50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

We've been over this lesson in many past posts:

--Verse 24 says, "THEN [G1534 - eita] the end" (the word "cometh / comes" is not in the Greek text, here);

--this "THEN [G1534 - eita]" word is a "SEQUENCE" word only, with NO time-element attached (unlike another "then" word, "then [tote - G5119]" like is used in 2Th2:8a);

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-24.htm ;

--so *this* text is not conveying "THEN *immediately* the end," but rather "THEN *sequentially* the end";

--the remainder of the context tells what must take place within that time-frame intervening ("FOR He must reign TILL...");

--and that is the EXACT "SEQUENCE" that Isaiah 24:21-22[23] shows, where the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words of that text PARALLELS the Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 passage and its timing, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth / Armageddon;

--then Isaiah 24:21-22[23]'s SECOND "PUNISH" word of that text clearly comes after an intervening "time-period" which is identical to the SEQUENCE issues between Rev19 & 20;

...not to mention is identical to the SEQUENCE issues in our present text, 1Cor15:24-28;

...not to mention is identical to the Daniel 7:25,27 text, where v.27 (after a specific time-period in v.25 / 2nd half of trib) says, "the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High" which is also told of in v.22 "and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom"... where v.22's wording corresponds precisely with Revelation 20:4a "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them"

--EACH of these passages agree regarding the SEQUENCE issues

--and in Zech14:8 it says "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: IN SUMMER AND IN WINTER SHALL IT BE." Several verses using the phrase "IN THAT DAY" indicating "a time-period" (i.e. "an era"), rather than meaning merely "a singular 24-hr day";

...and vv.11-12 are showing a CONTRAST between those who will LIVE (and exist following all "destruction") and those who will NOT live (those who "fought against Jerusalem"--SAME AS IN the Rev19:21 text I supplied above), where those who go on to LIVE in that time-period are given the instructions found in vv.16-19 (re: keeping the feast of Tabernacles... in Jerusalem... "from year to year" i.e yearly)


This text is governed by the "WE"... (speaking ONLY of "believers" here)

...so that, this text using the phrase "the dead" is not speaking of "the dead [/unsaved / 'lost' from all time periods]"... this CONTEXT is speaking ONLY of the "WE" (the SAVED / BELIEVERS)



As in the aforementioned paragraph I put, this text is governed by the "WE" and also (here ^ ) by the word "THIS"... "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (speaking only of: "the DEAD IN Christ" [the "WE" of this wider context]; and the "we which are ALIVE and remain" [also the "WE" of this wider context]--meaning, NONE of the "UNsaved / UNbelievers / LOST" are being spoken of in THIS CONTEXT)

"""THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (speaking only of: "the DEAD IN Christ" """


Why would you say that?

What basis?

 

[Absolutely]

2 Corinthians 5:17 -

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new [G2537] creation. The old things have passed away; behold, the new [G2537] has come into being.

King James Bible
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new [G2537] creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new [G2537].


[this was true of you and of me the moment we "believed"/"trusted Christ for salvation"]



[same word used in 2Pet3:13 and Rev21:1 of the "NH&NE"]

so we now have glorified bodies?

Our bodies go through zero change at the rapture ??

 

[Absolutely]

I am going with what the passages say in a straightforward manner, e.g. 'after the tribulation.' You are trying to create an allegorical interpretation to contradict tge direct literal teachings. I do not accept allegorical interpretations that contradict the plain sense of the text.z

No we both believe Jesus returns
After the gt.

 

[Absolutely]

No we both believe Jesus returns
After the gt.

Double post

 

[Absolutely]

I am going with what the passages say in a straightforward manner, e.g. 'after the tribulation.' You are trying to create an allegorical interpretation to contradict tge direct literal teachings. I do not accept allegorical interpretations that contradict the plain sense of the text.z

The issue you skipped is...
When was lot rescued???
After the judgement (your model)

Lot and noah are real stories
Not parables.
Jesus was using REAL examples

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

so we now have glorified bodies?

Our bodies go through zero change at the rapture ??

Not my point. = )

My point is (basically) the same point I was making when speaking of 2 Peter 3:10-12... that one should consider the ENTIRE CONTEXT of both chpts of Isaiah 34 & 35 (not merely 34:4 , one verse extracted out-from/apart-from its context), to grasp Peter's point and why he's using this verse in his 2Pet3 context... and that the "IN WHICH" phrase he uses is a lengthy duration of time WHEREIN *MUCH* will transpire (same as the "IN WHICH" used in Acts 17:31 doesn't mean He will only "govern/judge" for a "split-second" nor a "mere singular 24-hr day" alone).


