they would discover that saving this planet is futile. It will all be burned up with a supernatural fire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, sorry, not a guess. It comes right from the written text.

Let's see: who was in the room:
God the FAther who had the book, before Jesus took it.
The four beasts.
The 24 elders.

sorry, not resurrected saints - UNLESS the 24 elders are those whom Jesus raised when HE was raised.
Perhaps I don't understand your point. Why would their be resurrected saints when Jesus opens the first seal? He opened in as soon as He ascended and took the book.

What did they say

Rev 5:
And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

so your right in the fact I did not guess, I just stated what the word said, they are redeemed sainuts out of every nation on earth. Who have crowns of gold and white robes,

it is raptured saints my friend

 

[lamad]

The event of Jesus taking the scroll from the Father's hand is a future event which will take place in heaven after the church has been caught up.

As I said, the church being caught up in Rev.4:1 ends the "what is now" part of what John was told to write and which begins with the "what will take place later." Currently we are still in the "What is now" portion of the program.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be unprecedented future events, with the first seal initiating God's wrath. And since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath (because Jesus already did), then the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened.

Anyone can pull a verse out of its context and make it say almost anything.

We have a choice: read the text and believe it, or believe someone's imagination. I am going to go with the text here.

Rev.5:
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
[What did Jesus, the Lion of Judah, prevail over here that no other man ever did? He rose from the dead: 32 AD]
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. [Again very plain: Jesus ascended shortly after he rose from the dead. He had to send Mary away, after telling her that He had not yet ascended. So He rose from the dead, then ascended.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
[This is extremely clear - no one should miss the meaning: Jesus took the book. That means, as soon as Jesus ascended, He took possession of the book. You cannot find 2000 years here anywhere because God's intent was that the first seal get opened immediately So He could LEGALLY send out the church. (This book sealed with seals is a legal document created in heaven. Nothing written on the seals can take place legally until that seal has been opened.)

This text proves your theory needs some rethinking. I have a suggestion: why not form theory from what is written?

the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened.

This is just more human reasoning based on a false theory. The first seal was opened in 32 AD SO THAT the church could legally be sent out to make disciples of all nations. It should be obvious now, a rapture in 4:1 is just more human imagination. The church is alive and well and at the first seal sent out to make disciples of all nations.

Jesus, John and the text are in 32 AD, and you imagine it is future. How could this be?

 

[lamad]

Below is from the 'Berean Literal Bible" which is closest to the Interlinear.

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants what things it behooves to take place in quickness."

Therefore, it is the events of wrath and all related information which will take place in quickness once this time of God's wrath begins.



Interpreting the the 6th seal as initiating the wrath of God is an on-going error. The reason for this is that expositors see the statement which says "For the great day of their wrath has come and who is able to stand?" So, they interpret God's wrath has starting at the 6th seal, which is short-sightedness on their part. The words "has come" is in the 'aorist indicative active' tense and so the announcement of God's wrath includes the previous five seals as well. I would also point out that it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals and are all therefore all apart of God's wrath.

Always remember, the visions that John saw were future from his time frame. And except for the letters to the churches which represent the entire church period, everything from Revelation 4 onward is future to us as well.

Therefore, it is the events of wrath and all related information which will take place in quickness once this time of God's wrath begins.

I can agree with this statement. It all happens in a little over 7 years.

You are mistaken on the Aorist tense verbs. The truth is, they show no tense at all. You cannot prove a past tense, a present tense or a future tense from an Aorist verb. In Revelation we must go by the verse of first mention to find out WHEN.

Do you imagine God is mad at His martyrs at the 5th seal?

 

[lamad]

Always remember, the visions that John saw were future from his time frame. And except for the letters to the churches which represent the entire church period, everything from Revelation 4 onward is future to us as well.

Sorry, but I will not want to remember error. You are simply mistaken in your theory.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What did they say

Rev 5:
And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

so your right in the fact I did not guess, I just stated what the word said, they are redeemed sainuts out of every nation on earth. Who have crowns of gold and white robes,

it is raptured saints my friend

And the above would go right along with what John said regarding the church in Rev.1:5-6

"To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood, who has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and power forever and ever! Amen."