A lot of time intervenes between when we became "a new creation / a new creature" and the time when our bodies will ultimately be "changed" to be "like unto His glorious body"... yet I see no one complaining about this fact.

 

[Absolutely]

Everyone knows it is Jesus who opens the seals. Of course He was there; He ascended around 32 AD and this was probably around 95 AD, so Jesus had been there for perhaps 60 some years. The point was, He was NOT SEEN in the vision.


No one questions that he was there AFTER He showed up in the throne room in chapter 5. When He was not there is in chapter 4. I will ask you the same exact question Jesus asked me when He taught me these things:

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. In fact, Stephen saw me there. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

This is from Jesus Christ, the Author of the book. He KNOWS the intent He had when He caused John to write. His question makes good sense: this is HIS BOOK and HIS revealing. That makes it all the more strange that He was not seen at the right hand of the Father where Stephen saw Him. I did not eat pizza. I was not dreaming, I was wide awake. I heard His voice and His words. I might as well show you His other two questions.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?” [I had been asking Him why we needed to know that John wept, and why much.]

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Before He asked me these questions He had said, about John weeping, "It shows timing." I could not find "timing" anywhere in these two chapters, so I kept bugging Him. After a week or so He said, "It also shows the movement of time. "

By this time I had five things He had said to me that I could not answer or find an answer to in these two chapters. After two or three frustrating weeks, He showed me how to answer. But for now, I will leave it for the readers to answer - if they can.

Here is where He suddenly "shows up" in the throne room:

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Notice that this is when He shows up and this is when He sent the Holy Spirit down. As Jesus said, "IT SHOWS TIMING." Make no mistake, the lamb was not there a moment before. God is showing John EXACTLY what He wants John to see.

I understand. The seals are sealing the BOOK that will allow the trumpets to be sounded and it is the 7th trumpet that gives the earth back to Jesus Christ, the rightful owner. The seals are to prevent anyone but the rightful owner to open this book.

"""No one questions that he was there AFTER He showed up in the throne room in chapter 5. When He was not there is in chapter 4. I will ask you the same exact question Jesus asked me when He taught me these things:"""

Not sure the point you are making.

Seems to me you are saying Jesus rose from the dead and ascended from earth in rev 5

 

[lamad]

You keep changing "revealed", to , "in full power and years into his reign".

Like i said, you are projecting that with zero basis.

Then i say "show me proof"

And you re project the same assumption
I can make any jump with anyone.

But i need it to harmonize and line up with the rapture verses.

Incidentally, the rapture verses are all peacetime with buying and selling...normal everyday life.

By the time you say the rapture happens, the four horseman have destroyed the economy and 1/3 of the planet and people.

And btw the innumerable number( billions slaughtered) is before the ac is seated in the temple.

You make a good point, but you are mistaken with the 4 horsemen. NOT the four horsemen for they started at the early church. The first half of the 70th week will be devastation caused by the first 6 trumpet judgments, then the last 7 vial judgments. There will not be much left.

The rapture may well take half the world's population when we consider all the children caught up with the saints.
Then the earthquakes will certainly kill some.
Then the 6th trumpet will take 1/3 more.
Then the days of GT will see the murder of perhaps millions of those who refuse the mark.
Then the vials will certainly take more.

How could ANYONE be thinking and saying "peace and safety" (the time of the rapture) after all that?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"""THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (speaking only of: "the DEAD IN Christ" """
Why would you say that?
What basis?

[you left out part of what I'd put, so in this ^ post, it does not reflect correct idea]

The CONTEXT of this section (1Cor15:51-54) is governed by the "WE" of v.51 (Paul was tasked with "Behold, *I* SHEW YOU a mystery"), IOW, Paul is not addressing "the dead [/UNSAVED]" (he is addressing "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" in this context) -

--"THIS [G3778 - touto] corruptible" speaks of "the DEAD IN Christ" ('the dead shall be raised INCORRUPTIBLE' of v.52);

--"THIS [G3778 - touto] mortal" speaks of the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" (also 'IN Christ"--the STILL-ALIVE portion of 'US [/WE],' ALSO at the point in time being referenced; --"and we shall be changed"); and "THIS mortal" (component) is ALSO what Paul is speaking about in 2Cor5:3-4 (at the same point in time being referenced in this 1Cor15:51-54 context, i.e. "our Rapture" point in time, at which "setting" [if you will] our "change" [to glorified bodies] will take place);

--BOTH of these ^ (bold and underlined above) are reflected in the (v.51b-52), "but *we* shall ALL be *changed*, in a moment, **in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and..."