 

[lamad]

Interpreting the the 6th seal as initiating the wrath of God is an on-going error. The reason for this is that expositors see the statement which says "For the great day of their wrath has come and who is able to stand?" So, they interpret God's wrath has starting at the 6th seal, which is short-sightedness on their part. The words "has come" is in the 'aorist indicative active' tense and so the announcement of God's wrath includes the previous five seals as well. I would also point out that it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals and are all therefore all apart of God's wrath.

A Greek Aorist tense verse really shows no timing at all. Here are all the uses of this same Greek word: ἦλθεν
Strong's says "Verb - Second Aorist Active Indicative - 3rd Person Singular"

MOST of the KJV uses are past tense, but not all.

Jde 1:14 - And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh G2064 with ten thousands of his saints,

Jhn 16:21 - A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: G2064 but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

Jhn 3:2 - The same came G2064 to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art G2064 ➔ a teacher come G2064 from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Luk 9:56 - For the Son of man is G2064 ➔ not come G2064 to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.


Greek Septuagint useage

2Sa 24:21 - And Araunah said, Wherefore is my lord the king come to his servant? And David said, To buy the threshingfloor of thee, to build an altar unto the LORD, that the plague may be stayed from the people.

2Ki 8:1 - Then spake Elisha unto the woman, whose son he had restored to life, saying, Arise, and go thou and thine household, and sojourn wheresoever thou canst sojourn: for the LORD hath called for a famine; and it shall also come upon the land seven years.

Jer 46:20 - Egypt is like a very fair heifer, but destruction cometh; it cometh out of the north.

Even if the intent of the Author was that wrath is come was past tense, it could well mean a second before. It is only human imagination that it means back up to the first seal!

Anyway, if we leave the first seal in its context, it was opened around 32 AD. God has no wrath then.

 

[lamad]

Revelation 4:1 along with the fact that the word ekklesia/church no longer appears after it was previously used 19 times, is a God-given clue that the church is no longer on the earth from Rev.4:1 onward.



The only reason that you reject this, as do others, is because it doesn't fit in with your interpretation. This is how it is with many. They adopt a teaching and they can receive no other message and reject it when some one comes along with the true answer.

The only reason that you reject this, as do others, is because it doesn't fit in with your interpretation.
This is just one more theory of yours - a guess and a wrong guess at that.

The truth is, it was a guess for the first person that thought that Rev. 4:1 is the rapture. Any beginning reader would say it was John caught up, not in our future, but of course while John was still alive.

The truth is, Jesus spent months teaching me HIS INTENT in chapters 4 & 5.

Since you disagree, I will show you His questions and give you a change to answer them yourself: Notice what Jesus said to me if I could not answer correctly: "I would never understand." I struggled with these questions for maybe 2 months of intense study, several hours a day. Finally He had to assist me.

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

I will await your answers.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

[..[/QUOTE]

when John is weeping it’s because there’s no none who worthy to open the seals . Then Christ suddenly appears to
Johns beholding in heaven as having been crucified and yet is alive.

you then see the glorification of Jesus Christ when all of heaven and earth and the elders and four beasts all bow and begin singing the new song ( New Testament) think about the new song and what it’s saying it’s the gospel

“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: ( John 5: 22) for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the ( new) earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:9-10‬ ‭


In chapter four you don’t see the lamb crucified because it’s the Old Testament , in chapter 5 it’s all Judgement and authority being given to Christ in heaven and over all the earth ( Matthew 28:28-20) the Risen Christ now announcing all
Power and authority in creation is his after he rose from the dead .

The lamb appearing at the center of the throne is Christ after he was born and lived on earth and was crucified and rose and was taken into heaven. And look at the reason why this all took place

“And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:4-5‬ ‭

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what that’s showing is this

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭

so the timing of the opening of the seals is the changing of the covenants changing from the old song of Moses , to the new song of Christ from the ot word to the nt word and covenant blood

instead of sacrificed animals we have the lamb of God , we aren’t singing an old song but the new one in heaven from death to life eternal because Christ has overcome and given us his spirit

the seals are a perpetual thing planned from the beginning of creation and are opened in heaven it’s not something we are going to know or see but we are experiencing the effects of those opened seals on earth they are opened in heaven and the effect on earth is known

“And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:1, 3, 7-8‬ ‭

so if you notice each time one of the four beasts speaks , a seal is opened saying come and see ( revelation )

the. We see those for have power over a quarter of the earth to
Kill by the three deadly judgements of God in the prophets and the fourth being pursued by the sword he said he would send out after his covenant was broken

later you see that now four angels are standing on the four corners of the earth withholding the destruction of the world until Gods people are sealed. So four beasts in heaven , four opened seals , over four parts of the earth and now on earth

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you have the understanding of the other prophets to at these are the four soirits of the heavens he would send into the earth

zechariah sees four chariots carries by four different rly colored horses and asks

“Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭6:4-5‬ ‭

so you have these thing happening perpetually throughout creation is my point things in heaven transcend all
Manner of time time is only applicable to earth. So timing developed purely from revelation isn’t really going to work at least for my belief

four angels or spirits he sent into the world to
Observe things in zechariahs vision , and to hold back destruction of the world in johns vision eventually this comes forth after the gospel is preached to all and hey are sealed who believe

“Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭9:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and that even ties into the heaven lot war that a third of heaven turned against God so now we see a third of the earth being killed revelations a very deep but very spiritually discerned book i think there’s a certain slow
Unfolding or even perpetual nature to things on earth timing wise but it’s what’s in heaven that matters

 

[lamad]

About the Aorist tense as see at the 6th seal: the Day of His wrath is come..."

Strongs tells us this is a second Aorist indicative

About Aorist verbs in general:

The aorist tense (and its grammatical variation, the second aorist tense) has no clear equivalent in English. It is characterized by its emphasis on precise accordance with details, without consideration for past, present or future time!

The aorist tense is also used sufficiently often to very clearly refer to the present tense and to the future tense to demonstrate that it cannot be limited to the past tense. It is used by the writers (and the speakers who are quoted) of the New Testament when they were concerned with emphasising that their statements were correct and precise.

...over 41% of all Greek verbs in the New Testament are in the aorist tense. The aorist tense is the most used tense in the Greek text of the New Testament.


https://www.franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=128

This makes sense because the meaning or definition of "aorist" is "undefined."

Here is some examples of some Greek Aorist Indicative verb that are NOT past tense:

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.2106 εὐδοκέω

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth,2928 κρύπτω

Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am 2106 εὐδοκέω well pleased; hear ye him.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is 5053 both dead 5053 and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

All of these (and there are more) show a Greek Aorist Indicative verb that is not a past tense verb.

The truth is, Aorist Indicative are "undefined" as far as timing. Most translators just make them past tense, because there is no accurate English tense.

Therefore, when John wrote, "The day of His wrath is come: we really cannot tell if past, present or future." Instead, we go by the first verse wrath is mentioned as to when it starts.

 

[lamad]

What did they say

Rev 5:
And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

so your right in the fact I did not guess, I just stated what the word said, they are redeemed sainuts out of every nation on earth. Who have crowns of gold and white robes,

it is raptured saints my friend

No one knows who the 24 elders are or were. People have been disagreeing on who they are for a long time. Look for a different translation.


ASV
And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
AMP
And they sang a new song [of glorious redemption], saying, “Worthy and deserving are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

CSB
And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered, and you purchased people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.
CEB
They took up a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slain, and by your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
CJB
and they sang a new song, “You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals; because you were slaughtered; at the cost of blood you ransomed for God persons from every tribe, language, people and nation.

There are many more I could show.

Nice try!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No one knows who the 24 elders are or were. People have been disagreeing on who they are for a long time. Look for a different translation.

ASV
And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
AMP
And they sang a new song [of glorious redemption], saying, “Worthy and deserving are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
CSB
And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered, and you purchased people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.
CEB
They took up a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slain, and by your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
CJB
and they sang a new song, “You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals; because you were slaughtered; at the cost of blood you ransomed for God persons from every tribe, language, people and nation.