[**the phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, at sundown [/dark]"--IOW, "*WE*" / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (this CONTEXT) will NOT step one foot inside the time-period of "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" that Paul wrote about in 1Th5:2-3 and following, in that text (re: "the DOTL's *ARRIVAL*")--Paul's writings ALL harmonize... and also correspond with Jesus' words, as I've spelled out in past posts]

 

[cv5]

We've been over this lesson in many past posts:

--Verse 24 says, "THEN [G1534 - eita] the end" (the word "cometh / comes" is not in the Greek text, here);

--this "THEN [G1534 - eita]" word is a "SEQUENCE" word only, with NO time-element attached (unlike another "then" word, "then [tote - G5119]" like is used in 2Th2:8a);

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-24.htm ;

--so *this* text is not conveying "THEN *immediately* the end," but rather "THEN *sequentially* the end";

--the remainder of the context tells what must take place within that time-frame intervening ("FOR He must reign TILL...");

--and that is the EXACT "SEQUENCE" that Isaiah 24:21-22[23] shows, where the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words of that text PARALLELS the Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 passage and its timing, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth / Armageddon;

--then Isaiah 24:21-22[23]'s SECOND "PUNISH" word of that text clearly comes after an intervening "time-period" which is identical to the SEQUENCE issues between Rev19 & 20;

...not to mention is identical to the SEQUENCE issues in our present text, 1Cor15:24-28;

...not to mention is identical to the Daniel 7:25,27 text, where v.27 (after a specific time-period in v.25 / 2nd half of trib) says, "the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High" which is also told of in v.22 "and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom"... where v.22's wording corresponds precisely with Revelation 20:4a "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them"

--EACH of these passages agree regarding the SEQUENCE issues

--and in Zech14:8 it says "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: IN SUMMER AND IN WINTER SHALL IT BE." Several verses using the phrase "IN THAT DAY" indicating "a time-period" (i.e. "an era"), rather than meaning merely "a singular 24-hr day";

...and vv.11-12 are showing a CONTRAST between those who will LIVE (and exist following all "destruction") and those who will NOT live (those who "fought against Jerusalem"--SAME AS IN the Rev19:21 text I supplied above), where those who go on to LIVE in that time-period are given the instructions found in vv.16-19 (re: keeping the feast of Tabernacles... in Jerusalem... "from year to year" i.e yearly)


This text is governed by the "WE"... (speaking ONLY of "believers" here)

...so that, this text using the phrase "the dead" is not speaking of "the dead [/unsaved / 'lost' from all time periods]"... this CONTEXT is speaking ONLY of the "WE" (the SAVED / BELIEVERS)



As in the aforementioned paragraph I put, this text is governed by the "WE" and also (here ^ ) by the word "THIS"... "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (speaking only of: "the DEAD IN Christ" [the "WE" of this wider context]; and the "we which are ALIVE and remain" [also the "WE" of this wider context]--meaning, NONE of the "UNsaved / UNbelievers / LOST" are being spoken of in THIS CONTEXT)

<<<This text is governed by the "WE"... (speaking ONLY of "believers" here)>>>

Absolutely correct. Whenever Paul's speaks about our "gathering", His "appearing", His "revelation", and even His "parousia".....and his intended audience is the Church (believers of this present Church age), then he is without exception speaking to our rapture.

The absolutely stark and sharp distinction between the Church, gentiles and Israel cannot possibly be overstated. Blurring these distinctions is where all the trouble originates IMO.

 

[cv5]

Unreadable Chaos!

Not so......rather a symphony of truth, light and beauty....

 

[Absolutely]

The red exes have progressed into comedy.

drive by with zero basis.

 

[Absolutely]

Not so......rather a symphony of truth, light and beauty....

They'll be no living with him now

 

[Absolutely]

[you left out part of what I'd put, so in this ^ post, it does not reflect correct idea]

The CONTEXT of this section (1Cor15:51-54) is governed by the "WE" of v.51 (Paul was tasked with "Behold, *I* SHEW YOU a mystery"), IOW, Paul is not addressing "the dead [/UNSAVED]" (he is addressing "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" in this context) -

--"THIS [G3778 - touto] corruptible" speaks of "the DEAD IN Christ" ('the dead shall be raised INCORRUPTIBLE' of v.52);

--"THIS [G3778 - touto] mortal" speaks of the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" (also 'IN Christ"--the STILL-ALIVE portion of 'US [/WE],' ALSO at the point in time being referenced; --"and we shall be changed"); and "THIS mortal" (component) is ALSO what Paul is speaking about in 2Cor5:3-4 (at the same point in time being referenced in this 1Cor15:51-54 context, i.e. "our Rapture" point in time, at which "setting" [if you will] our "change" [to glorified bodies] will take place);

--BOTH of these ^ (bold and underlined above) are reflected in the (v.51b-52), "but *we* shall ALL be *changed*, in a moment, **in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and..."