There are many more I could show.

Nice try!

Or Unlike you, I could look up the word in the origional text. In doing so. I would find the word "people" is no where to be found. The word used is Ego, which in the greek is 1st person singular. And interpreted I, Us, We etc etc.

Nice try. But you should do more research.

 

[lamad]

when John is weeping it’s because there’s no none who worthy to open the seals . Then Christ suddenly appears to
Johns beholding in heaven as having been crucified and yet is alive.

you then see the glorification of Jesus Christ when all of heaven and earth and the elders and four beasts all bow and begin singing the new song ( New Testament) think about the new song and what it’s saying it’s the gospel

“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: ( John 5: 22) for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the ( new) earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:9-10‬ ‭


In chapter four you don’t see the lamb crucified because it’s the Old Testament , in chapter 5 it’s all Judgement and authority being given to Christ in heaven and over all the earth ( Matthew 28:28-20) the Risen Christ now announcing all
Power and authority in creation is his after he rose from the dead .

The lamb appearing at the center of the throne is Christ after he was born and lived on earth and was crucified and rose and was taken into heaven. And look at the reason why this all took place

“And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:4-5‬ ‭

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what that’s showing is this

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭

so the timing of the opening of the seals is the changing of the covenants changing from the old song of Moses , to the new song of Christ from the ot word to the nt word and covenant blood

instead of sacrificed animals we have the lamb of God , we aren’t singing an old song but the new one in heaven from death to life eternal because Christ has overcome and given us his spirit

the seals are a perpetual thing planned from the beginning of creation and are opened in heaven it’s not something we are going to know or see but we are experiencing the effects of those opened seals on earth they are opened in heaven and the effect on earth is known

“And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:1, 3, 7-8‬ ‭

so if you notice each time one of the four beasts speaks , a seal is opened saying come and see ( revelation )

the. We see those for have power over a quarter of the earth to
Kill by the three deadly judgements of God in the prophets and the fourth being pursued by the sword he said he would send out after his covenant was broken

later you see that now four angels are standing on the four corners of the earth withholding the destruction of the world until Gods people are sealed. So four beasts in heaven , four opened seals , over four parts of the earth and now on earth

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you have the understanding of the other prophets to at these are the four soirits of the heavens he would send into the earth

zechariah sees four chariots carries by four different rly colored horses and asks

“Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭6:4-5‬ ‭

so you have these thing happening perpetually throughout creation is my point things in heaven transcend all
Manner of time time is only applicable to earth. So timing developed purely from revelation isn’t really going to work at least for my belief

four angels or spirits he sent into the world to
Observe things in zechariahs vision , and to hold back destruction of the world in johns vision eventually this comes forth after the gospel is preached to all and hey are sealed who believe

“Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭9:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and that even ties into the heaven lot war that a third of heaven turned against God so now we see a third of the earth being killed revelations a very deep but very spiritually discerned book i think there’s a certain slow
Unfolding or even perpetual nature to things on earth timing wise but it’s what’s in heaven that matters

when John is weeping it’s because there’s no none who worthy to open the seals .

Then Christ suddenly appears to Johns beholding in heaven as having been crucified and yet is alive.

Right: John "wept much" because "no man was found." That search ended in failure.

WHY did it end in failure. Can you explain why?

Next, "stuff" happened between John weeping and Christ suddenly appearing. You left that out.

In chapter four you don’t see the lamb crucified because it’s the Old Testament

Not bad! But no, in the Old I think Jesus as the second person of the Godhead would have still be seen at the right hand of the Father. If we consider eternities past to eternities future, all that time and beyond time, there was one tiny speck of time when the second person of the Godhead was NOT at the Farther's right hand, and that was during the 32 years He was on earth or under the earth. So chapter 4 can only be while Christ was down here.

the seals are a perpetual thing planned from the beginning of creation and are opened in heaven it’s not something we are going to know or see but we are experiencing the effects of those opened seals on earth they are opened in heaven and the effect on earth is known

I agree this book with 7 seals was created in the court room of heaven but maybe not before creation. I would say after Adam's sin. Why? Because I think seals 2-4 show Satan's influence: I think he demanded of God that if God send out the church, he have a crack at stopping the gospel inside that 1/4 of the earth.