[**the phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, at sundown [/dark]"--IOW, "*WE*" / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (this CONTEXT) will NOT step one foot inside the time-period of "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" that Paul wrote about in 1Th5:2-3 and following, in that text (re: "the DOTL's *ARRIVAL*")--Paul's writings ALL harmonize... and also correspond with Jesus' words, as I've spelled out in past posts]

it is ridiculously plain.

ridiculously simple

over magnifying every word is not productive IMO

Most people will be confused.

 

[cv5]

[you left out part of what I'd put, so in this ^ post, it does not reflect correct idea]

The CONTEXT of this section (1Cor15:51-54) is governed by the "WE" of v.51 (Paul was tasked with "Behold, *I* SHEW YOU a mystery"), IOW, Paul is not addressing "the dead [/UNSAVED]" (he is addressing "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" in this context) -

--"THIS [G3778 - touto] corruptible" speaks of "the DEAD IN Christ" ('the dead shall be raised INCORRUPTIBLE' of v.52);

--"THIS [G3778 - touto] mortal" speaks of the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" (also 'IN Christ"--the STILL-ALIVE portion of 'US [/WE],' ALSO at the point in time being referenced; --"and we shall be changed"); and "THIS mortal" (component) is ALSO what Paul is speaking about in 2Cor5:3-4 (at the same point in time being referenced in this 1Cor15:51-54 context, i.e. "our Rapture" point in time, at which "setting" [if you will] our "change" [to glorified bodies] will take place);

--BOTH of these ^ (bold and underlined above) are reflected in the (v.51b-52), "but *we* shall ALL be *changed*, in a moment, **in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and..."





[**the phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, at sundown [/dark]"--IOW, "*WE*" / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (this CONTEXT) will NOT step one foot inside the time-period of "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" that Paul wrote about in 1Th5:2-3 and following, in that text (re: "the DOTL's *ARRIVAL*")--Paul's writings ALL harmonize... and also correspond with Jesus' words, as I've spelled out in past posts]

<<<the phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, at sundown>>>
That was definitely worth the price of admission.

 

[cv5]

They'll be no living with him now

I just hope I'm not impacting his eternal reward in any meaningful way...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

it is ridiculously plain.
ridiculously simple
over magnifying every word is not productive IMO
Most people will be confused.

Most (rather, 'many') ppl ARE confused, when reading this text, because they skim right past the word "this" in this text, and consequently [incorrectly] believe the phrase used in this text, "the dead," refers to "the UNSAVED [-dead, having died]". But that is not the Subject that this CONTEXT is covering, here.


[namely, those who see only "A GENERAL JUDGMENT / A GENERAL RESURRECTION," at one point in time for ALL PPL EVER]

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I don't try to connect dots. I just read the words of Scripture. Very simple and clear.

But unless you connect the dots you will always be at sea without a compass.

My point is that "connecting dots" leads to some guessing and speculation. iow, interpretation. That's why I prefer saying with plain verses that communicate without the need for "trying" to figure out what the author meant.

Of course there are clear verses where the dots absolutely are easy to connect.

 

[cv5]

Most (rather, 'many') ppl ARE confused, when reading this text, because they skim right past the word "this" in this text, and consequently [incorrectly] believe the phrase used in this text, "the dead," refers to "the UNSAVED [-dead, having died]". But that is not the Subject that this CONTEXT is covering, here.


[namely, those who see only "A GENERAL JUDGMENT / A GENERAL RESURRECTION," at one point in time for ALL PPL EVER]

Absolutely correct.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so IN Christ all shall be made alive.

Certainly not a general resurrection for unbelievers....all in Christ shall be made alive.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are totally mistaken. The Parable of the Ten Virgins teaches the Rapture of the Church. Christ comes for His Church as a Bridegroom comes for His Bride.

That's an assumption. It's about being ready when Christ returns. For reward, not salvation. But since you think so, what specifically represents the rapture in that parable?