Since I believe seal 1 is the church sent out with the gospel, I thing we can see the effects.

We see those for have power over a quarter of the earth to
Kill by the three deadly judgements of God in the prophets and the fourth being pursued by the sword he said he would send out after his covenant was broken

Brilliant! Few people see that the 1/4 is how God limited their theater of operation.

Perhaps you missed something: it is only the last three horses and riders that fall under "power was given unto them..." These, the Red, the Black and the Pale ride together to try and stop the advance of the gospel, but the white horse and rider IS the gospel.

the four spirits of the heavens he would send into the earth

I don't think these four horses and riders are connected to the four seen by Zech. Their purposes are different.

So timing developed purely from revelation isn’t really going to work at least for my belief

So you don't see time stamps in Revelation?
Jesus prevailing to become worthy tells me Jesus just rose from the dead.
Jesus suddenly appearing in heaven (shortly after He prevailed over death) is the moment of His first ascension.
The 6th seal is the start of the Day of His wrath.
The 7th seal is the marker for the start of the 70th week.
The 7th trumpet is the marker for the midpoint of the week.
The 7th vial is the marker that ends the 70th week.

I see time and the movement of time all through Revelation.

and that even ties into the heaven lot war that a third of heaven turned against God

I see NO connection between the war in heaven (before Adam) and the 6th trumpet where 1/3 of the people are killed - except the 1/3. I don't think that is significant. I do wonder if the 6th trumpet is the parable of the tares being carried out.

I was impressed by your post.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No one knows who the 24 elders are or were. People have been disagreeing on who they are for a long time. Look for a different translation.
ASV
And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
AMP
And they sang a new song [of glorious redemption], saying, “Worthy and deserving are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
CSB
And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered, and you purchased people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.
CEB
They took up a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slain, and by your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
CJB
and they sang a new song, “You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals; because you were slaughtered; at the cost of blood you ransomed for God persons from every tribe, language, people and nation.

There are many more I could show.

Consider the following post (at LINK) where I post the info provided from the manuscript evidence, (mss) available on Rev5:9 (verse 9):

Post #64 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/revelation-study.198143/post-4522228


Would like to hear back from you on this point, if you would. = )

Nice try!

 

[lamad]

Or Unlike you, I could look up the word in the origional text. In doing so. I would find the word "people" is no where to be found. The word used is Ego, which in the greek is 1st person singular. And interpreted I, Us, We etc etc.

Nice try. But you should do more research.

Did you research the other Greek Texts? They are different.

Byzantine Majority
kai adousin wdhn kainhn legonteV axioV ei labein to biblion kai anoixai taV sfragidaV autou oti esfaghV kai hgorasaV tw qew hmas en tw aimati sou ek pashV fulhV kai glwsshV kai laou kai eqnouV

Alexandrian
kai adousin wdhn kainhn legonteV axioV ei labein to biblion kai anoixai taV sfragidaV autou oti esfaghV kai hgorasaV tw qew en tw aimati sou ek pashV fulhV kai glwsshV kai laou kai eqnouV

Hort and Westcott
kai adousin wdhn kainhn legonteV axioV ei labein to biblion kai anoixai taV sfragidaV autou oti esfaghV kai hgorasaV tw qew en tw aimati sou ek pashV fulhV kai glwsshV kai laou kai eqnouV

English translations reflecting the difference in Greek Texts:

King James Version
5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

American Standard Version
5:9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

Did you not notice this:

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Who is "they?"
the four beasts and four and twenty elders

Sorry, but "us" does not fit because the four beasts were not purchased by His blood. I think the other Greek Texts are more accurate here.

If you are trying to prove the rapture by the 24 elders, it is a very round about way! Why not study Paul and find out from him that the rapture comes just before the Day of the Lord? In Revelation that would be between the 5th and 6th seal.